We’ve convened a Guft-e-Guh for the Cambridge coloured community.
A very interesting story was relayed. One of the kids is from a very middle class Hindu (cobbler) neighbourhood in Patiala (Sikh city).
They mentioned the fear that the Hindus felt when they saw men in Muslim costumes walk through the neighbourhood (Patiala is of course post-Partition).
One time 4 Kashmiris were surrounded by 50 of the men (the families would call everyone inside) and it transpired they were selling walnuts.
I applauded the narrator for sharing this important and heartfelt story; the Left-Liberal-Lutyens crowd just like to shade everyone as progressive or bigoted.
What is interesting is that the healing of the South Asian psyche is only possible through transparent and honest conversation.
I think I’ve alienated many people tonight since I’m ideologically flexible; as a libertarian I value free speech and the “battle of ideas.”
My pronunciation is in between the first two. There is some overlap between Persian and Pakistani (Indo-Persian) names of course. So I usually pronounce the name in the way I first heard it or heard it most.
Of course the “Hindi” pronunciation is different where the N in Jahanara is nasalised rather than pronounced.
The personal name “Jahan” seems to have retired from Persian and instead migrated to Hindustan. So I’m inclined to defer to the Urdu version of the name but nasaling the N is very unnatural to me as it reminds of the time at Urdu class. One of the students was counting the Urdu numbers with a Punjabi nasalisation and the teacher started chuckling.
I dropped the Urdu class after one semester even though I was making the fastest progress; Persian & Urdu are simmering languages for me, it’s easy to get to fluency but English almost always takes over.
As a final note; Urdu, by any other name would be just as sweet, but Persian is sweeter (I’ve mauled Iqbal & Shakespeare in a single sentence).
The irony is that Urdu was called Hindi since Urdu was initially used to refer the Persian of Shahjahanabad. Urdu is the regularisation of a Hindustani standard that came about through Amir Khusrao but was obviously was called Hindi as it was the local language.
As a final aside it is just astounding the extent to which India’s medieval history is in Persian. I *knew* that the official language was Persian but never understood what that meant entirely. The Indo-Muslim rulers were copious writers and along with their monuments left mountains of documents (Shah Alam’s unfinished Perso-Urdu verse ran to 600+ pages).
The reason Pakistanis and Urdu-speakers go on and on about Middle Eastern forebears is because their ancestors were certainly in that milieu for centuries. It’s a vestigial memory that has persisted.
Of course one can never deny Pakistan’s aristocratic heritage when our dear Captain decides to wear a cheesy Shalwar Kameez in an audience with HM the Queen:
When meeting Royalty one should at least be aware of the sartorial graces. It looks like something he would wear to a shaadi in the Pind. Also Virat Kohli may be brash but his socks, shoes and pants do not go together at all!
If anything learn from the wonderful Noorie Abbas in how to dress:
ISI/RAW have trained this vixen well. Interestingly though the choice of a Sari was very unorthodox; Pakistan girls her age will never wear a Sari to a formal event. I know that the older generation in Pakistan wear it (one socialite NGO makes a point of wearing it everywhere) but it’s pretty much died down; I wouldn’t be surprised if Noorie has inadvertently kick started it.
Her pastel shawl and gray-blue top set off extremely well. It was an interesting thing in the Prof. Devji podcast that the main gripe Hindutva had against Muslims pre-1947 was their “aristocratic connotations”. After Independence when most of these people went across to Pakistan; the image of the Muslim changed to gangster and poor.
Pakistan’s structural inequality, which we explored in our educational podcasts, means that even though there is a very high National Asabiyah (in core Pakistan; East of the Indus); the Islamicate class structure is very much dominant.
So you have these extremes in Pakistan, which are not so apparent in other countries. Since Bangladesh shackled the yoke; it’s made tremendous strides since it seems so much more egalitarian (it may also be that Perso-Urdu culture is inherently hierarchical considering its origins despite a strong socialist tradition of Urdu Poetry).
The rest of the Pakistan nation is as lemmings off a cliff:
We are doing a podcast with Prof. Devji right now.
He’s a Professor of Indian Studies at Oxford and head of the Asian Studies.
Really lovely and dense; will be released in June. Professor Devji’s knowledge is really impressive..
Kushal and I had a *friendly* shouting match (we get on quite well actually) because I used the title “Maharajah Modi,” thereby undermining Indian democratic traditions (he alluded to India’s modern Maharani but I found her the most effective post-independence leader).
Interestingly enough Professor Devji just alluded that Hindutva, colloquially, to use royal titles for its leaders.
Interesting as an aside that the Left-Liberal elite (the “Lutyens crowd” in Indian parlance) is completely entrenched in Cambridge; even soft-BJP types have to tone it down otherwise they get shouted at. Lots of self-censorship..
Zach, please back this up with facts – “This tirade has gotten old – India has rejected her Muslim heritage and culture (not socially but politically).” <br /><br />Indian history books discuss Muslim rule at length – the Delhi Sultanate, the Mughal dynasty, and myriad Muslim dynasties from the Deccan. Monuments built by Muslim kings are well preserved and regarded as a heritage of all Indians. Mosques are preserved and new ones are being built all the time. Hindi/Urdu – a heritage of Islamic rule – is becoming more widely spoken every year since independence. <br /><br />How is this similar to what has happened in Pakistan?
As you all know I call out Pakistan and Islam on a fairly regular basis especially liberalstanis who baulk at the no-go zone of Pakistani culture.
The test I would devise to test whether a Hinditva values liberalism or Hinduism is the Babri test.
Do you believe Babri Masjid should be rebuilt brick for brick as it stood pre-92?
If you don’t then that means you are a Hindu before you are a liberal. It isn’t a bad thing but don’t pretend that your liberality is so magnanimous so as to extend to your cowering minorities.
By way of comparison it’s pretty obvious that Al-Aqsa Mosque stands on top of the Old Temple (a bit like Babri Masjid). If a mob were to destroy Al-Aqsa tomorrow would the Israeli government be right in apportioning the site?
Another BP Podcast is up. You can listen on Libsyn, iTunes, Spotify, and Stitcher. Probably the easiest way to keep up the podcast since we don’t have a regular schedule is to subscribe at one of the links above.
You can also support the podcast as a patron (the primary benefit now is that you get the podcasts considerably earlier than everyone else…).
We speak to Jahanara, a Cambridge student who has extensive experience with the Delhi education system and who happens to be an Indian Muslim.
I’m joined by MJ & LV (this is part 2 of Episode 38; I plan to do part 3 with Kushal of Carvaka) as we discuss the ramifications for India; it was a balanced podcast in the sense I felt that we respected all viewpoints and respectfully disagreed but enjoyed listening to one another.
As I alluded to in yesterday’s post; Jahanara is the “ideal Indian Muslim” by Indian standards. I don’t want to delve into her life details, to protect her privacy, but I can’t think of a prouder or more assimilated Indian. But it seems to me that her “Muslimness” is now almost being foisted on her; making her an incidental Muslim.
I get from the podcast that Indian Muslims, who are a multiplicity, are increasingly becoming a minority who have to prove their “Indianess.”
But listen to the podcast and make your own views. I did take LV & MJ to task for their “Hindu privilege”; a bit like white privilege, it’s so invisible in India that once can take it for granted.
I also called LV a Left-Liberal Hindu, her Hinduism isn’t necessarily important to her, but becomes an issue when she feels it’s being hijacked by Rightist forces.
So it was an interesting back and forth and as always I try to keep my views fluid so that the podcast can reflect the right balance of views. I did point out that Modi, in terms of his personal austerity and immense work ethic, is an enviable leader. He has no progeny to leave office to and no dynastic politics at work; he is all about the country. Incidentally Imran may be the same as I can’t see any of his three children succeeding him in terms of PTI.
I also feel that if India is heading towards the same type of governance as Pakistan (God forbid) then the idea that Hinduism is somehow manifestly superior to Islam is a bit weak. I do sense Indians want to keep the tagline of secular, liberal democracy but with overtly Hindu characteristics, which is fine albeit majoritarian.
MJ, as per usual, is off to good and great things; giving a speech today on Brexit and Dharma with Hindo Sengupta.
We would definitely appreciate morepositive reviews. Many of you listen to us, but don’t leave any reviews!
I’m in High Tory mode these days but I find it absurd to ask for the recovery of Mughal artifacts when both India & Pakistan disrespect that historical period.
When Pakistanis can speak decent Dari and Babri Masjid is rebuilt then we can discuss the colonial encounter and its aftermath. Until then there are much better things to complain about.
