Thoughts on the Aziz Ansari issue?
I have many but I’ve kept them to myself..
I’ll throw a rather controversial question out there; “has Aziz reinforced certain stereotypes about Brown & maybe Muslim men in the dating market?”
I’m just asking the questions (don’t shoot the messenger) and exploring the issue from a “Brown” “Pundit” angle.
After following the debate and reading articles on both sides, I think that both parties made mistakes. Aziz should have stopped when he realized that “Grace” was uncomfortable. Your date locking herself in the bathroom should be a pretty good sign that she’s not that into it. “Grace” shouldn’t have gone to his apartment if she wasn’t OK with intimacy. If she changed her mind later, she should have gotten out of there and taken a taxi home. Why all the “chilling” on the couch and watching “Seinfeld” when the evening had already gone south for her? The main thing that I don’t understand is the need for the public shaming. If she feels that she was assaulted, she has the option of pursuing criminal charges. Telling a journalist graphic details of Aziz’s sexual behavior seems unwarranted to me.
The larger point is that norms around consent etc are changing very fast and a lot of well-meaning people don’t really understand the new feminist reality. But I do think there is a problem with a movement in which bad dates and bad sex is conflated with rape.
I wrote a reply but I deleted it; I don’t know why I’m reserving my thoughts on this issue..
I am a big fan of the Me Too movement. I think a lot of male misogynists are being put in their place all over the world. Including those guilty of male on male misogyny (which Tarek partly blamed on Islamist invaders from the west 😉 ).
If someone believes that casual physical relations outside committed relationships has gone too far; Me Too is the best possible thing that could have happened. Now men will refuse physical relations outside of committed relationships unless they deeply trust the female in question. Any male stupid enough to have physical relations with a female he doesn’t deeply trust outside of a committed relationship deserves everything coming to him. Including being blackmailed or subject to mood swings from their female partner. Yay! Out of wedlock pregnancies will drop. Yay! Abortions will drop. Yay! Out of wedlock births will drop. Yay! Marriage will become cool again. Yay! What is not to like?
What is male on male misogyny (Misogyny is usually defined as hatred of women)? Do you mean homophobia?
“Any male stupid enough to have physical relations with a female he doesn’t deeply trust outside of a committed relationship deserves everything coming to him. “– Your problem here is with the entire dating culture as it has developed in the early 21st century. The assumption is that two consenting adults (of whatever gender) are free to decide when they want to have sex. It could be on the first date, or the fifth date or whatever. It seems pretty unfair for a man to invite someone on a date, go back to his place to get intimate, and then be accused of assault the next day. The important thing is that both parties clearly communicate and consent to sex. Who are we to shame a woman who chooses to sleep with a man on the first date? That’s not very feminist.
There is something to be said for traditional societies like India and Pakistan, in which “dating” was not traditionally allowed and courtship was highly supervised. A Pakistani young woman would never go to an unmarried man’s apartment alone. If she did and something bad happened to her, she would certainly not go to a journalist who would validate her and shame the man. The first question most people would ask her would be “Why did you go to his place? What did you think was going to happen”? Traditional societies may seem misogynistic to many feminists, but they also offer women some protections against such incidents. However, Aziz and “Grace” had to negotiate US dating culture. And I think they both did a bad job.
Male misogyny is male harassment, which is a major problem.
Dating and physical relations are different things. What is wrong with dating?
Woman are divine. Hindus know that God is a woman. Woman are free to do whatever they want. They are the boss. Woman have seven divine qualities versus the three men have. Men and woman can never be equal . . . . Woman are far superior. Woman should never be shamed by men, ever. Men are the servants of woman and need to know their place. Long live the Matriarchy! Long live Mataji!
A-rr-ay Bhai, yeh bahoot accha baad hey. In econometric studies, out of wedlock births are strongly correlated with committing crimes, incarceration, income, wealth, divorce rates, and the out of wedlock birth rates of their own children.
The social problems and inequality caused by the 76% illegitimate birth rate among African Americans versus 15% illegitimate birth rate of Asian Americans are tearing America apart. Asian Americans are outperforming caucasion Americans (27% illegitimate birth rate) by every socio-economic metric at a rapidly accelerating rate. By contrast African Americans are underperforming caucasion Americans (27% illegitimate birth rate) by every socio-economic metric at a rapidly accelerating rate.
Me Too, which I strongly support and endorse, will in my opinion significantly lower the global illegitimate birth rate, lower global poverty, lower global crime, lower global incarceration; and increase global living standards.
My hope is that “Me Too” comes to dominate shariah courts around the world. We know the 2 male or 4 female witness rule to prove adultery. Just make a new ruling. Whoever a woman or girl accuses will automatically be convicted and punished for rape or harassment. Period. All other Koranic and Hadith rules on physical relations outside matrimony will be suspended because we are not in a perfect Islamic state.
Day-kko, sub teek ho-jaye-gi.
दकको, सुब ठीक होजायी गई
Adultery will go down. Premarital pregnancies will go down. Rape will go down. Female sexual harassment will go down. Female freedom and empowerment will improve. Female safety will improve. The muslim world will improve massively.
इलसिए में “मी तू” चाहिए
Esliye, me “Me Too” Chahiye.
Yay. Just found out that blogger is good with Deva Nagri! Hoorey!
“Dating and physical relations are different things. What is wrong with dating?”: In the modern West, dating is very closely tied to sexual (what you are calling physical) relations. The assumption is that if not on the first date, after a few dates you will sleep together. If a woman doesn’t sleep with a guy after a few dates, most young guys are not going to want to see her again. The exception may be those who are seriously looking for marriage.
The issue with “illegitimate” (not a politically correct word btw) births does not arise with the use of modern contraception. Most sexually active young women in the West are on the pill. Even is she is not, condoms should always be used.
You suggest that whoever a woman accuses should automatically be punished for rape. This goes against the modern legal principle of innocent until proven guilty.
I would prefer you stay out of discussing what should happen in Sharia because you are neither a Muslim nor an Islamic scholar and as such not really qualified to have this discussion. It is not really relevant either as we are discussing a case that took place in New York City between two people, neither of whom is a practicing Muslim. Anyway, in Islam, premarital or extramarital sex is a crime. These two people have committed “zina” or fornication. In the Western world, they went on a date and whatever happened afterwards is between them. The only thing that becomes a crime is sexual assault. “Grace” has not chosen to make it into a criminal issue.
“In the modern West, dating is very closely tied to sexual (what you are calling physical) relations. The assumption is that if not on the first date, after a few dates you will sleep together. If a woman doesn’t sleep with a guy after a few dates, most young guys are not going to want to see her again. The exception may be those who are seriously looking for marriage.”
I don’t understand this mentality. Who says this stuff? Hollywood? Hollywood isn’t real life. In real life, people should do what makes them happy. More than 99% of the value of dating doesn’t come from intercourse. It comes from the spiritual bonding of two souls, two intuitions, two minds, two energies. When two become one . . . transcendence happens.
No male has “ANY” right to expect physical relations on any date. Neither does a male need it. The idea that a male needs this is westernized post modernist psychological gibber jabber. Men can play breath, stretch, exercise, concentrate, meditate and transcend the ordinary mind. Humans can access and use the unconscious parts of their brain and experience feelings beyond gross thought. Humans can at will experience goose bumps and nonsexual organisms greater then what accompanies most intercourse. Humans can experience God.
Sisters, any male who expects or demands physical relations is not worth having. You don’t need them. The idea that dating is necessarily physical is stupid traditional Abrahamic (mostly muslim) and to a lesser degree non muslim eastern male misogynistic stereotype. Girls and boys are much more mature and have far more self control than this.
Why is “illegitimate” politically incorrect? What is wrong with using this phrase?
“You suggest that whoever a woman accuses should automatically be punished for rape. This goes against the modern legal principle of innocent until proven guilty.” But they are 100% guilty . . . of stupidity at the very least . . . which is almost as bad. If they are so stupid, maybe our species is better served without their genes in the next generation. No male is entitled to progeny.
“I would prefer you stay out of discussing what should happen in Sharia because you are neither a Muslim nor an Islamic scholar and as such not really qualified to have this discussion.”
Every other religion (and for that matter many minority muslims, liberal muslims, reform muslims, secular/atheist muslims) welcomes curiosity about their faith, scripture and jurisprudence tradition.
Why doesn’t every muslim and every human being have the right to read, interpret, and share their thoughts about every part of the holy Koran, Bukhari Sahih, Muslim Sahih, other 4 Hadiths, Sira; and every other muslim scripture? The Koran, Hadiths and Sira belong equally to all muslims and all nonmuslims. All muslims and all nonmuslims have complete freedom of speech to discuss every part of the Koran, Hadiths and Sira any way they want. No exceptions. Period. Freedom of speech is a human right.
Please watch the Tarek Fatah interview in full and share your thoughts. [I love me some Tarek Fatah!]
http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/01/17/why-do-nonmulims-mistreat-muslims-so-much/
Tarek Fatah proudly says that he and his colleagues compiled a new Koran with far better organization, sequentiallity and context. [I would love to get a copy of it!] But he can’t publish it. What a travesty 🙁 Tarek Fatah then sadly says that no one will respect any new Koran written by a South Asian because of rampant racism and bigotry against darkie South Asians. Sadly this is not the first time I have heard about this Sunni Arab bigotry. I have heard many twelvers (Indian, Pakistani, Afghan, Iranian, Iraqi), sixer Ishmaeli, Sufi, liberal/reform muslim, secular/atheist muslim say the same thing; in many cases just as sadly. Even famous leading twelver, Sufi and Ishaeli scholars/Imams are treated with incredible disrespect by condescending Saudi/Egyptian Sunni clerics; as if they are uneducated. Even Sistani is treated this way, which he responds to with class and restraint. All he asks for is one thing . . . that twelver jurisprudence and al-Kutub al-Arbaʿah be treated as the fifth school of Sunni Jurisprudence.
I have asked many theological questions from twelver and Sufi scholars and practitioners; and my questions to them have always been warmly welcomed. We live in an age of global transparency and openness. Those who do not adjust will die.
Every female muslim has universal human rights. There are no exceptions. Every human being, muslim or nonmuslim, should help female muslims practice their human rights. These universal human rights outway any backward irrational interpretations of the holy Koran, Bukhari Sahih, Muslim Sahih or Sira. Note that the holy Koran is not being criticized, only backward irrational interpretations of the holy Koran.
If female muslims are empowered, all muslims will become far more successful and happy. And if muslims become far more successful and happy, then all humans will become successful and happy. We all share a symbiotic relationship with shared values and shared interests. This is why the human rights of all muslim woman benefits all humans and is the business of all humans.
AnAn,
I grew up in the US. Dating begins in middle school. By high school certainly, there is the expectation that boyfriends and girlfriends are going to be sleeping together. No guy is going to make a long term girlfriend who isn’t going to sleep with him. That is the whole point of dating. Maybe you just have not experienced this aspect of US culture. It’s not a Muslim idea (what is your obsession with Muslims?) because the vast majority of the US population is not Muslim. In Islam, dating is not allowed. Muslim kids are told by their parents not to date. Even if they date, Muslim kids are definitely told that having sex is haraam.
“Illegitimate” is politically incorrect because it suggests that the person who is born from an unplanned pregnancy is somehow illegitimate. The feminist term is “unwanted pregnancy”.
The Holy Quran is the word of God. You are welcome to be curious about it, but do not presume that you understand it. Sharia is a very complicated subject and people spend years to become specialists in Islamic Law. You are not an Islamic scholar. Neither is Tarek Fatah, so I am not interested in how he has decided to revise the unchanging and holy word of Allah (who gives him the right to think he knows better than Allah?). No human being should presume to write the Quran, since it is a divinely revealed scripture that was never written by a human being. I am not an Islamic scholar either, nor am I interested in becoming one. So forgive me if I decline to further discuss Islam with you. But I would never be so presumptuous as to tell you how to practice Hinduism. So please don’t tell us how to do Islam. Sharia is the law of God. And no unqualified person can tell us to adjust the law of God. That is not to say that liberal Islamic scholars cannot interpret Sharia in a way that makes sense for the modern world. But they are Islamic scholars. They have the training and the education to do that.
Perhaps you forgot to prefix the crucial “I believe”. Last time I checked, to most people on this planet Quran is a book in medieval Arabic composed by a tribal Arabs who belonged to a particular faith. Just like the Vedic corpus is a set of books by tribal Indians or Tanakh by tribal Jews .. only composed much earlier.
Who knows what’s true but c’est la vie…
The “I believe” was implied. This discussion was in the context of Tarek Fatah thinking he can revise the Quran. To (almost) all Muslims, this would be considered preposterous.
Of course the same applies to all other scriptures. However, Christians (in my understanding) do not think that every word of the Bible directly came from God.
“I’ll throw a rather controversial question out there; “has Aziz reinforced certain stereotypes about Brown & maybe Muslim men in the dating market?””
This is an extremely sensitive question. And let me first of all say that most Deshi men from cultured educated spiritual families treat woman and girls very respectfully and lovingly. I am not speaking about them.
This said, I have seen and heard of many, many, many incidents of Deshi men womanizing and misbehaving in the tackiest and worst possible way. Yes it is a minority of all Deshi men. True. But seeing it makes me want to vomit, and then vomit again, and want to vomit yet again. This is a “HUGE” problem in the South Asian community. I have no idea why it is so bad. Maybe the leftover remnant of a thousand years of muslim and Islamist colonization. Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims men are all equally bad. It would be better to have a thousand more years of English rule than to have this. [Not that English rule seemed to helped much the first time, given we still have this problem.]
1) Aziz Ansari is not a practicing Muslim. He has said on record that he is an atheist. If he were a practicing Muslim, he would never have had an unmarried girl who is a “na-mehram” (i.e not related to him and thus eligible for marriage) over to his apartment alone. This behavior would just not arise among Orthodox Muslims. A Practicing Muslim woman would practice purdah in front of all men who are “na-mehram”. Even the most liberal Pakistani Muslim girl knows better not to go to a man’s place by herself.
2) Yes, sexual harassment is a major problem in South Asia. It has nothing to do with Islam. Many feminists have noted how Bollywood normalizes sexual harassment. The hero pursues the heroine. She first says no. He follows her home, grabs her wrist, sings her a song and eventually she says yes. We have all seen lots of movies like this. You pursue a girl hard enough, she eventually becomes yours. Quite the opposite of the modern Western understanding that “no means no” the first time. Add to this the objectification of women in Bollywood and songs like “Sheila ki jawani” and the one that compared a woman to piece of chicken (I have no idea what the song is actually called). These are not “bharati sanskars” and it is certainly not Islam.
3) English rule wouldn’t have solved this problem. Western men are just as bad as Desi men. Sexual harassment simply takes different forms in the West.
Agree completely on points 1 and 2.
“English rule wouldn’t have solved this problem.” Agree completely.
“Western men are just as bad as Desi men. Sexual harassment simply takes different forms in the West.” Don’t completely agree. However western men terribly misbehave in ways unrelated to sexual harassment.
The #MeToo movement is about Western men. Harvey Weinstein is not desi. He is Jewish (though clearly not a religious Jew, who like religious Muslims are not into sexual contact with anyone who is not their wife). Kevin Spacey is not desi. Aziz Ansari is nominally Indian-American but he was brought up in a Western environment. He wouldn’t be doing this kind of thing back in India (at least that is my guess). Harassment in the subcontinent is more about whistling at women on the street, rubbing against them in buses, etc. All of which is very gross but quite different from what happens in the West.
This discussion really needs a female perspective. BP in general needs more female perspectives.
Me Too is global with a huge impact in South Asia. Thank God. It is about time. Many leading Indian misogynist creeps have fallen. 🙂
Bollywood had more misogyny than Hollywood recently. But Me Too has fixed that. Bollywood is much better now. Suspect that people like Ansari would have been more likely to misbehave in India than America a year ago.
“BP in general needs more female perspectives.” Woman are superior to men! Agreed. Now we can move on. 😉
“You are not an Islamic scholar. Neither is Tarek Fatah, so I am not interested in how he has decided to revise the unchanging and holy word of Allah (who gives him the right to think he knows better than Allah?).”
Just watch the video in full and make up your own mind afterwards. You might not agree with anything; but you won’t be able to stop laughing. I couldn’t. This is what
“You are not an Islamic scholar. Neither is Tarek Fatah, so I am not interested in how he has decided to revise the unchanging and holy word of Allah (who gives him the right to think he knows better than Allah?).”
Just watch the video in full and make up your own mind afterwards. You might not agree with anything; but you won’t be able to stop laughing. I couldn’t. This is what makes Bharat and South Asians great.
he didn’t rape anyone so he falsified a stereotype of brown guys.
Tbh I was surprised at how little his ethnicity was mentioned outside of South Asian circles. I saw more think pieces about him being a hypocritical male feminist. Also discussing the irony that someone who writes about modern romance approaches sex like a teenage porn addict.