” There are a lot of thinking people who would argue, on policy, both that the government is wrong and the farmers’ position might not be tenable in its entirety. Neither the government’s nor the farmers’ position addresses the long-term challenges of the environment. But equally, the government’s position does not address the real long-term issues of precarity in the agriculture sector.
You claim you were ready to compromise, put the Bills in abeyance. But that will not be enough for two reasons. You denied standing to those who disagreed; they were the ground on which allegiances were tested, not policy debated. It is abundantly clear the changes Indian agriculture requires cannot be done within the framework of these Bills. The only way to move forward is to repeal the bills and start from first principles. You will get new allies and a better outcome.”
India’s foremost liberal commentator on farm laws. ?
thewarlock
3 years ago
BJP needs a vajpayee type of smooth talker more than ever
Ronen
3 years ago
Does someone have a clubhouse invite? Lots of interesting discussions on economics, history and genetics that I’d like to listen in to but currently missing out on. Let me know! ?
Dude, everybody in the internet era lives in a glass house (in more ways than one). All that matters is (1) how much attention your house attracts and (2) how many people you can muster to throw stones at another’s.
phyecon1
3 years ago
mistake of vajpayee, smooth talk over hard power, mistake of modi,only hard power and no place for diplomacy.
That is after they protested, diplomacy works best before. Find out who will be the most resistant to change and bring them over first.
Jezza
3 years ago
You folks know about this guy, Balaji Viswanathan? He primarily posts on Quora, and is quite brilliant and insightful. He’s the CEO of his own robotics company and is well versed in literally everything. Check him out at: https://www.quora.com/profile/பாலாஜி-விஸ்வநாதன்-Balaji-Viswanathan
“What do Rihanna, Greta Thunberg and Vice President Kamala Harris’s niece, Meena Harris, have in common? They’re all rallying support for India’s farmer protests, which are morphing from an arcane domestic dispute into an emotive international cause. And they’re all mostly wrong in their thinking. …
“There’s nothing wrong with celebrities taking an interest in events half a world away. But when it comes to the farmer protests, celebrity Twitter activism is based on a reductive caricature of complex issues as a faceoff between colorfully turbaned sons of the soil and a thuggish government backed by evil corporations.
“If you dig into the details, the moral questions become less clear. Protesting farmers may have understandable fears about their futures, but they come mostly from a relatively privileged minority who benefit from an unsustainable procurement system set up more than 50 years ago. …”
Prats
3 years ago
Came across this trailer for an Indo-African rom com (Indian guy, Nigerian girl).
TBH I have never seen any Indian person dating a black person in real life, though I am sure there would be some.
For Netflix to be chasing this kind of demographic, they must really have exhausted all other combinations.
I do hope Indians start taking more interest in Africa.
I’m sure you know this, but Kamala Harris’ parents are Black & Indian.
I think Black & Indian marriages are somewhat more common in the Caribbean, although I’ve also heard that there are sometimes tensions between Indians and Blacks, particularly in Guyana.
But yea, beyond that, it’s not all that common, esp given some Indians’ prejudices toward Black people (not sure if Black people have prejudices against Indians, but wouldn’t be surprised… see Uganda, Guyana).
A marriage probably in the 1900’s, a Barbadian (Educated in England) was a judge in Ceylon married to Ceylon Burgher/Eurasian. One of the daughters Estelle Roberts was my mothers (Peace BeeBee) classmate. https://photos.app.goo.gl/wWozVCoEP8qS24zf7
Classmate who was radio officer married a Somali and they both lived in Sri Lanka
Classmates son (they live in US) married to an african american
I have dated a few African Americans while living in the US
Chili isn’t Trinidadian (I believe her father is from Bangladesh and her mother is American Black), but yes, she is fairly representative of the look.
You forget arguably the most famous example: Nicki Minaj. Although more specifically, her father is a Dougla, her mother is Afro-Trinidadian.
I myself am of Dougla descent, though more Indian than African. One of my great-grandmothers was a true Trinidadian Dougla.
Thanks Indo-Carib for the link.
Some of the photos rhyme with the Sri Lankan look.
When in the US, I almost never mistook Indians for Sri Lankans.
Often mistook Trinidadians etc for Sri Lankans
This is a foodie video of Lankan restaurants in Staten Island, NY
The narrator, Skiz Fernando is Sri Lankan too. Skiz says he is pure Sinhalese, all I can say is hmm
For those who want to see India’s economic differential vis-a-vis Pakistan in terms of their sub-regions. You probably had some inkling about the differential but it is bigger than you think. Quite big! There is a vast gulf – the below video shows a time lapse from 1970 to 2020 on how the regions fared –
To put in perspective, Kerala in 1970 was already bigger than the economy of Balochistan. Today Kerala’s GDP is bigger than all of Pakistan minus Punjab. By 2030, Kerala will outstrip Pakistan.
Today Tamilnadu’s GDP is bigger that of Pakistan with only one third of its population. Big brother Maharashtra is playing in another league.
The difference is stark – we are going to enter a period of flux before the end of this decade. No entity within the Westphalian framework can survive this level of power differential without coping mechanisms (trade bridge, peace treaties, vassal status etc).
thewarlock
3 years ago
I think China colonizing Pak will be good. They will run the country better than the radical islamists and their corrupt zamindar panderers would. Ideally, market minded leaders, who are anti military industrial complex controlling everything, rise up there. For now, China’s strong guiding hand, despite there for an unequal bargain, is still better than the likely status quo.
No. All China wants is to suck Pakistan dry of it’s resources , be it’s consumer for it’s industrial products,supplier of raw materials and where Chinese capital can be invested on terms set by China, and China can give ‘loans’ to pakistan at exorbitant rates. In return China will support Pakistan in it’s attempt to grab Indian territory, and pakistan will keep quiet about China’s minorities like Uyghurs
In other words colonise Pakistan economically.
VijayVan
I assume you have heard of the Colombo Harbor East Container Terminal spat with India. SL has decided not to lease to India/Japan consortium.
India has ended the Swap agreement with SL.
Also a clause to get IMF backing to extend the Swap.
That seemed a odd clause because India and IMF are not really buddy buddies.
Then realized India is part of the Quad.
So maybe India game plan maybe to get IMF to force ECT to India.
Then the Quad directly or indirectly has a foothold in SL
Sbarrkum
India is cautious about Quad, rightly so. India has not been part of military alliances after 1947 so it is cautious. Even 5 year from now, can’t be sure about India’s entanglement in Quad. Indian foreign office is always suspicious about US intentions
The Chinese loans carry a significantly lower interest rates than the Paris Club and other loans from multilateral parties that still form the majority of Pakistan’s external debt. Not only that, the Chinese usually rollover these loans and are very flexible, the same cannot be said of other Western creditors. Chinese economic influence in Pakistan has had a net positive affect, they have collaborated in building and modernizing road, rail, port and power infrastructure in Pakistan that has already started yielding positive dividends will continue doing so in the near future. The power crisis of the 2010’s that decimated the textile industry is mostly a thing of the past. I don’t see any security concerns either, Pakistani establishment is good at playing both sides and any future Chinese threat can be easily countered by shifting the balance back towards the West.
I fail to see any downsides for Pakistan in its close cooperation with China both on the economic and military front.
I can attest to that. The state of the roads and infra in Colombo that was Chinese made was much better than anything in Indian cities. The highways in SL that I traveled on (Colombo- Jaffna, Jaffna – Trinco) were smooth and spotless. And Jaffna itself was genteel and peaceful, with great roads and construction activity (the odd bombed out building that I expected was very rare but could still be seen). Chinese infra construction is nothing but a boon to these nations, and can only lead to positives.
The Chinese loans carry a significantly lower interest rates than the Paris Club….
Chinese debt agreements come with several parts – a loan agreement and a concessional agreement. If you are referring to the “sticker price”, you are correct. But if you look at the concessions – they have a discounted value that totally alters the overall picture.
Many of the concessionary side-agreements are opaque and are not released to the debtor country’s public for consumption. For most African countries and Asian low income countries like Pakistan, Srilanka – the Chinese have not offered portfolio debt (sovereign bonds) but direct loans. Which means that the repayment is backed by a collateral (minerals, mining rights or land FTA). Look at Page 38 in the below document.
If it is not clear yet, the Chinese are “exporting capital”, not providing sovereign loans. There is a world of difference between the two. It is not a free lunch.
I think you are naive to think that there is no ‘concessional value’ provided to Western creditors on top of the exorbitant interest rates they also happen to charge that stifles growth and condemns those countries to prolonged periods of stagnation and poverty. Their system is designed to make these loans stay on the country’s balance sheet while the actual funds are siphoned off by the corrupt elite back to Western banks and institutions, all the while collecting interest and receiving political concessions. Just take a look at where the elite in all developing countries stash their money.
China actually builds infrastructure on the ground, that promotes growth. I don’t see what is wrong in exporting their surplus capital. Perhaps the bidding process is not opaque, but things get made, as opposed to the previous creditors where most funds were lost to corruption. This debt trap diplomacy allegations have been circling for years now, mostly by American think tanks with ties to the American security establishment that seek to discredit the Chinese. The results however speak a different story.
In any case, Pakistan is clearly benefiting from the Chinese, which is why the full tilt towards them in the last few years and the results on the ground are visible to us.
In case of sovereign debt, if the debtor cannot pay up – the lender takes a haircut. For the debtor – their credit ratings take a dive. The next loan will have higher interest rates. So this system works with transparently set rates and insolvency declarations.
For the credit lines that China is offering – it is always against a concession. In case the debtor cannot pay, the lender will seize assets earmarked for such eventualities. So you are only mortgaging your family jewels for some cash that you are anyway going to pay interest on.
In the case of sovereign debt, the lender is also interested in the investment model because he is going to take a haircut in case of failure. So they insist on actions (austerity programs) that will mitigate risk for them.
But China is a pawnbroker – they don’t care where you are going to take their money and put it in. They even take concessions in bidding for inflated turnkey contracts to build that asset. So they make money thrice – in interest payments, in executive contracts to build it and also if the asset model fails. Finest piece of shylocking I have ever seen!!
@Ugra
You should look up what happened to Argentina when they refused to pay and defaulted on their sovereign bonds. They aren’t still out of it and the country, which was one of the richest and most industrialized is now perpetually bankrupted with no relief in sight. Creditors don’t take a haircut, they get their pound of flesh and all the ‘concessions’ and ‘assets’ along with the higher interest rates.
As I said, the difference is just cosmetics. If you think the global monetary system is not rigged to favor a few players, then it is not me who is being willfully ignorant.
The Chinese lending model is working for many countries that know the alternative is much much worse.
Haha….you chose the exact example I wanted to show. Argentina defaulted to be confronted with years of currency and fiscal crisis’s. But they did not lose any sovereignty. The debt was restructured to fit a newer schedule – Argentines actually met the targets by late 2006. Debt-trap diplomacy is a reality – ask the Tajiks. What you say may be a matter of perspective. The perennial debtor is always shilled by shiny offerings.
I am not sure how you define ”met targets”. Repaying the IMF does not mean anything, Argentina is currently seeking a $44billion bailout from the IMF, last year it had a run on its banks..
The fundamental issues were never resolved, Western creditors and vulture hedge funds did not take a haircut for their bad investments in Argentina, and even after 2006, Argentina’s external debt has ballooned, it’s deficits up, state assets privatized and cannibalized, and the country is facing another sovereign debt crisis. It’s a shining example of how to bleed one of the richest countries on the planet dry. Not sure how this is better than what China is doing (taking over the reigns of building productivity increasing infrastructure themselves)
Besides, at least for Pakistan, there is little to worry about Sovereignty. Sovereignty is guaranteed by the military, not gold.
Agree with Sbrakkum and Quereshi here. No amount of hand gesturing by Quad/West will help Sri Lanka or Pakistan unless they are willing to put their money where the mouth is. And China is the only country willing or was willing to invest when the chips were down.
Indias joining up with IMF (because of Quad) affiliation, makes sense if you read article below.
Also SL refused a US, Millennium Challenge Corp aid/grant of 400million. Even though the US kept pushing to give it/SL accept it.
===========================
Final question: these austerity and anti-labor policies which the IMF imposes on countries of the global South seem to be well known practices from before the IMF was created, from what you’ve discussed. Did the IMF invent anything new? In addition, in the 19th century, was predatory lending something common, or was direct invasion always the go-to method for subjugating a territory?
Prof Hudson
The 19th century was really the golden age of industrial capitalism. Countries wanted to invest to make a profit. They didn’t want to invest in dismantling an existing industry, because there wasn’t much industry to dismantle. They wanted to make profit by creating industry. There was a lot of investment in infrastructure, and it almost always lost money. For instance, there was recently a criticism of China saying, “Doesn’t China know that the Panama Canal went bankrupt again and again, and that all the investments in canals and the railroads all went broke again and again?” Of course China knows that. The idea is that you make investment not to make a profit on basic large infrastructure. The 19th century was basically inter-state lending, inter-governmental lending, public sector lending. That’s where the money was made. The late 20th century was one of financialization, dismantling the industry that was already in place, not lending to create industry to make a profit. It’s asset-stripping, not profit-seeking.
That’s what I meant by vassal state. Chinese mercantilist attitudes are quite exploitative – they already show that in every continent. They are going to sink their incisors deep into Pakistan’s sinews. On the other hand, they might throw them under the bus also.
I pointed out Kerala as a illustration to show that even Indian Communism has a leg up over Islamicate/Sharia systems in perceiving societal problems and figuring out sustainable solutions. Kerala went all out in land reform and universal education during the EMS years. They dismantled rent seeking structures and really figured out ways to make people understand their basic entitlements. I have myself dissed some of Kerala’s mechanisms in the past but I am going to put a line in my diary from now on.
Many YT channels bordering on promoting Nordic supremacy use the IE to promote their agenda. Indians having been opposing AIT give away an opportunity to make broader connection to the IE traditions and Vedic ones.
The fact that the “Sintashta were swarthy” need to promoted heavily. The Nordic supremacy YT channels need to be countered.
I did say this in a different way. Yamnaya R1b (today’s ‘westerners’) were not white. They became white when they came in contact with Vincha (I1/I2) people in Europe. So as the original Greeks, who were neither white nor spoke ‘Indo-European’ language.
In the thread: ”The great drama…”, Phy says – ‘From a historic perspective, it is whites who did terrible things to others. And many who recall history fall for the fact of being white as in itself a category of somehow being bad reinforced by actual racists in present world.’
Accordingly, considering the above, the previous quotation is equivalent to what I said before – ‘R1b (who originally were not whites!) started almost all wars in last 5000 years and conducted many genocides since they first came from Russian steppes to Europe’.
One historian writing about Vincha, said anecdotally (I will write about this more extensively) that – “In Vincha lived the last good people”, alluding that that they did not experienced any war for 2000 years before Yamnaya and had achieved the highest levels of technology, arts, architecture and social organisation. After that started a chain of wars and conquerings which did not stop until today.
Also, so as we said that the term ‘Indo-European’ is meaningless, we can say the same for the term ‘Caucasian’, which is used only in US and adopted from the Bible.
NM
3 years ago
LOL, the (video on IE) comments sections shows that seemed to have completely ignored the “swarthy” skin color part and selectively focusing on ~ 25% blue eye color.
PS. Someone asked me about this old Serbian singer (he is still alive). For music lovers, there is another song from him performed alive 40 years after its recording (in 2014). The song’s name is ‘Odysseya’ (which means an endless life quest and journey). Of course, the seasoned pundits already know that Odyssey himself was a Serbian ancient traveler who was for 20 years returning from the battle for Troy.
The singer at that time had a world tour with other famous world singers – Mireille Mathieu, Dusty Springfield, Tom Jones, Engelbart Humperdinck. In addition, pundits can notice for 2 seconds an Indian violinist playing in orchestra.
The translation of the song – “Odysseya”
Way to fame and fortune, way to the throne
It was always the same from the beginning
The road to hell and abyss, the road to debacle
It was always the same from the beginning
No one knows what will happen, what to expect
Yesterdays leaves us a trail in the hair
The past and the future, the same story
Everything that shines ain’t always gonna be gold
Odyssey, odyssey, the path of thorns or the path of orchids
Odyssey, odyssey, life is just a new odyssey
… and for your perusal”
Rig Veda Mandala 2, Hymn 12
“Even the Heaven and Earth bow down before him, before his very breath the mountains tremble.
Known as the Soma-drinker, armed with thunder, who wields the bolt, He, O ye men, is Indra.”
Amusing thread all around. The commentors don’t realize that they are just as hateful and delusional as the people they are criticizing.
principia
3 years ago
If India is serious about power projection then it needs to stop doing business deals through Western-controlled institutions like the IMF. Ideally, set up your own banking infrastructure like China did with AIIB. India now has foreign exchange reserves around 600 billion dollars, and still rapidly rising. Why not start with a capital base of around 100 billion USD and then start lending it out to countries in exchange for geopolitical favours?
As for Pakistan, it is untrue that China’s loans are predatory. Their interest rates are typically quite low. However, it is very telling that China is now dragging its feet to give out new loans to Pakistan.
The Chinese have gotten smarter and understood the game that Pakistanis play. They are trying to play both sides off each other and just gobble up more loans, which is inevitably going to the local oligarchs and feudal landlords. So Beijing is now starting to sit this one out. World Bank is going to demand tougher conditions. IMF is already demanding that Pakistan let its exchange rate be free.
It’s a country that is basically a black hole that just sucks resources. I always felt it was way overestimated in international affairs and Beijing is now coming to that conclusion, too. Use it as a hedge against India, yes, but free-for-all subsidies are coming to an end.
Indians should stop Pakistani obsession and instead compare ourselves to China – a worthy rival. Even the richest of India’s small states is barely at the same level as China’s poorest. Let’s fix that.
I really wish there was a vocal section of India’s left that pushed for universal education and large scale labour intensive growth. Instead we have petty union netas and idiotic culture warriors.
The right is weirdly obsessed with playing some intractable 4D chess games while the demographic dividend withers away.
Let’s fact it, Hindus don’t have a unified cultural&national consciousness yet. We’re all insular AF in our Castes&States. Indians just don’t have a unified cultural&historical narrative to rally behind besides “Fuck Pakistan”, and even that rhetoric has its limits.Most South&NE Indians don’t give a damn about Pakistan or the “Muslim Problem”.
“I really wish there was a vocal section of India’s left that pushed for universal education and large scale labour intensive growth”
Indian Right already does that with its Socialist policies, its just that the quality of Govt Healthcare&Education in India remains dogshit due to a lack of funding,manpower&redtape. As far as labour intensive growth is concerned, the Infra&political will just isn’t there. If there was ever a chance to take advantage of demographic dividend, we’re already missed it. Calling it a “demographic disaster” is more apt. India should start investing in block chains and A.I, IT Sector is the only goddamn silver lining we got.
Laughably Wrong, eh? Tell me, who in Tamil Nadu and Kerala worries about “The Muslim Problem”? I must’ve missed them.
thewarlock
3 years ago
” The Justin Trudeau government in Canada has finally woken up to death threats to Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Indian consul general at Vancouver made by pro-Khalistan separatists on January 26 and provided armed guard security to top Indian diplomats in Ottawa and Vancouver on Saturday.
In a diplomatic note to Canadian foreign ministry, the Indian high commission on February 2 informed that one Inderjit Singh Bains made death threats against Prime Minister Modi on January 26 outside the Vancouver consul general office and posted on the Facebook account of fellow separatist Narinder Singh Khalsa.
The letter from Indian high commission to Canadian foreign ministry makes it amply clear that death threats to the Indian Prime Minister constitutes an act of terrorism and requested that the matter should be thoroughly investigated and the action should be taken against the individuals to mitigate any security risk posed.”
good video on the Canada situation and their hypocrisy of supporting such measures when complaining to the WTO but then turning around and now supporting the middle man riot and caste agitation
Just LMFAO. Pak diaspora is about 10x better than Indian one at PR games.
Raja Wang
3 years ago
I speculate that in the long run, India and the US will most likely experience severe ideological conflicts. The American elites are the descendants of Macauley, however they want to convert India and its elites towards American rather than British values. Look at Afghanistan to see exactly how successful that’s been.
The most important aspect of the last 3 decades in India are arguably the rise of Hindu nationalism and increasing displacement of Nehruvian values in both theory and practice as economic liberalisation and the growing wealth of India has led to confidence in indigenous Indian values. This caused an increasing rejection of liberal Western values and the universalism that underpins those values.
The core doctrine of Hindu nationalism as espoused by Savarkar is modernisation without Westernisation,. The failures of the West in the past two decades have made it a fair less appealing model.
The only people who hate American lecturing and self righteousness on human rights more than than Chinese elites are Indian elites. I have no doubt, future govs and probably the current Biden administration will use the tools of the American state to push for liberal western values in Bharat.
Unfortunately for them, India’s political and ideological elite are increasingly moving towards various forms of Hindu nationalism in a clear rejection of Ambedkar and Nehru.
Modi will not be replaced by a Brown Trudeau or Macron type. The current conflicts the Indian government has with Twitter offer a small taste of what to come in the coming decades as Indian elites aim to reverse 1757 and push for a neo Dharmic state as a replacement to and alternative to the liberal western model.
Ram mandir may be viewed in future history textbooks as the moment India made a definitive break with liberal western values to pursue its own path to modernity and wealth.
Certainly, long term readers of razib have seen him grow more and more disillusioned with western liberalism particularly in the US as it devolves into some sort of oligarchic neo tribal deconstructionist nightmare.
Perhaps India’s elites will pay some lip service to liberal values for the next decade or two, but I speculate we will eventually see Indian leaders who fully reject John Locke in favour of Sanatana Dharma.
We’re entering a century where non western conceptualisations of modernity are increasingly becoming less abstract and more concrete.
> the rise of Hindu nationalism and increasing displacement of Nehruvian values in both theory and practice as economic liberalisation and the growing wealth of India has led to confidence in indigenous Indian values
I am not convinced. If the BJP loses power (strong chances, what with all the protests that are going on), everything will go back to square one. The elites will come back with a vengeance.
Ugra
3 years ago
For all desis running on the greencard-hamster-wheel, pay attention to oncoming traffic.
35% of all US dollars in existence have been printed in (the last) 10 months.
Now this is the kind of alarmist headline hunting tweet, every social butterfly wants to make on her feed. But the underlying sentiments and facts can be vouched for. Go to the St. Louis Fed website and check their time series for M1 supply. The tweet actually underestimates the explosive growth in 2020.
There cannot be a happy ending to this – macro-economically there will be severe consequences for world trade and comparative advantages. Some countries are going to sink and some are going to float. Just keep looking out for the sake of yourselves – the hamster wheel might make an unscheduled stop at the Weimar Republic.
This is on the heels of Polish (and soon Hungarian) anti-censorship laws for right-wingers. Are we going to see anything similar in India? Or is Modi too scared?
Roy
3 years ago
Joe Biden, the New Brezhnev
The emerging Biden doctrine suffers from the same problem, however, as the Brezhnev Doctrine did half a century ago. Each act of resistance – and there will be many in the years to come – undermines the hegemon’s credibility and self-confidence. After the Prague Spring was extinguished in 1968, and just beneath the drab surface of the reality of life under Communism, anti-Sovietism was rampant all over Eastern Europe. Back then, and for almost two decades thereafter, members of the Politburo were old, sluggish, devoid of ideas, and oblivious to the challenges their hegemony would soon face.
In contrast, America’s current neoconservative-neoliberal duopoly, back in power under the Biden-Harris regime, is neurotically hyperactive and still convinced that global hegemony can be reimposed as a morally mandated, open-ended, and self-justifying mission. This is madness. Leonid Brezhnev and his Politbureau comrades were dull and dumb, but by the late 1980’s they were rational enough to grasp that it was time to fold. Their contemporary heirs in Washington are insane, and therefore they will never go into that gentle night without a bang. But, there is hope. Quos deus vult perdere, dementat prius (Those whom God would destroy, He first deprives of reason).
“Senate approves bill mandating Arabic be taught in all Islamabad schools”
Less-Muslim region trying to catch up to Alpha-Muslim region.
lurker
3 years ago
It seems (based on cursory Twitter reading) that the military is consolidating ever more power in Pakistan with or without the connivance of Imran Khan’s “selected” government. Can Pakistanis (Syed?) confirm if this perception is true?
Perhaps Pakistan could do better under a military regime modeled on China’s communist state. Having single-minded focus on the economy with no distractions of elections, being able to make tough decisions and inflict near to medium term pain for long-term gains are all much more feasible under a (soft) dictatorship than under the tyranny of elections. China has proven this model, and so did other military regimes in Asia (Korea etc). We know that the military is corrupt, but so are civilian politicians, and CCP leaders, but would they be more effective? Sharad Pawar is known to be among the most corrupt politicians in India but even his detractors agreed that he was good for business. The same could apply in this case too. If somehow we could guarantee that Pakistan would become a middle income country in 25 years under a military regime would that be such a bad thing?
This would not work for India for many reasons including the mind boggling amount of diversity across caste, religion, region, language and race, and our unique path since independence (vs. Pakistan’s experience and tolerance /celebration of several military regimes). So really, just interested in hearing what folks of such a model for Pakistan.
” In some respects, they are doomed by the very nature of storytelling. A story is more farce than anthropology because of its two requirements—plot movement and entertainment. The moral arc is the easiest way to move a story, and the triumph of the underdog is a combination of movement and entertainment. The triumph of morality and of the underdog are not truths of the world, but two powerful plot devices that the world has forgotten are plot devices. In the face of such devices, the strong and the successful are no match for the lamenters. The strong always tell bad stories.
Also, the party has the talent of preaching to the converted, but not to the rest. Any priest can preach to converts, but it takes a prophet to convert. An organization of priests will naturally make it hard for prophets to rise.One of the reasons why strongmen have risen to power around the world is that intellectuals have become so despicable that even when they make sense, people doubt sense itself. This works the other way round, too. To a section of people in India and elsewhere, the BJP is such a cultural villain that they wish to believe the very opposite of what the party says is good for the nation.”
Prats
3 years ago
The pandemic seems done for for now in Delhi.
Took my mom to the hospital for an ultrasound today. So much crowd and little social distancing. The Covid wards are still fairly empty.
Thanks man for some good news. My parents have grown really restless with stays at home and all, and are planning a trip to Kashmir and Shimla. Even though I am vehemently against it. Don’t know if I can convince them to stay back till they get vaccinated.
girmit
3 years ago
Saurav/Prats, have you guys been advising your parents on which vaccine to take? We’ve got paralysis by analysis with mine, I’m wondering if either of the available two are better than waiting for moderna.
I am waiting for efficacy numbers for India to be released. Would have defaulted to AstraZeneca but the new results on the South African strain have put that decision on hold.
Also keep hearing from our acquaintances who are ‘in the know’ in the medical community that the Bharat Biotech vaccine is actually superior. I need to investigate this further.
The Novavax vaccine is also supposed to be available widely in the summer.
Was talking to a friend who is a neuro in the US but originally from India about the AZ and Bharat Biotech vaccines available in India. He expressed a mild preference for the AZ one, however would take BB if AZ was not readily available. According to him BB is a “copy” of the AZ vaccine and therefore low risk. He has recommended to his parents that they take the vaccine that is available as soon as it is available to them.
What is the proportion of Hindus among recent migrants from India to Canada?
Right now the number of Sikhs and Hindus in Canada is almost equal. I wonder how the politics there will evolve as this balance changes over the next decade.
I think Sikhs still outnumber Hindus for now. Though immigration from other areas have increased, over the years. From the right ‘Hindu’ areas i mean. Not the ‘woke’ Hindu areas. 😛
The politics might evolve on the same lines of the US though. First gen conservative, second gen Woke-max.
“The politics might evolve on the same lines of the US though.”
I feel like groups can maintain their cultures better in Canada than in the US. Probably because it is still a small country so the pressure to assimilate is relatively less. They also seem to have really bought into ‘multi-culturalism’ – something the rest of the west is moving away from.
This is just the view of an outsider based on observing folks I know who’ve moved to the two countries.
Someone more intimately familiar with the place can give a better idea.
Anti-cow bill passes in Karnataka. With Saurav’s link to news from Pakistan that they are implementing mandatory Arabic in their schools, we now see two divergent paths despite both societies being quite religious. One is importing a non-native language for reasons related to an identity crisis and the other is protecting animals. Which one is healthier?
I would not put that stark of a difference though. Both regions are trying to ape the ‘best practices’ of a more Hindu/Muslim region. Dont think Karnataka has any history of cow-slaughter and all. Only regions which pushed cow slaughter in the first round around the 60s and 70s like MP, UP etc are the ones which had this attachment to cows and stuff.
…ape the ‘best practices’ of a more Hindu region..
Still peddling your nonsense, huh. In many ways, this is the quintessential “lout-style-thinking” that marxists employ to reduce social problems to monochrome. In reality though, Indian marxists have reduced the cow slaughter problem to a savarna obsession with “culture over economics”. At least they make a well rounded rhetorical argument. You, on the other hand, merely insinuate all the time with no cogent explanation. I guess this is the furthest you can exert.
Its alright. I perhaps present a more crude way, of what essentially are the ground realities of India. Perhaps a more sophisticated person (as you said Marxists ) would present a well rounded version.
Nothing much would change though. Both will result in the same end set.
principia@
Karnataka’s both cultivator castes Lingayats in northern part and Vokkaligas in southern part of the State are devotees of Shiva(linga). Nandi in the form of a Bull is also worshipped along with Shivalinga. That coupled with Lingayath emphasis on vegetarianism means that the population is generally supportive of a ban on cow slaughter.
Shiva + Bull worship is believed to have started during IVC times. The 12 Jyotirlingas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyotirlinga) are considered the holiest places for Shaivism apart from the many Kuldevatas temples (Khandoba, Jotiba, Veerbhadra etc) who are also considered incarnations of Shiva. 9 of the 12 Jyotirlingas are in peninsular India. I don’t think I am the first one to suggest a correlation between IVC shifted population(s) and Shiva(linga) worship. I am not familiar with Tamil/Dravidian politics but we may be mistaking anit-brahmanism with anti-hindu. One can oppose brahmin domination and still be Hindu. I am using Hindu as a broader term for anyone following the native religious traditions of India which includes a tolerance of each other. Some sub-groups want to claim themselves to be more hindu to claim leadership and attendant rent-seeking opportunities.
‘I am not familiar with Tamil/Dravidian politics but we may be mistaking anit-brahmanism with anti-hindu.”
Old trick from Dravidian/Commie playbook. Once the Brahmin is neutralized, the next target will be the second in line Hindu caste. So on and so forth. And this is coming from someone who is not even Brahmin.
Who would know better than us (OBCs) ? When we were voting against the BJP in the 90s for commies/socialist, we were lionized as the rearguard of Secularism. When we started voting for BJP, we now are demonized as foot soldiers of Hindu right.
Saurav, the non-brahmin experience may be sufficiently different in Karnataka in that a monastic framework is very robust and long-standing among lingayats and vokkaligas. Its not a situation where cutting off the head (brahmins), kills the beast, as it may be up north. Furthermore, this system may be, as far as we know, the very reason for the survival and low attrition from hinduism in the deccan, considering islamicate rule was sustained here for considerable time. Another thing, despite the reputation among some that the south in many ways is developmentally advanced, because of our language cocoon, our elites in some ways are not as rarified and deracinated as the lutyens set (i’m not sure “prison notebooks” has a kannada edition). Our socialists perhaps have not had the same contempt for tradition, and there is a genuine conservativism that manifests among the language protectionists. Basically our “Sadashivnagar” crowd doesn’t have disdain for our rural folk in the way south delhi does for its counterpart. These different mechanics lead me to think that the endgame for anti-brahmin feeling differs, and is more an assertion of localism (including devotional practices that brahmins don’t patronize)
The Southern Islamicate rule dwarfs in comparison to Northern one. So not sure South’s lower attrition is really due to monastic framework or just plain luck. On the contrary the rise of communism and Dravidianism as anti-Hindu forces despite South not having non-Hindu rule for long makes me believe that had Southern India seen a longer Muslim rule the attrition away from Hinduism would have been higher than the North.
Also the OBCs monastic framework are present in North as well. Many of them systematic dismantled but many like Goraknath etc have lived on. Again a long Muslim rule could have had the same results in the south. Brahmins are incidental to the whole process, and cutting them wouldn’t mean much. The current resurgence Hindu right in the North is being driven by OBCs , while Brahmins during the 2000s would vote for Congress etc just like every other caste group.
But yes on the difference of Southern elite vis-v Northern one, i wholly agree. The Southern elite both the vernacular and English speaking are closer to underclass, which the Northern elite can only dream off.
I should have been more specific about muslim rule, refering to the south above the krishna-tungabhadra basin, where it started in 1300 and continued until the peshwai era, and up until independence in those nizami regions. but in support of your point, it seems like the feudal elite in the upper south were still mainly hindu over all those centuries. Would be interesting to dive deeper into whether institutional hinduism is more elaborated in some regions vs others. Another point, the lingayat mutts are highly decentralized, and there are countless small town syndicates. Whats the correlate in Rajasthan and MP I wonder, among people who I interact with from these regions, the opinions of swamis don’t factor into social discourse it my experience.
+1 on Girmit’s point, although it is more of a monastic framework coupled with hereditary priestly sub-caste. For e.g. Lingayats rely on in-house Swamis for all their ritual needs including birth, death and marriage. I am not sure what is the situation in TN, MH or Hindi belt states. I remember back in his 2008-13 term, BSY had started giving government grants to Schools/institutions run by “mutts” of different castes and sub-castes including some considered as SCs. In KA, there is/was an increasing trend of each caste following the established template of monastic framework + priestly class. I am hoping this will reduce the inter-caste angst in KA and hopefully replicated all over India. A lot of caste friction is caused by having to depend on “social betters”.
Tamil OBCs in diaspora seem to observe all the normal rituals like other Indians except that may focus more on using tamil language and resistant to learning Hindi. I believe it is driven more by a desire to maintain their distinct sub-identity.
this measure is more in response to the muslims behaviour in coastal and highlands (malenadu) karnataka, where there have been many cases of cow thefts. there is a bit of friction between hindus and muslims here on this count. also bjp has very deep roots here.
secondly, jds also wanted bjp’s support to hit back at congress and bjp took its support in the bargain.
This is the second time in just four days that the govt is demanding Twitter to take down various accounts. Twitter is staring them in their eyes and calling their bluff. If Modi doesn’t introduce legislation then he is displaying shocking weakness, essentially allowing a private neoliberal company in the US to lord over Indian discourse.
Recently India’s ‘God of Cricket’ tweeted some vanilla comments on how “India issues are internal” and its a sovereign country. Mallus of course couldn’t stand that.
Less Hindu area—> Less Indian. At least the India we know about. Whether that’s a good or a bad thing is upto each individual.
lurker
3 years ago
Razib – My posts on this thread have been held up for some reason.
Cultural appropriation is largely about money and claiming historical prestige, aka increasing soft power, for one’s group. She is mad mostly white people directly profit off of American whites doing yoga. You have to think in a very tribalistic way to consistently come to the types of conclusions the crowd that always sees cultural appropriation in everything tends to come to. Does it exist? Sure. Is it as big of an issue as some of these academics make it out to be? Heck no.
IsThisReal
3 years ago
They made an ad on the protests to be shown in Cali during the super-bowl
And unsurprisingly, the outro track has “Jatt” in it, lol
If you’re spending so much money, then the least you could’ve done is make it neat and unbiased
Lol why make it unbiased? It was biased from the start. The whole procurement system biased, in terms who benefits from the current state of affairs. It makes sense the Jatt caste based rentier class that relies on government freebies to run their agricultural lands towards desertification on the backs of migrant and low caste labor, support this cause to protect their relatively higher incomes. It makes even more sense Khalistanis have latched on. This is their moment after decades to have even some sort of spotlight they can spin. They know, .movement wise, they bungled with the Air Canada hijacking, when it became quite clear what their central leadership involvement was. That was their last big moment as a movement. This issue is so easy for them. Their propaganda is strong. The Indian Right can learn a thing or two how to do Western appealing messaging from these people.
Honestly it is just as easy for the people at the protest to take Khalistani money and not support Khalistan as it is for Khalistanis to take ISI and CCP money and not support those illiberal entities. Granted, given the years of targeting killings of Hindus through Punjab in the 80s, the hardcore Jatt supremacism we even see here on any forum board, the entire fake encyclopedias like Jatwiki made online, I think the supremacism runs deep among the Khalistanis and really fuels their hate. The amount of anti bania just studd in Jatt media is incredible.
NM
3 years ago
Buckle up folks, Bollywood and Discovery are now onto AIT vs OIT
Elite warriors of copper age, The secrets of Sinuali
EmbarassedDiaspora
3 years ago
Don’t understand the desperate need people have for some sort of hindu nationalism or unity. What for? To combat those oh so terrifying mussies? Give me a break. There’s never been any kind of Hindu unity, just different groups of people with their own caste/family/region-specific rituals and traditions. This is the kind of ‘traditionalism’ that’s needed- one that can complement scientific and social progress; not the regressive, neo-fascist ideology that’s promoted by the right and tacitly supported by moderates.
Of course, there are things that need to be changed, namely how much sway caste holds over socioeconomic and political outcomes, but this wish for some unification of all the hindus in the world is little more than aping the abrahamic understanding of the world and history, and even they, after centuries, haven’t been able to figure it out.
If India started an extermination campaign either within its borders or against bordering regions (Kashmir, Pak), just think about the legacy that kind of act will leave behind. Hindus are not the biggest victims of history (not even close), and yet they’ve stumbled into the status of oppressor without having ‘earned’ it. If they acted on this unearned status as tyrant, how would India not become a laughing stock in the annals of history? Acts of evil with none of the ‘benefits’ like science, tech, art, philosophy, etc. No one would want to be associated with hinduism any longer and it would just get absorbed into abrahamic faiths who would claim it as their own (the way white nationalists try to claim the Vedas as products of ‘white’ aryans).
Instead of setting up an alternative to the West and China, hindus just want to show that they have bigger dicks. No vision, no looking ahead, just a fixation on stale grievances.
And think about the disapora. We’re minorities everywhere else in the world; think about how humiliating it would be, having to explain to everyone else how we’re good hindus, not nutjobs like the genocidal maniacs ‘back home’. There goes your pan-hindu unity.
Embarrasseddiaspora your post also embarrassed us by being fact and logic free. Hope the diaspora can produce more independent and intelligent thinkers. You can secede from India or Hindus – we will bear the huge(:-)) loss
If Muslims showed even half the guilt and remorse that you did, they’d all have left Islam already : )
No vision, no looking ahead
You sure sound like a policy expert.
just a fixation on stale grievances
How is worrying about everyday incidents involving Muslims killing (over religion)/ forcefully converting Hindus a “stale grievance”?
Just to be clear, nobody here condones Hindus killing Muslims either.
The difference is that the a Hindu killing a Muslim gets way more coverage than the other way around. That’s the annoying and counter-intuitive part. You think it’s possible to build a better society by simply bashing one group’s bigotry, while barely even acknowledging what another religion does? Can’t clap with one hand.
Bash bigots from all religions, why the bias, what good do people think they’re gonna achieve by not condemning assholes from one part of the society? And not being honest also invites more anger.
If you care a lot about what others (I guess westerners, to be exact) think about you, then do what you feel is the best for you. Stop misrepresenting others by calling their grievances “stale” or casually throwing around words like “genocidal maniac”.
Vedas were produced by Sanskrit speakers. Where Sanskrit originated and who are/were its native speakers? What does it mean Rg and Veda? What does it mean ‘white nationalists’? Which nation?
thewarlock
3 years ago
*The amount of just anti-bania stuff in Jatt media is incredible. The Modi-Shah stuff has an interesting caste flavor to it as well I think. It amounts to the irrational suspicion of an anti semitism towards Jews in the American Industrial Age. No one is saying there are progroms, but there is certainly open bias that in aggregate can even be argued as hatred against Bania origin people.
I always love the disclaimers of “Sikhism is anti-caste.” Yes it is in theory. But in practice, some of the most hardcore casteists, who say stuff about “Chamars, churas, brahmins, banias, etc.” that would make most people’s skin crawl along with the blatant caste based riots to secure disproportionate government benefits, are evidence to all about the retained casteist attitudes. The Indian Constitution is also anti-caste. It doesn’t mean people listen.
How do SC, NGT judgments impact the economy? NITI Aayog commissions study to find out
Ugra
3 years ago
NM already posted the trailer link to the upcoming Sinauli show on Discovery Plus.
One of the archaeologists is stating on the trailer – Sinauli is the most important discovery of the 21st century so far. It is going to overturn a lot of treasured theories in the West.
There are feverish attempts to appropriate or spin Sinauli by Western Indologists. But the Indian archaeological establishment is standing firm. I wrote a detailed dissection of Parpola’s contorted attempt to classify them as early Aryans.
So far the Indian archaeological record was silent on the AIT/AMT question. This allowed western Indologists to get away with the argumentum ex silentio escape card. But now Sinauli is falsifying AIT/AMT in every way possible – the date, the location and the cultural landscape.
There are three pieces of archaeological evidence –
1. The Chariot burial – This is quite the star of the show. Enough has been said on this.
2. Rice in funerary jars @ the chariot burial – This blows up many chestnuts in western Indology. If we all agree with the contention that rice is not found in the Rgveda but only in the Yajur, then we start pushing the dates for Rgveda into the 3rd millennium.
3. Royal burials – A large hoard of weapons and gold ornaments point to a necropolis for the ruling class. This is very much in contrast to Harappan burials.
Early attempts at synchronicity of the textual tradition with the archaeological data shows a close match with burial rites mentioned in the Shatapatha Brahmana.
Regardless , it WILL present a native-Indian view. Of how we were the inventor of most things. I dont think ,considering the political climate, anyone would take a chance of doing otherwise.
Yes, you can say that – a OIT favorable view. More precisely it is presenting the view of the Indian archaeological establishment. The fact that they are doing this is unprecedented. That was what I was referring to….
The Sinauli team’s findings has been swept under the carpet by the Indian historical establishment – it is just astounding. The earliest chariot burial this far in the East has been from China in 1100 BC (Yin dynasty). This one pushes the record back by a full 800 years.
And of course we have Indologists to hand who are just ready with their “ox-cart” sticker. There was no horse in the grave, so it cannot be a chariot. But there was no ox in the grave either. Therefore it must be a motorized cart or perhaps the dead man pulled it himself – the earliest rickshawallah in antiquity!
Many years ago, in Liverppol Indology list discussions , referring to arya on chariots as ‘panzers’ created a storm in the tea cup. It all the heated discussions that followed it was not clear who first used the expression and the blame was laid on many people and the term was repudiated completely. Ghosts of nazis easily falls in indological discussions
https://theprint.in/national-interest/modi-govt-has-lost-farm-laws-battle-now-raising-sikh-separatist-bogey-will-be-a-grave-error/599860/
Modi govt has lost farm laws battle, now raising Sikh separatist bogey will be a grave error
https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/nationalism-new-india-protest-democracy-pb-mehta-7176577/
” There are a lot of thinking people who would argue, on policy, both that the government is wrong and the farmers’ position might not be tenable in its entirety. Neither the government’s nor the farmers’ position addresses the long-term challenges of the environment. But equally, the government’s position does not address the real long-term issues of precarity in the agriculture sector.
You claim you were ready to compromise, put the Bills in abeyance. But that will not be enough for two reasons. You denied standing to those who disagreed; they were the ground on which allegiances were tested, not policy debated. It is abundantly clear the changes Indian agriculture requires cannot be done within the framework of these Bills. The only way to move forward is to repeal the bills and start from first principles. You will get new allies and a better outcome.”
India’s foremost liberal commentator on farm laws. ?
BJP needs a vajpayee type of smooth talker more than ever
Does someone have a clubhouse invite? Lots of interesting discussions on economics, history and genetics that I’d like to listen in to but currently missing out on. Let me know! ?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/theprint.in/india/rihannas-fenty-beauty-under-scanner-in-india-for-using-mica-from-mines-hiring-child-labour/599647/%3ffbclid=IwAR1Un3A5czUJGXgtmrmGk-isptYvPAvocKAVhJQcMnPiUIO3-lKJ1Ja8_ys&
Rihanna Fenty Beauty brand under lens in India for ‘using mica from mines hiring child labour’
Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others
Dude, everybody in the internet era lives in a glass house (in more ways than one). All that matters is (1) how much attention your house attracts and (2) how many people you can muster to throw stones at another’s.
mistake of vajpayee, smooth talk over hard power, mistake of modi,only hard power and no place for diplomacy.
I don’t know what could be more diplomatic than giving in to almost all farmer demands and treating the tractor rally in the capital with kid gloves.
That is after they protested, diplomacy works best before. Find out who will be the most resistant to change and bring them over first.
You folks know about this guy, Balaji Viswanathan? He primarily posts on Quora, and is quite brilliant and insightful. He’s the CEO of his own robotics company and is well versed in literally everything. Check him out at: https://www.quora.com/profile/பாலாஜி-விஸ்வநாதன்-Balaji-Viswanathan
Razib, very good talk on hominid tool findings in South India; going on right now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R2qp53jrH4&feature=youtu.be
anyone ask genetics related Questions
i don’t think talkers know genertics
“Rihanna Rallies to the Wrong Cause in India: Farmers protest in defense of a dysfunctional system, and Modi has treated them relatively gently.”
By Sadanand Dhume | Feb. 4, 2021
https://www.wsj.com/articles/rihanna-rallies-to-the-wrong-cause-in-india-11612465735
“What do Rihanna, Greta Thunberg and Vice President Kamala Harris’s niece, Meena Harris, have in common? They’re all rallying support for India’s farmer protests, which are morphing from an arcane domestic dispute into an emotive international cause. And they’re all mostly wrong in their thinking. …
“There’s nothing wrong with celebrities taking an interest in events half a world away. But when it comes to the farmer protests, celebrity Twitter activism is based on a reductive caricature of complex issues as a faceoff between colorfully turbaned sons of the soil and a thuggish government backed by evil corporations.
“If you dig into the details, the moral questions become less clear. Protesting farmers may have understandable fears about their futures, but they come mostly from a relatively privileged minority who benefit from an unsustainable procurement system set up more than 50 years ago. …”
Came across this trailer for an Indo-African rom com (Indian guy, Nigerian girl).
TBH I have never seen any Indian person dating a black person in real life, though I am sure there would be some.
For Netflix to be chasing this kind of demographic, they must really have exhausted all other combinations.
I do hope Indians start taking more interest in Africa.
—
Namaste-Wahala
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJzCtDD-FDQ
I’m sure you know this, but Kamala Harris’ parents are Black & Indian.
I think Black & Indian marriages are somewhat more common in the Caribbean, although I’ve also heard that there are sometimes tensions between Indians and Blacks, particularly in Guyana.
But yea, beyond that, it’s not all that common, esp given some Indians’ prejudices toward Black people (not sure if Black people have prejudices against Indians, but wouldn’t be surprised… see Uganda, Guyana).
A marriage probably in the 1900’s, a Barbadian (Educated in England) was a judge in Ceylon married to Ceylon Burgher/Eurasian. One of the daughters Estelle Roberts was my mothers (Peace BeeBee) classmate.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wWozVCoEP8qS24zf7
Classmate who was radio officer married a Somali and they both lived in Sri Lanka
Classmates son (they live in US) married to an african american
I have dated a few African Americans while living in the US
over the last 6 months BP is now consistently getting more traffic from india than the usa…
can become big. conversations that dont get heard on mainstrem can become a bridge to better understanding.
google ‘dougla’
about 20% of trinidad’s population is mixed indian black
re: famous ppl
– chill of tlc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rozonda_Thomas
– tatyana ali https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatyana_Ali
Chili isn’t Trinidadian (I believe her father is from Bangladesh and her mother is American Black), but yes, she is fairly representative of the look.
You forget arguably the most famous example: Nicki Minaj. Although more specifically, her father is a Dougla, her mother is Afro-Trinidadian.
I myself am of Dougla descent, though more Indian than African. One of my great-grandmothers was a true Trinidadian Dougla.
Nice little write-up on the topic:
http://rewindandcomeagain.com/west-indian-word-of-the-week-dougla/
Thanks Indo-Carib for the link.
Some of the photos rhyme with the Sri Lankan look.
When in the US, I almost never mistook Indians for Sri Lankans.
Often mistook Trinidadians etc for Sri Lankans
This is a foodie video of Lankan restaurants in Staten Island, NY
The narrator, Skiz Fernando is Sri Lankan too. Skiz says he is pure Sinhalese, all I can say is hmm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_70mpid-3Pw
For those who want to see India’s economic differential vis-a-vis Pakistan in terms of their sub-regions. You probably had some inkling about the differential but it is bigger than you think. Quite big! There is a vast gulf – the below video shows a time lapse from 1970 to 2020 on how the regions fared –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjEC0LP-M_8
To put in perspective, Kerala in 1970 was already bigger than the economy of Balochistan. Today Kerala’s GDP is bigger than all of Pakistan minus Punjab. By 2030, Kerala will outstrip Pakistan.
Today Tamilnadu’s GDP is bigger that of Pakistan with only one third of its population. Big brother Maharashtra is playing in another league.
The difference is stark – we are going to enter a period of flux before the end of this decade. No entity within the Westphalian framework can survive this level of power differential without coping mechanisms (trade bridge, peace treaties, vassal status etc).
I think China colonizing Pak will be good. They will run the country better than the radical islamists and their corrupt zamindar panderers would. Ideally, market minded leaders, who are anti military industrial complex controlling everything, rise up there. For now, China’s strong guiding hand, despite there for an unequal bargain, is still better than the likely status quo.
No. All China wants is to suck Pakistan dry of it’s resources , be it’s consumer for it’s industrial products,supplier of raw materials and where Chinese capital can be invested on terms set by China, and China can give ‘loans’ to pakistan at exorbitant rates. In return China will support Pakistan in it’s attempt to grab Indian territory, and pakistan will keep quiet about China’s minorities like Uyghurs
In other words colonise Pakistan economically.
VijayVan
I assume you have heard of the Colombo Harbor East Container Terminal spat with India. SL has decided not to lease to India/Japan consortium.
India has ended the Swap agreement with SL.
Also a clause to get IMF backing to extend the Swap.
That seemed a odd clause because India and IMF are not really buddy buddies.
Then realized India is part of the Quad.
So maybe India game plan maybe to get IMF to force ECT to India.
Then the Quad directly or indirectly has a foothold in SL
Sbarrkum
India is cautious about Quad, rightly so. India has not been part of military alliances after 1947 so it is cautious. Even 5 year from now, can’t be sure about India’s entanglement in Quad. Indian foreign office is always suspicious about US intentions
The Chinese loans carry a significantly lower interest rates than the Paris Club and other loans from multilateral parties that still form the majority of Pakistan’s external debt. Not only that, the Chinese usually rollover these loans and are very flexible, the same cannot be said of other Western creditors. Chinese economic influence in Pakistan has had a net positive affect, they have collaborated in building and modernizing road, rail, port and power infrastructure in Pakistan that has already started yielding positive dividends will continue doing so in the near future. The power crisis of the 2010’s that decimated the textile industry is mostly a thing of the past. I don’t see any security concerns either, Pakistani establishment is good at playing both sides and any future Chinese threat can be easily countered by shifting the balance back towards the West.
I fail to see any downsides for Pakistan in its close cooperation with China both on the economic and military front.
Exactly. Pak will run bettrer under Xi.
S Qureishi
Same can be said of China Lanka relations.
Low rates some outright grants, infrastructure development.
More specially, no strings like privatizing national institutions, austerity measures etc
I can attest to that. The state of the roads and infra in Colombo that was Chinese made was much better than anything in Indian cities. The highways in SL that I traveled on (Colombo- Jaffna, Jaffna – Trinco) were smooth and spotless. And Jaffna itself was genteel and peaceful, with great roads and construction activity (the odd bombed out building that I expected was very rare but could still be seen). Chinese infra construction is nothing but a boon to these nations, and can only lead to positives.
The Chinese loans carry a significantly lower interest rates than the Paris Club….
Chinese debt agreements come with several parts – a loan agreement and a concessional agreement. If you are referring to the “sticker price”, you are correct. But if you look at the concessions – they have a discounted value that totally alters the overall picture.
Many of the concessionary side-agreements are opaque and are not released to the debtor country’s public for consumption. For most African countries and Asian low income countries like Pakistan, Srilanka – the Chinese have not offered portfolio debt (sovereign bonds) but direct loans. Which means that the repayment is backed by a collateral (minerals, mining rights or land FTA). Look at Page 38 in the below document.
https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w26050/revisions/w26050.rev0.pdf
If it is not clear yet, the Chinese are “exporting capital”, not providing sovereign loans. There is a world of difference between the two. It is not a free lunch.
I think you are naive to think that there is no ‘concessional value’ provided to Western creditors on top of the exorbitant interest rates they also happen to charge that stifles growth and condemns those countries to prolonged periods of stagnation and poverty. Their system is designed to make these loans stay on the country’s balance sheet while the actual funds are siphoned off by the corrupt elite back to Western banks and institutions, all the while collecting interest and receiving political concessions. Just take a look at where the elite in all developing countries stash their money.
China actually builds infrastructure on the ground, that promotes growth. I don’t see what is wrong in exporting their surplus capital. Perhaps the bidding process is not opaque, but things get made, as opposed to the previous creditors where most funds were lost to corruption. This debt trap diplomacy allegations have been circling for years now, mostly by American think tanks with ties to the American security establishment that seek to discredit the Chinese. The results however speak a different story.
In any case, Pakistan is clearly benefiting from the Chinese, which is why the full tilt towards them in the last few years and the results on the ground are visible to us.
@ S Quereshi
You are wilfully ignorant.
In case of sovereign debt, if the debtor cannot pay up – the lender takes a haircut. For the debtor – their credit ratings take a dive. The next loan will have higher interest rates. So this system works with transparently set rates and insolvency declarations.
For the credit lines that China is offering – it is always against a concession. In case the debtor cannot pay, the lender will seize assets earmarked for such eventualities. So you are only mortgaging your family jewels for some cash that you are anyway going to pay interest on.
In the case of sovereign debt, the lender is also interested in the investment model because he is going to take a haircut in case of failure. So they insist on actions (austerity programs) that will mitigate risk for them.
But China is a pawnbroker – they don’t care where you are going to take their money and put it in. They even take concessions in bidding for inflated turnkey contracts to build that asset. So they make money thrice – in interest payments, in executive contracts to build it and also if the asset model fails. Finest piece of shylocking I have ever seen!!
@Ugra
You should look up what happened to Argentina when they refused to pay and defaulted on their sovereign bonds. They aren’t still out of it and the country, which was one of the richest and most industrialized is now perpetually bankrupted with no relief in sight. Creditors don’t take a haircut, they get their pound of flesh and all the ‘concessions’ and ‘assets’ along with the higher interest rates.
As I said, the difference is just cosmetics. If you think the global monetary system is not rigged to favor a few players, then it is not me who is being willfully ignorant.
The Chinese lending model is working for many countries that know the alternative is much much worse.
@ S Qureishi
Haha….you chose the exact example I wanted to show. Argentina defaulted to be confronted with years of currency and fiscal crisis’s. But they did not lose any sovereignty. The debt was restructured to fit a newer schedule – Argentines actually met the targets by late 2006. Debt-trap diplomacy is a reality – ask the Tajiks. What you say may be a matter of perspective. The perennial debtor is always shilled by shiny offerings.
I am not sure how you define ”met targets”. Repaying the IMF does not mean anything, Argentina is currently seeking a $44billion bailout from the IMF, last year it had a run on its banks..
The fundamental issues were never resolved, Western creditors and vulture hedge funds did not take a haircut for their bad investments in Argentina, and even after 2006, Argentina’s external debt has ballooned, it’s deficits up, state assets privatized and cannibalized, and the country is facing another sovereign debt crisis. It’s a shining example of how to bleed one of the richest countries on the planet dry. Not sure how this is better than what China is doing (taking over the reigns of building productivity increasing infrastructure themselves)
Besides, at least for Pakistan, there is little to worry about Sovereignty. Sovereignty is guaranteed by the military, not gold.
Agree with Sbrakkum and Quereshi here. No amount of hand gesturing by Quad/West will help Sri Lanka or Pakistan unless they are willing to put their money where the mouth is. And China is the only country willing or was willing to invest when the chips were down.
Indias joining up with IMF (because of Quad) affiliation, makes sense if you read article below.
Also SL refused a US, Millennium Challenge Corp aid/grant of 400million. Even though the US kept pushing to give it/SL accept it.
===========================
Final question: these austerity and anti-labor policies which the IMF imposes on countries of the global South seem to be well known practices from before the IMF was created, from what you’ve discussed. Did the IMF invent anything new? In addition, in the 19th century, was predatory lending something common, or was direct invasion always the go-to method for subjugating a territory?
Prof Hudson
The 19th century was really the golden age of industrial capitalism. Countries wanted to invest to make a profit. They didn’t want to invest in dismantling an existing industry, because there wasn’t much industry to dismantle. They wanted to make profit by creating industry. There was a lot of investment in infrastructure, and it almost always lost money. For instance, there was recently a criticism of China saying, “Doesn’t China know that the Panama Canal went bankrupt again and again, and that all the investments in canals and the railroads all went broke again and again?” Of course China knows that. The idea is that you make investment not to make a profit on basic large infrastructure. The 19th century was basically inter-state lending, inter-governmental lending, public sector lending. That’s where the money was made. The late 20th century was one of financialization, dismantling the industry that was already in place, not lending to create industry to make a profit. It’s asset-stripping, not profit-seeking.
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2021/02/michael-hudson-changes-in-super-imperialism.html
I think China colonizing Pak will be good.
That’s what I meant by vassal state. Chinese mercantilist attitudes are quite exploitative – they already show that in every continent. They are going to sink their incisors deep into Pakistan’s sinews. On the other hand, they might throw them under the bus also.
I pointed out Kerala as a illustration to show that even Indian Communism has a leg up over Islamicate/Sharia systems in perceiving societal problems and figuring out sustainable solutions. Kerala went all out in land reform and universal education during the EMS years. They dismantled rent seeking structures and really figured out ways to make people understand their basic entitlements. I have myself dissed some of Kerala’s mechanisms in the past but I am going to put a line in my diary from now on.
@Razib thank you for brining up the fact that the “Sintashta were swarthy” on Nick Barksdale channel.
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXkPxtbQlQU )
Many YT channels bordering on promoting Nordic supremacy use the IE to promote their agenda. Indians having been opposing AIT give away an opportunity to make broader connection to the IE traditions and Vedic ones.
The fact that the “Sintashta were swarthy” need to promoted heavily. The Nordic supremacy YT channels need to be countered.
I did say this in a different way. Yamnaya R1b (today’s ‘westerners’) were not white. They became white when they came in contact with Vincha (I1/I2) people in Europe. So as the original Greeks, who were neither white nor spoke ‘Indo-European’ language.
In the thread: ”The great drama…”, Phy says – ‘From a historic perspective, it is whites who did terrible things to others. And many who recall history fall for the fact of being white as in itself a category of somehow being bad reinforced by actual racists in present world.’
Accordingly, considering the above, the previous quotation is equivalent to what I said before – ‘R1b (who originally were not whites!) started almost all wars in last 5000 years and conducted many genocides since they first came from Russian steppes to Europe’.
One historian writing about Vincha, said anecdotally (I will write about this more extensively) that – “In Vincha lived the last good people”, alluding that that they did not experienced any war for 2000 years before Yamnaya and had achieved the highest levels of technology, arts, architecture and social organisation. After that started a chain of wars and conquerings which did not stop until today.
Also, so as we said that the term ‘Indo-European’ is meaningless, we can say the same for the term ‘Caucasian’, which is used only in US and adopted from the Bible.
LOL, the (video on IE) comments sections shows that seemed to have completely ignored the “swarthy” skin color part and selectively focusing on ~ 25% blue eye color.
eNeM, there is something for you to focus while listening one old Serbian from 1971:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Da4Ax6dqM
PS. Someone asked me about this old Serbian singer (he is still alive). For music lovers, there is another song from him performed alive 40 years after its recording (in 2014). The song’s name is ‘Odysseya’ (which means an endless life quest and journey). Of course, the seasoned pundits already know that Odyssey himself was a Serbian ancient traveler who was for 20 years returning from the battle for Troy.
The singer at that time had a world tour with other famous world singers – Mireille Mathieu, Dusty Springfield, Tom Jones, Engelbart Humperdinck. In addition, pundits can notice for 2 seconds an Indian violinist playing in orchestra.
The translation of the song – “Odysseya”
Way to fame and fortune, way to the throne
It was always the same from the beginning
The road to hell and abyss, the road to debacle
It was always the same from the beginning
No one knows what will happen, what to expect
Yesterdays leaves us a trail in the hair
The past and the future, the same story
Everything that shines ain’t always gonna be gold
Odyssey, odyssey, the path of thorns or the path of orchids
Odyssey, odyssey, life is just a new odyssey
No one knows what will happen…
Odyssey, odyssey, the path of thorns …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P-DylIaNsQ
… and for your perusal”
Rig Veda Mandala 2, Hymn 12
“Even the Heaven and Earth bow down before him, before his very breath the mountains tremble.
Known as the Soma-drinker, armed with thunder, who wields the bolt, He, O ye men, is Indra.”
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Rig_Veda/Mandala_2/Hymn_12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaVZbtqloDA
https://www.jatland.com/home/Sardar_Ballabh_Bhai_Patel
Sardar Patel was apparently a Jat…
😉
Jatland wiki ah man, such a wonderful resource. 🙂
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indians-are-claiming-chitral-and-kohistan-too-as-indian-territory.670124/
Amusing thread all around. The commentors don’t realize that they are just as hateful and delusional as the people they are criticizing.
If India is serious about power projection then it needs to stop doing business deals through Western-controlled institutions like the IMF. Ideally, set up your own banking infrastructure like China did with AIIB. India now has foreign exchange reserves around 600 billion dollars, and still rapidly rising. Why not start with a capital base of around 100 billion USD and then start lending it out to countries in exchange for geopolitical favours?
As for Pakistan, it is untrue that China’s loans are predatory. Their interest rates are typically quite low. However, it is very telling that China is now dragging its feet to give out new loans to Pakistan.
China and Pakistan fall out over Belt and Road frameworks
Meanwhile, Pakistan is seeking 12 billions in new loans from the World Bank.
The Chinese have gotten smarter and understood the game that Pakistanis play. They are trying to play both sides off each other and just gobble up more loans, which is inevitably going to the local oligarchs and feudal landlords. So Beijing is now starting to sit this one out. World Bank is going to demand tougher conditions. IMF is already demanding that Pakistan let its exchange rate be free.
It’s a country that is basically a black hole that just sucks resources. I always felt it was way overestimated in international affairs and Beijing is now coming to that conclusion, too. Use it as a hedge against India, yes, but free-for-all subsidies are coming to an end.
https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/3080219/liangzhu-5000-year-old-chinese-civilisation-time
good read. razib you should check out this
Indians should stop Pakistani obsession and instead compare ourselves to China – a worthy rival. Even the richest of India’s small states is barely at the same level as China’s poorest. Let’s fix that.
I really wish there was a vocal section of India’s left that pushed for universal education and large scale labour intensive growth. Instead we have petty union netas and idiotic culture warriors.
The right is weirdly obsessed with playing some intractable 4D chess games while the demographic dividend withers away.
Let’s fact it, Hindus don’t have a unified cultural&national consciousness yet. We’re all insular AF in our Castes&States. Indians just don’t have a unified cultural&historical narrative to rally behind besides “Fuck Pakistan”, and even that rhetoric has its limits.Most South&NE Indians don’t give a damn about Pakistan or the “Muslim Problem”.
“I really wish there was a vocal section of India’s left that pushed for universal education and large scale labour intensive growth”
Indian Right already does that with its Socialist policies, its just that the quality of Govt Healthcare&Education in India remains dogshit due to a lack of funding,manpower&redtape. As far as labour intensive growth is concerned, the Infra&political will just isn’t there. If there was ever a chance to take advantage of demographic dividend, we’re already missed it. Calling it a “demographic disaster” is more apt. India should start investing in block chains and A.I, IT Sector is the only goddamn silver lining we got.
Your statement about South India is laughably wrong.
Laughably Wrong, eh? Tell me, who in Tamil Nadu and Kerala worries about “The Muslim Problem”? I must’ve missed them.
” The Justin Trudeau government in Canada has finally woken up to death threats to Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Indian consul general at Vancouver made by pro-Khalistan separatists on January 26 and provided armed guard security to top Indian diplomats in Ottawa and Vancouver on Saturday.
In a diplomatic note to Canadian foreign ministry, the Indian high commission on February 2 informed that one Inderjit Singh Bains made death threats against Prime Minister Modi on January 26 outside the Vancouver consul general office and posted on the Facebook account of fellow separatist Narinder Singh Khalsa.
The letter from Indian high commission to Canadian foreign ministry makes it amply clear that death threats to the Indian Prime Minister constitutes an act of terrorism and requested that the matter should be thoroughly investigated and the action should be taken against the individuals to mitigate any security risk posed.”
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/trudeau-govt-wakes-up-to-death-threat-to-pm-modi-provides-security-to-envoys-101612678127959.html
These radical extremists must be brought to justice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XUk240ASDs&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=ThePrint
good video on the Canada situation and their hypocrisy of supporting such measures when complaining to the WTO but then turning around and now supporting the middle man riot and caste agitation
https://www.firstpost.com/world/new-york-assembly-passes-resolution-calling-for-declaration-of-kashmir-american-day-india-expresses-concern-9278561.html
Just LMFAO. Pak diaspora is about 10x better than Indian one at PR games.
I speculate that in the long run, India and the US will most likely experience severe ideological conflicts. The American elites are the descendants of Macauley, however they want to convert India and its elites towards American rather than British values. Look at Afghanistan to see exactly how successful that’s been.
The most important aspect of the last 3 decades in India are arguably the rise of Hindu nationalism and increasing displacement of Nehruvian values in both theory and practice as economic liberalisation and the growing wealth of India has led to confidence in indigenous Indian values. This caused an increasing rejection of liberal Western values and the universalism that underpins those values.
The core doctrine of Hindu nationalism as espoused by Savarkar is modernisation without Westernisation,. The failures of the West in the past two decades have made it a fair less appealing model.
The only people who hate American lecturing and self righteousness on human rights more than than Chinese elites are Indian elites. I have no doubt, future govs and probably the current Biden administration will use the tools of the American state to push for liberal western values in Bharat.
Unfortunately for them, India’s political and ideological elite are increasingly moving towards various forms of Hindu nationalism in a clear rejection of Ambedkar and Nehru.
Modi will not be replaced by a Brown Trudeau or Macron type. The current conflicts the Indian government has with Twitter offer a small taste of what to come in the coming decades as Indian elites aim to reverse 1757 and push for a neo Dharmic state as a replacement to and alternative to the liberal western model.
Ram mandir may be viewed in future history textbooks as the moment India made a definitive break with liberal western values to pursue its own path to modernity and wealth.
Certainly, long term readers of razib have seen him grow more and more disillusioned with western liberalism particularly in the US as it devolves into some sort of oligarchic neo tribal deconstructionist nightmare.
Perhaps India’s elites will pay some lip service to liberal values for the next decade or two, but I speculate we will eventually see Indian leaders who fully reject John Locke in favour of Sanatana Dharma.
We’re entering a century where non western conceptualisations of modernity are increasingly becoming less abstract and more concrete.
> the rise of Hindu nationalism and increasing displacement of Nehruvian values in both theory and practice as economic liberalisation and the growing wealth of India has led to confidence in indigenous Indian values
I am not convinced. If the BJP loses power (strong chances, what with all the protests that are going on), everything will go back to square one. The elites will come back with a vengeance.
For all desis running on the greencard-hamster-wheel, pay attention to oncoming traffic.
https://twitter.com/danheld/status/1338861737030733828
35% of all US dollars in existence have been printed in (the last) 10 months.
Now this is the kind of alarmist headline hunting tweet, every social butterfly wants to make on her feed. But the underlying sentiments and facts can be vouched for. Go to the St. Louis Fed website and check their time series for M1 supply. The tweet actually underestimates the explosive growth in 2020.
There cannot be a happy ending to this – macro-economically there will be severe consequences for world trade and comparative advantages. Some countries are going to sink and some are going to float. Just keep looking out for the sake of yourselves – the hamster wheel might make an unscheduled stop at the Weimar Republic.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/india/climate-change-behind-uttarakhand-glacier-burst-experts-feel/amp_articleshow/80736594.cms
Climate change behind Uttarakhand glacier burst, experts feel
Macron slams Twitter by attacking its outsized power unilaterally shaping in public discourse:
https://twitter.com/Satyanewshi/status/1358409145083256832
This is on the heels of Polish (and soon Hungarian) anti-censorship laws for right-wingers. Are we going to see anything similar in India? Or is Modi too scared?
Joe Biden, the New Brezhnev
The emerging Biden doctrine suffers from the same problem, however, as the Brezhnev Doctrine did half a century ago. Each act of resistance – and there will be many in the years to come – undermines the hegemon’s credibility and self-confidence. After the Prague Spring was extinguished in 1968, and just beneath the drab surface of the reality of life under Communism, anti-Sovietism was rampant all over Eastern Europe. Back then, and for almost two decades thereafter, members of the Politburo were old, sluggish, devoid of ideas, and oblivious to the challenges their hegemony would soon face.
In contrast, America’s current neoconservative-neoliberal duopoly, back in power under the Biden-Harris regime, is neurotically hyperactive and still convinced that global hegemony can be reimposed as a morally mandated, open-ended, and self-justifying mission. This is madness. Leonid Brezhnev and his Politbureau comrades were dull and dumb, but by the late 1980’s they were rational enough to grasp that it was time to fold. Their contemporary heirs in Washington are insane, and therefore they will never go into that gentle night without a bang. But, there is hope. Quos deus vult perdere, dementat prius (Those whom God would destroy, He first deprives of reason).
https://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/blog/joe-biden–the-new-brezhnev/
https://www.dawn.com/news/1604889
“Senate approves bill mandating Arabic be taught in all Islamabad schools”
Less-Muslim region trying to catch up to Alpha-Muslim region.
It seems (based on cursory Twitter reading) that the military is consolidating ever more power in Pakistan with or without the connivance of Imran Khan’s “selected” government. Can Pakistanis (Syed?) confirm if this perception is true?
Perhaps Pakistan could do better under a military regime modeled on China’s communist state. Having single-minded focus on the economy with no distractions of elections, being able to make tough decisions and inflict near to medium term pain for long-term gains are all much more feasible under a (soft) dictatorship than under the tyranny of elections. China has proven this model, and so did other military regimes in Asia (Korea etc). We know that the military is corrupt, but so are civilian politicians, and CCP leaders, but would they be more effective? Sharad Pawar is known to be among the most corrupt politicians in India but even his detractors agreed that he was good for business. The same could apply in this case too. If somehow we could guarantee that Pakistan would become a middle income country in 25 years under a military regime would that be such a bad thing?
This would not work for India for many reasons including the mind boggling amount of diversity across caste, religion, region, language and race, and our unique path since independence (vs. Pakistan’s experience and tolerance /celebration of several military regimes). So really, just interested in hearing what folks of such a model for Pakistan.
https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/the-ruling-party-s-odd-inability-to-promote-a-good-idea-11612710184099.html
” In some respects, they are doomed by the very nature of storytelling. A story is more farce than anthropology because of its two requirements—plot movement and entertainment. The moral arc is the easiest way to move a story, and the triumph of the underdog is a combination of movement and entertainment. The triumph of morality and of the underdog are not truths of the world, but two powerful plot devices that the world has forgotten are plot devices. In the face of such devices, the strong and the successful are no match for the lamenters. The strong always tell bad stories.
Also, the party has the talent of preaching to the converted, but not to the rest. Any priest can preach to converts, but it takes a prophet to convert. An organization of priests will naturally make it hard for prophets to rise.One of the reasons why strongmen have risen to power around the world is that intellectuals have become so despicable that even when they make sense, people doubt sense itself. This works the other way round, too. To a section of people in India and elsewhere, the BJP is such a cultural villain that they wish to believe the very opposite of what the party says is good for the nation.”
The pandemic seems done for for now in Delhi.
Took my mom to the hospital for an ultrasound today. So much crowd and little social distancing. The Covid wards are still fairly empty.
Hoping it stays this way ??
Thanks man for some good news. My parents have grown really restless with stays at home and all, and are planning a trip to Kashmir and Shimla. Even though I am vehemently against it. Don’t know if I can convince them to stay back till they get vaccinated.
Saurav/Prats, have you guys been advising your parents on which vaccine to take? We’ve got paralysis by analysis with mine, I’m wondering if either of the available two are better than waiting for moderna.
I am waiting for efficacy numbers for India to be released. Would have defaulted to AstraZeneca but the new results on the South African strain have put that decision on hold.
Also keep hearing from our acquaintances who are ‘in the know’ in the medical community that the Bharat Biotech vaccine is actually superior. I need to investigate this further.
The Novavax vaccine is also supposed to be available widely in the summer.
Was talking to a friend who is a neuro in the US but originally from India about the AZ and Bharat Biotech vaccines available in India. He expressed a mild preference for the AZ one, however would take BB if AZ was not readily available. According to him BB is a “copy” of the AZ vaccine and therefore low risk. He has recommended to his parents that they take the vaccine that is available as soon as it is available to them.
Unfortunately vaccine is another area where i am even more helpless wrt to my parents. Downsides of staying away from parents, i guess.
They are hell bent on getting whatever vaccine comes first out of the door, so that they dont have to stay home.
https://m.economictimes.com/tech/startups/bellatrix-aerospace-is-building-a-space-taxi-for-satellites/amp_articleshow/80740925.cms
Bellatrix Aerospace is building a ‘space taxi’ for satellites
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/farm-protests-indo-canadians-get-threat-calls-for-supporting-india-s-stance-101612765071904.html
Shocker…
What is the proportion of Hindus among recent migrants from India to Canada?
Right now the number of Sikhs and Hindus in Canada is almost equal. I wonder how the politics there will evolve as this balance changes over the next decade.
I think Sikhs still outnumber Hindus for now. Though immigration from other areas have increased, over the years. From the right ‘Hindu’ areas i mean. Not the ‘woke’ Hindu areas. 😛
The politics might evolve on the same lines of the US though. First gen conservative, second gen Woke-max.
“The politics might evolve on the same lines of the US though.”
I feel like groups can maintain their cultures better in Canada than in the US. Probably because it is still a small country so the pressure to assimilate is relatively less. They also seem to have really bought into ‘multi-culturalism’ – something the rest of the west is moving away from.
This is just the view of an outsider based on observing folks I know who’ve moved to the two countries.
Someone more intimately familiar with the place can give a better idea.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/anti-cow-slaughter-bill-passed-in-karnataka-legislative-council-7180150/
Anti-cow bill passes in Karnataka. With Saurav’s link to news from Pakistan that they are implementing mandatory Arabic in their schools, we now see two divergent paths despite both societies being quite religious. One is importing a non-native language for reasons related to an identity crisis and the other is protecting animals. Which one is healthier?
I would not put that stark of a difference though. Both regions are trying to ape the ‘best practices’ of a more Hindu/Muslim region. Dont think Karnataka has any history of cow-slaughter and all. Only regions which pushed cow slaughter in the first round around the 60s and 70s like MP, UP etc are the ones which had this attachment to cows and stuff.
…ape the ‘best practices’ of a more Hindu region..
Still peddling your nonsense, huh. In many ways, this is the quintessential “lout-style-thinking” that marxists employ to reduce social problems to monochrome. In reality though, Indian marxists have reduced the cow slaughter problem to a savarna obsession with “culture over economics”. At least they make a well rounded rhetorical argument. You, on the other hand, merely insinuate all the time with no cogent explanation. I guess this is the furthest you can exert.
Its alright. I perhaps present a more crude way, of what essentially are the ground realities of India. Perhaps a more sophisticated person (as you said Marxists ) would present a well rounded version.
Nothing much would change though. Both will result in the same end set.
Its crude, I agree. But the reality is only in your head! 🙂
principia@
Karnataka’s both cultivator castes Lingayats in northern part and Vokkaligas in southern part of the State are devotees of Shiva(linga). Nandi in the form of a Bull is also worshipped along with Shivalinga. That coupled with Lingayath emphasis on vegetarianism means that the population is generally supportive of a ban on cow slaughter.
Shiva + Bull worship is believed to have started during IVC times. The 12 Jyotirlingas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyotirlinga) are considered the holiest places for Shaivism apart from the many Kuldevatas temples (Khandoba, Jotiba, Veerbhadra etc) who are also considered incarnations of Shiva. 9 of the 12 Jyotirlingas are in peninsular India. I don’t think I am the first one to suggest a correlation between IVC shifted population(s) and Shiva(linga) worship. I am not familiar with Tamil/Dravidian politics but we may be mistaking anit-brahmanism with anti-hindu. One can oppose brahmin domination and still be Hindu. I am using Hindu as a broader term for anyone following the native religious traditions of India which includes a tolerance of each other. Some sub-groups want to claim themselves to be more hindu to claim leadership and attendant rent-seeking opportunities.
‘I am not familiar with Tamil/Dravidian politics but we may be mistaking anit-brahmanism with anti-hindu.”
Old trick from Dravidian/Commie playbook. Once the Brahmin is neutralized, the next target will be the second in line Hindu caste. So on and so forth. And this is coming from someone who is not even Brahmin.
Who would know better than us (OBCs) ? When we were voting against the BJP in the 90s for commies/socialist, we were lionized as the rearguard of Secularism. When we started voting for BJP, we now are demonized as foot soldiers of Hindu right.
Saurav, the non-brahmin experience may be sufficiently different in Karnataka in that a monastic framework is very robust and long-standing among lingayats and vokkaligas. Its not a situation where cutting off the head (brahmins), kills the beast, as it may be up north. Furthermore, this system may be, as far as we know, the very reason for the survival and low attrition from hinduism in the deccan, considering islamicate rule was sustained here for considerable time. Another thing, despite the reputation among some that the south in many ways is developmentally advanced, because of our language cocoon, our elites in some ways are not as rarified and deracinated as the lutyens set (i’m not sure “prison notebooks” has a kannada edition). Our socialists perhaps have not had the same contempt for tradition, and there is a genuine conservativism that manifests among the language protectionists. Basically our “Sadashivnagar” crowd doesn’t have disdain for our rural folk in the way south delhi does for its counterpart. These different mechanics lead me to think that the endgame for anti-brahmin feeling differs, and is more an assertion of localism (including devotional practices that brahmins don’t patronize)
I agree and disagree somewhat.
The Southern Islamicate rule dwarfs in comparison to Northern one. So not sure South’s lower attrition is really due to monastic framework or just plain luck. On the contrary the rise of communism and Dravidianism as anti-Hindu forces despite South not having non-Hindu rule for long makes me believe that had Southern India seen a longer Muslim rule the attrition away from Hinduism would have been higher than the North.
Also the OBCs monastic framework are present in North as well. Many of them systematic dismantled but many like Goraknath etc have lived on. Again a long Muslim rule could have had the same results in the south. Brahmins are incidental to the whole process, and cutting them wouldn’t mean much. The current resurgence Hindu right in the North is being driven by OBCs , while Brahmins during the 2000s would vote for Congress etc just like every other caste group.
But yes on the difference of Southern elite vis-v Northern one, i wholly agree. The Southern elite both the vernacular and English speaking are closer to underclass, which the Northern elite can only dream off.
I should have been more specific about muslim rule, refering to the south above the krishna-tungabhadra basin, where it started in 1300 and continued until the peshwai era, and up until independence in those nizami regions. but in support of your point, it seems like the feudal elite in the upper south were still mainly hindu over all those centuries. Would be interesting to dive deeper into whether institutional hinduism is more elaborated in some regions vs others. Another point, the lingayat mutts are highly decentralized, and there are countless small town syndicates. Whats the correlate in Rajasthan and MP I wonder, among people who I interact with from these regions, the opinions of swamis don’t factor into social discourse it my experience.
+1 on Girmit’s point, although it is more of a monastic framework coupled with hereditary priestly sub-caste. For e.g. Lingayats rely on in-house Swamis for all their ritual needs including birth, death and marriage. I am not sure what is the situation in TN, MH or Hindi belt states. I remember back in his 2008-13 term, BSY had started giving government grants to Schools/institutions run by “mutts” of different castes and sub-castes including some considered as SCs. In KA, there is/was an increasing trend of each caste following the established template of monastic framework + priestly class. I am hoping this will reduce the inter-caste angst in KA and hopefully replicated all over India. A lot of caste friction is caused by having to depend on “social betters”.
Tamil OBCs in diaspora seem to observe all the normal rituals like other Indians except that may focus more on using tamil language and resistant to learning Hindi. I believe it is driven more by a desire to maintain their distinct sub-identity.
this measure is more in response to the muslims behaviour in coastal and highlands (malenadu) karnataka, where there have been many cases of cow thefts. there is a bit of friction between hindus and muslims here on this count. also bjp has very deep roots here.
secondly, jds also wanted bjp’s support to hit back at congress and bjp took its support in the bargain.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/twitter-accounts-block-govt-notice-khalistan-sympathiser-pakistan-7179728/
This is the second time in just four days that the govt is demanding Twitter to take down various accounts. Twitter is staring them in their eyes and calling their bluff. If Modi doesn’t introduce legislation then he is displaying shocking weakness, essentially allowing a private neoliberal company in the US to lord over Indian discourse.
https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/sachin-tendulkars-cut-outs-smeared-with-black-oil-by-kerala-youth-congress-workers-over-unity-tweet-3396776.html
Recently India’s ‘God of Cricket’ tweeted some vanilla comments on how “India issues are internal” and its a sovereign country. Mallus of course couldn’t stand that.
Less Hindu area—> Less Indian. At least the India we know about. Whether that’s a good or a bad thing is upto each individual.
Razib – My posts on this thread have been held up for some reason.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-yoga-american-white-supremacy-michigan-state-university-shreena-gandhi-racism-professor-a8185206.html
Yoga=White supremacy
Cultural appropriation is largely about money and claiming historical prestige, aka increasing soft power, for one’s group. She is mad mostly white people directly profit off of American whites doing yoga. You have to think in a very tribalistic way to consistently come to the types of conclusions the crowd that always sees cultural appropriation in everything tends to come to. Does it exist? Sure. Is it as big of an issue as some of these academics make it out to be? Heck no.
They made an ad on the protests to be shown in Cali during the super-bowl
And unsurprisingly, the outro track has “Jatt” in it, lol
If you’re spending so much money, then the least you could’ve done is make it neat and unbiased
Nah, the cat is out of the bag. Might as well flaunt it.
Lmfao. The egos have peaked
Lol why make it unbiased? It was biased from the start. The whole procurement system biased, in terms who benefits from the current state of affairs. It makes sense the Jatt caste based rentier class that relies on government freebies to run their agricultural lands towards desertification on the backs of migrant and low caste labor, support this cause to protect their relatively higher incomes. It makes even more sense Khalistanis have latched on. This is their moment after decades to have even some sort of spotlight they can spin. They know, .movement wise, they bungled with the Air Canada hijacking, when it became quite clear what their central leadership involvement was. That was their last big moment as a movement. This issue is so easy for them. Their propaganda is strong. The Indian Right can learn a thing or two how to do Western appealing messaging from these people.
Honestly it is just as easy for the people at the protest to take Khalistani money and not support Khalistan as it is for Khalistanis to take ISI and CCP money and not support those illiberal entities. Granted, given the years of targeting killings of Hindus through Punjab in the 80s, the hardcore Jatt supremacism we even see here on any forum board, the entire fake encyclopedias like Jatwiki made online, I think the supremacism runs deep among the Khalistanis and really fuels their hate. The amount of anti bania just studd in Jatt media is incredible.
Buckle up folks, Bollywood and Discovery are now onto AIT vs OIT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU8TzHv9nW4
https://twitter.com/BajpayeeManoj/status/1358723393307226115
Elite warriors of copper age, The secrets of Sinuali
Don’t understand the desperate need people have for some sort of hindu nationalism or unity. What for? To combat those oh so terrifying mussies? Give me a break. There’s never been any kind of Hindu unity, just different groups of people with their own caste/family/region-specific rituals and traditions. This is the kind of ‘traditionalism’ that’s needed- one that can complement scientific and social progress; not the regressive, neo-fascist ideology that’s promoted by the right and tacitly supported by moderates.
Of course, there are things that need to be changed, namely how much sway caste holds over socioeconomic and political outcomes, but this wish for some unification of all the hindus in the world is little more than aping the abrahamic understanding of the world and history, and even they, after centuries, haven’t been able to figure it out.
If India started an extermination campaign either within its borders or against bordering regions (Kashmir, Pak), just think about the legacy that kind of act will leave behind. Hindus are not the biggest victims of history (not even close), and yet they’ve stumbled into the status of oppressor without having ‘earned’ it. If they acted on this unearned status as tyrant, how would India not become a laughing stock in the annals of history? Acts of evil with none of the ‘benefits’ like science, tech, art, philosophy, etc. No one would want to be associated with hinduism any longer and it would just get absorbed into abrahamic faiths who would claim it as their own (the way white nationalists try to claim the Vedas as products of ‘white’ aryans).
Instead of setting up an alternative to the West and China, hindus just want to show that they have bigger dicks. No vision, no looking ahead, just a fixation on stale grievances.
And think about the disapora. We’re minorities everywhere else in the world; think about how humiliating it would be, having to explain to everyone else how we’re good hindus, not nutjobs like the genocidal maniacs ‘back home’. There goes your pan-hindu unity.
Embarrasseddiaspora your post also embarrassed us by being fact and logic free. Hope the diaspora can produce more independent and intelligent thinkers. You can secede from India or Hindus – we will bear the huge(:-)) loss
You seem to be more worried about your feelings when civilisations are literally clashing. Bhandhu these are civilisation issues.
Do not worry about India, it will survive and thrive.
If Muslims showed even half the guilt and remorse that you did, they’d all have left Islam already : )
No vision, no looking ahead
You sure sound like a policy expert.
just a fixation on stale grievances
How is worrying about everyday incidents involving Muslims killing (over religion)/ forcefully converting Hindus a “stale grievance”?
Just to be clear, nobody here condones Hindus killing Muslims either.
The difference is that the a Hindu killing a Muslim gets way more coverage than the other way around. That’s the annoying and counter-intuitive part. You think it’s possible to build a better society by simply bashing one group’s bigotry, while barely even acknowledging what another religion does? Can’t clap with one hand.
Bash bigots from all religions, why the bias, what good do people think they’re gonna achieve by not condemning assholes from one part of the society? And not being honest also invites more anger.
If you care a lot about what others (I guess westerners, to be exact) think about you, then do what you feel is the best for you. Stop misrepresenting others by calling their grievances “stale” or casually throwing around words like “genocidal maniac”.
//If Muslims showed even half the guilt and remorse that you did, they’d all have left Islam already : )//
This is just another version of ”white man bad bad” that a lot of woke/commies keep harping about.
It’s amusing to see the similarities between Hindunats and Woke/commies
Vedas were produced by Sanskrit speakers. Where Sanskrit originated and who are/were its native speakers? What does it mean Rg and Veda? What does it mean ‘white nationalists’? Which nation?
*The amount of just anti-bania stuff in Jatt media is incredible. The Modi-Shah stuff has an interesting caste flavor to it as well I think. It amounts to the irrational suspicion of an anti semitism towards Jews in the American Industrial Age. No one is saying there are progroms, but there is certainly open bias that in aggregate can even be argued as hatred against Bania origin people.
I always love the disclaimers of “Sikhism is anti-caste.” Yes it is in theory. But in practice, some of the most hardcore casteists, who say stuff about “Chamars, churas, brahmins, banias, etc.” that would make most people’s skin crawl along with the blatant caste based riots to secure disproportionate government benefits, are evidence to all about the retained casteist attitudes. The Indian Constitution is also anti-caste. It doesn’t mean people listen.
https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/ld2294/farm_bills_2020_protests/
Incredible. There is actual dissent and constructive debate on the leftist forum. The mods have been sleeping.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/amarinder-singh-punjab-govt-farm-laws-agriculture-reforms-7180435/lite/
Punjab Govt expert panel urged reforms akin to farm laws but Captain rejected
https://internetshutdowns.in/
Anyone know how exactly these internet shutdowns are implemented? Is it purely central govt. calling the shots, or are state govts. involved too?
Surprised to see Rajasthan at #2
https://aeon.co/ideas/the-right-to-vote-should-be-restricted-to-those-with-knowledge
The right to vote should be restricted to those with knowledge
https://theprint.in/judiciary/how-do-sc-ngt-judgments-impact-the-economy-niti-aayog-commissions-study-to-find-out/601351/?amp
How do SC, NGT judgments impact the economy? NITI Aayog commissions study to find out
NM already posted the trailer link to the upcoming Sinauli show on Discovery Plus.
One of the archaeologists is stating on the trailer – Sinauli is the most important discovery of the 21st century so far. It is going to overturn a lot of treasured theories in the West.
There are feverish attempts to appropriate or spin Sinauli by Western Indologists. But the Indian archaeological establishment is standing firm. I wrote a detailed dissection of Parpola’s contorted attempt to classify them as early Aryans.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BrownPundits/comments/kzswco/a_western_indologist_puts_the_cart_before_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
So far the Indian archaeological record was silent on the AIT/AMT question. This allowed western Indologists to get away with the argumentum ex silentio escape card. But now Sinauli is falsifying AIT/AMT in every way possible – the date, the location and the cultural landscape.
There are three pieces of archaeological evidence –
1. The Chariot burial – This is quite the star of the show. Enough has been said on this.
2. Rice in funerary jars @ the chariot burial – This blows up many chestnuts in western Indology. If we all agree with the contention that rice is not found in the Rgveda but only in the Yajur, then we start pushing the dates for Rgveda into the 3rd millennium.
3. Royal burials – A large hoard of weapons and gold ornaments point to a necropolis for the ruling class. This is very much in contrast to Harappan burials.
Early attempts at synchronicity of the textual tradition with the archaeological data shows a close match with burial rites mentioned in the Shatapatha Brahmana.
Ugra, I thought the trailer was presenting a OIT favorable view?
Regardless , it WILL present a native-Indian view. Of how we were the inventor of most things. I dont think ,considering the political climate, anyone would take a chance of doing otherwise.
@NM
Yes, you can say that – a OIT favorable view. More precisely it is presenting the view of the Indian archaeological establishment. The fact that they are doing this is unprecedented. That was what I was referring to….
The Sinauli team’s findings has been swept under the carpet by the Indian historical establishment – it is just astounding. The earliest chariot burial this far in the East has been from China in 1100 BC (Yin dynasty). This one pushes the record back by a full 800 years.
And of course we have Indologists to hand who are just ready with their “ox-cart” sticker. There was no horse in the grave, so it cannot be a chariot. But there was no ox in the grave either. Therefore it must be a motorized cart or perhaps the dead man pulled it himself – the earliest rickshawallah in antiquity!
motorized cart = Aryan Tesla
Many years ago, in Liverppol Indology list discussions , referring to arya on chariots as ‘panzers’ created a storm in the tea cup. It all the heated discussions that followed it was not clear who first used the expression and the blame was laid on many people and the term was repudiated completely. Ghosts of nazis easily falls in indological discussions
=> Tesla = Ar1ayan