The usual. I’m rather liberal for open threads, but let’s try to diminish the vitriol.
Also, I am appreciating the links some of you are putting out there. I’m actually learning a lot.
The usual. I’m rather liberal for open threads, but let’s try to diminish the vitriol.
Also, I am appreciating the links some of you are putting out there. I’m actually learning a lot.
Given the extra-judicial sentencing of Vikas Dubey and whats ailing our institutes in India and whether India can be a developed country. Here is Iyer Mitra:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=outMIhNxFSA
The theme from his talk:
1. India lacks the strategic independence it desires
2. There is a web of issues (malnutrition, low spend on education, low skills, corrupt institutes and lower GDP)
3. Cant bring out people out of poverty without massive industrialisation, but we are already late to being a mass manufacturing power
3. Sees no way out of the web of issues
“Aatmanirbhar Bharat” is a joke.
We have a HUGE lack of skilled labour.
Take for example this article from 2019: India now imports skilled labour for infra projects
“contractors of infrastructure projects are now deploying welding and cutting operators from China, Russia and East European countries due to a huge shortage of domestic skilled welding workforce.”
“The Indian Institute of Welding has estimated a short supply of 1.2 million welding professionals including welders, cutters, fitters, equipment operators besides engineers and inspectors.”
It’s hilarious that we are importing workers from countries that have 4-5x our GDP/capita.
Each of those 1.2 million guys is potentially a lower middle class person who is right now near poverty.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/india-now-imports-skilled-labour-for-infra-projects/article29657364.ece
“The Indian Institute of Welding has estimated a short supply of 1.2 million welding professionals including welders, cutters, fitters, equipment operators besides engineers and inspectors.”
There are other factors that affect this. A few years back there was a case in south India where lower-middle class teenagers ended up in programming cram schools even though the initial salary for a code monkey is significantly lower than that of a handyman (electrician, plumber, mechanic etc.). Now the question may be why so?
When asked these boys said that the perception of blue-collar or white-collar played a large role in the way they were treated by society. For example, many families in Indian homes would get uppity if they perceive someone from a significantly lower class sitting on the expensive furniture in their house. Whereas, if they’re perceived as white-collar then that automatically means they have notable upward mobility because their work ‘requires brains’ even if the reality may be otherwise.
It affects arranged marriages too, any guy working a white-collar job even if it pays less gets a few points above what a blue-collar person gets when it comes to compatibility scrutiny in the small town pecking order.
If there’s more respect shown to the working classes by the middle class in India, then things may gradually change. Until then, there will continue to be a dearth of talent in required professions seen as undesirable by upwardly mobile people due to societal reasons.
“A few years back there was a case in south India where lower-middle class teenagers ended up in programming cram schools even though the initial salary for a code monkey is significantly lower than that of a handyman (electrician, plumber, mechanic etc.)”
One of my friends works with the Tamil Nadu government and this has been his opinion as well.
TN government has now started a programme in partnership with private companies like TVS to provide training to individuals who want to learn iron-smithing, gold-smithing etc.
Most of the labour in TN is from outside the state, though.
One reason for the reluctance to get into blue-collar work as opposed to programming work might be the lack of a well defined career path.
Hagia Sophia has been turned into a mosque. And Pakistanis worldwide rejoice.
I feel bad for Greeks and Armenians. Fuck turks.
You don’t feel for Serbs? Both, Constantine, who founded Constantinople and Justinian, who built Hagia Sophia, were Serbs.
I commiserate with the Serbs my friend. You have my allegiance.
There was no such thing as a Serb back then. They were Illyrians. Constantine was also half Greek, and Justinian’s birthplace is today in FYROM not Serbia.
He posts things like this across everything by Razib. He has claimed the Indo-Aryans were an ancient Serbian tribe, that the Vinca culture was Serbia. Think of Ancient Aliens, but replace the aliens with Serbs, and you get most of Milan’s posts.
Serbs always existed. They are the chosen people of God.
Aryan Serbs Matter.
Живела Србија!
@StraightGay/Milan (probably the same)
Trolling on the anniversary of the Srebenica Massacre is beyond bad taste. Enough with the silliness, and stop with the childish nonsense.
“@StraightGay/Milan (probably the same)”
By the one in whose hand is my soul, I am not civilized enough to be an Aryan, let alone Serb.
However, it doesn’t change the fact that Serbia is the centre of the universe which pseudo-scientists have always tried to disprove.
No they weren’t. The Serbs, a slavic people, did not exist in that region prior to the migrations of late antiquity, and neither Justinian or Constantine would have even understood that word.
Your bizarre and pseudo-scientific “Serbs” invented everything posts are getting more than irritating.
Add other Balkan people and Russians.
Don’t forget the Assyrians. At least the Greeks and Armenians have a country they can call their own. Turks absolutely fucked the Assyrians and I think the community will just go extinct within this century.
Yea feel bad for them as well. Once again fuck Turks. All they’ve really done is ethnically replace people. So happy it didn’t happen in South Asia.
I don’t care too much about this issue, but seems like this is unnecessary.
I mean the blue masjid right across the street is so beautiful and historic, and there is no religious significance in Islam for this site, what is the point of using this particular site to pray aside from showing pride and a sense superiority stemming from conquest.
Wonder if they would be open to at least sharing the space with christians to meekly conduct some prayer on some holy days?
That might be a nice gesture of goodwill. Not sure if that would be allowed under Islamic law.
“there is no religious significance in Islam for this site, what is the point of using this particular site to pray aside from showing pride and a sense superiority stemming from conquest.”
That’s the same logic that applies to the mosque in Varanasi for example.
Which one?
The monstrosity Gyanvapi mosque is the semi demolished Kashi Vishwanath turned to a mosque.
The other scar that will forever remind us of the benevolence of wali-e-hind Alamgir Aurangzeb that is Alamgiri is also built on and using the demolished ruins of Beni Madhav temple.
Beni Madhav temple might not have been a top tier temple but Kashi Vishwanath most certainly was.
Damn. I only knew of Gyanvapi.
I think this action is more about undoing Kamal Ataturk’s secularism than anything else. Just as Modi wants to undo everything Pandit Nehru has done Erdogan wants to undo Ataturk’s secularism.
The reporting suggests that the only thing that will change is that people will be able to offer namaaz. No changes will be made to the interior or exterior of the site and tourists will continue to visit. It’s not like Babri where a mob destroyed the mosque. Hagia Sophia remains standing.
And those comparing this to Al-Aqsa being made into a synagogue are missing the very important point that East Jerusalem is Occupied Palestinian Territory while Istanbul is sovereign Turkish territory. This is a Turkish internal matter.
NYT – The leading paper of American liberals and globalists has published several related program articles. Some were written in the editorial office, and some are from the pens of cult leftists and progressives – economists, activists and businessmen
* The main points of the project “America as we need it” are: to forgive all debts to blacks, including debts on consumer loans; black people exempt from paying for all banking services; provide zero-interest mortgages to blacks; provide zero-interest loans to black business owners; significantly increase the inheritance tax (it is clear in advance that whites and `white property` will be hit)
* Added to this is a reform of the electoral system that will – if enacted – allow the American Liberal Democrats to rule the United States forever.
What’s the big deal with the Hagia Sofia being turned into a mosque again? As long as they don’t destroy the Christian architecture and paintings it’s not really a big deal. In fact it maybe in the buildings best interest to be a mosque since extremists won’t ever target it. I’m into history and the last thing I want is for any historical architecture or structure to be destroyed. The demolition of the Bamiyan Buddha’s in Afghanistan in 2001, now that was messed up and we may not get anything made like that ever again. In comparison the Hagia Sofia is a non issue.
I would have no issue too if the Dome of the Rock is turned into a Synagogue or the Great Mosque of Mecca is turned into the Great Cathedral of Mecca. As long as they don’t destroy the Islamic architecture that is. That’s where I draw the line.
The Dome of the Rock would never become a synagogue. It would probably be destroyed first and then a synagogue would be built on top of it as per the rebuilding of the Second Temple of Jerusalem. Same with the Kaaba if a Church was made. Be grateful that the Hagia Sofia was not demolished when the Turks conquered Constantinople.
“Be grateful”
Muslims always end up showing up their true colors when talking to dhimmis
You should get off your high horse. Grateful as in be grateful a 15th century conqueror didn’t do what many other conquerors did in the past. Which is destroy mosques, churches and synagogues. Enough with this victim complex.
And learn what the term dhimmi means before using it randomly.
Anyways I’m done with the Hagia Sofia topic.
Its not worth your energy man.
But seriously, Hagia Sophia is the spiritual capital of millions of Orthodox Christians worlwide. Not sure the equivalent for Sunni but it is like Karbala of Shia. The fact that it was a museum until now was a humiliating compromise. Now even that is gone. I won’t be surprised if there are retaliations from some Russian nationalist or Byzantiboos worldwide.
Europeans won’t do anything about it. Russians maybe.
Russians are based.
\In fact it maybe in the buildings best interest to be a mosque since extremists won’t ever target it\
It will happen in stages. When there is more fundamentalism in Turkish society, Ergogon will slowly tighten the screws. Suddenly a bunch of AQ/ISIS guys may blow themselves up in Hagia Sophia to remove the “stain of kuffar” and cleanse Turkish society of apostasy. . Erdogon’s action is only the first step
Question for Razib. My “caste” is Syed, specifically Bihari Syed. I have been researching my family tree and ancestry using some basic tests like ancestry.com and 23 and me and GED match. In terms of y haplogroups as per 23 and me, the males of my Bihari Syed caste have varying types of y haplogroups such as R1a, R2, H, L, I, J1, J2 with myself belonging to J-CTS5368 (J1a). Is the varying y haplogroups something that is usual within other caste groups in South Asia?
As well, when inputting my raw data into GED match, I seem to be closest to Bihari and UP Syeds with the next closest groups being UP, Bengali and Bihari Brahmins. Would that mean it is safe to say that a majority of my ancestry is Brahmin?
The Syed caste is something that was established during the Delhi Sultanate and Mughal rules with Syeds not being a caste in the Middle East but a title for descendants of prophet Muhammed. But it seems to have evolved into a caste in South Asia in those times. Is it possible Brahmins converted to Islam and became Syeds and or mixed with Middle Eastern Syeds who came to South Asia and eventually these Syeds practiced endogamy?
I would appreciate your feedback.
Is the varying y haplogroups something that is usual within other caste groups in South Asia?
yes. though sometimes the frequency can be really skewed. eg bengali brahmins are 75% r1a. but kayastha gotras in w. bengal are all over the place. some are even east asian.
Is it possible Brahmins converted to Islam and became Syeds and or mixed with Middle Eastern Syeds who came to South Asia and eventually these Syeds practiced endogamy?
some syeds do have the ‘correct’ Y chromosome. but on the whole, I think most were upper caste converts, disproportionately brahmin.
Thank you for the feedback!
i have your genotype and another guy who is a patna syed. i should run them right now with my new framework.
What exactly is this new framework?
I think there is a wider shift in world politics to lock in their gains, or at least go back to their original maximilist positions. Of course Hagia Sophia being a museum in the first place was not really needed, and there was a possibility that it remained a mosque, post 1931. Similarly the Chinese post 1962 did not need to recede from their claim lines post 1962 war. The US need not really need to help Europe post WW2 with marshall plan/NATO. All this were initiative which actually helped the host countries as well.
But the way the world is moving, there is this growing view that we need to go back what we had “given” as a sign of good faith or that we “gave” far too much. Perhaps i am overthinking it.
I’ve been to Hagia Sophia. It was really beautiful to see the calligraphic names of the Prophet and Imam Ali in the same space with the Savior and the Virgin. In my opinion, it should have remained a museum. However, it is Turkish sovereign territory and their right to do as they wish.
This is all part of Erdogan trying to undo Kemalism and create a neo-Ottoman Empire. He’s just the Turkish version of your own Hindu Hriday Samrat.
I mean look we can all be petty and argue it ad nauseam that Babri was on India’s Sovereign territory and what Indians did to the mosque was no one else business. I would argue that at the point where Modi/Erdogan are in terms of power they dont really need all this construction of Babri-Ram temple or Sophia conversion to mosque.
But making a larger point, we are moving away from the post WW2 consensus, back to a proto Great game era. Who knows what happens when the next corona virus hits. This time around at least the world was interconnected-interdependent enough. Next time a Pandemic hits , it could lead to a race b/w US vs Europe vs China to find a vaccine and then try to use it as leverage to gain concession some other front.
Babri was literally destroyed by a Hindu extremist mob. There are no changes being made to the interior or exterior of Hagia Sophia. Indians in particular have no business lecturing Turks.
If we’re going to have more pandemics, America might as well throw in the towel now, no point racing for a vaccine. This country has been derping from start to finish…we have a populace that wants to binge-drink and grope at bars, a media obsessed with political polarization rather than actually conveying information, a sclerotic legal-bureaucratic regime which dramatically retarded the production of masks and tests…and in our hospitals, we have shortages of medications and even pulse oximeters (as I found out the hard way.)
It’s a fool’s game to guess when the next pandemic will come around. But if it comes relatively recently…then America’s done. The Chinese system proved itself far superior this time around, and will do so again.
Entire galaxy is claimed by China. They held as much as they could have held. In the best of circumstances they might have managed to hold onto Tawang ftill winter came but India would have prevailed in the East. Now they are claiming non-contiguous parts of Bhutan. Chinese have been in the statecraft business for a very long time, they know people forget stuff with time, they will continue doing their thing no matter what we say or do. We should do our thing. Theirs is the brand of diplomacy that colonial empires employed. They want to perpetually keep us engaged, good! we should perpetually keep them engaged. They gave Pakistan nuclear bombs and missiles, good! we will give nuclear bombs and missiles to everyone from Taiwan to Vietnam to Indonesia. If they impinge our interests we should impinge their interests.
Agree especially about US not being acknowledged enough. Pakistan gulped 30+ Billion USD over a decade and didn’t even say thank you! When America will recede people who call them war-mongers currently will beg them to intervene.
Recent article on the print on breaking up Uttar Pradesh: https://theprint.in/national-interest/uttar-pradesh-is-indias-broken-heartland-break-it-into-4-or-5-states/458552/
I brought this up in a comment a couple of weeks back:
https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/05/07/open-thread-04-07-2020-brown-pundits/#comment-60920
It looks like a state devolution act for UP would be a necessity for things to improve in any significant way.
UP’s GDP grew at a CAGR of 10.59% over the past 10 years. Thats a good sustainable movement.
https://www.ibef.org/states/uttar-pradesh-presentation
Breaking it up will create newer political dispensations and uncertainty. Do not underestimate political stability, it is the first requirement for growth.
I feel mostly people from outside UP are more interested in breaking that state. There is hardly any sub regional movement AKA Telangana to break away from the state. States are not broken for “administrative efficiency” but on emotions/demand. There is no conclusive proof that the states which broke away did better. We have number of examples to suffice both conditions. And UP might become worse off with smaller states. Who would take the blame then?
Also any forceful breakup especially if seen 2 done by outsiders will create another revanchist movement which will make the state push back and become even more tight knit. Mumbai was a cosmopolitan city but even the chance of it becoming a union territory was enough for the rise of Marathi revanchism. You will see UP revanchism in the more prosperous Western UP then.
As a guy from Satna and a Bagheli language supremacist, I approve of the creation of a new state out of Baghelkhand. MP governments have long neglected the region, despite the BJP winning an MP from here since 1977 consistently.
There are enough demands of creation too, though not including any UP districts.
Recently I joined an online community (for a creative media course) that’s open to everyone but seems to be 95% women.
Honestly the least toxic most welcoming community I have been a part of online, couldn’t help but contrast it with the Jaat wars that took place on this forum which is 95% male.
With all this brinkmanship in world politics I am wondering if this would apply to politics. Guys are really good at my team vs your team type stuff, that has perhaps been historically necessary. But it seems technology and falling population numbers may remove basic resource scarcity for our species in the future.
And going forward we need more collaborative solutions, to solve global issues that face humanity beyond just simple jockeying for resources between teams to survive and reproduce.
A really intelligent guy I know once suggested to me once that he supported women taking over all global leadership positions for a couple of decades.
I was initially reflexively against the idea at the time, but now I am starting to come around to it.
They would have a chip on their shoulders and this added incentive to work hard, and could they really be that much worse than our current crop of world leaders?
I welcome many more women in top positions of the society. OTOH I don’t think it will change anything much on the ground.
maybe the worst case and most likely scenario is as follows:
1. on the ground status quo
2. some powerful men loosing out out on more power
3. women getting some representation they have missed out on since the neolithic started, and little girls get role models etc.
Best case scenario is women, have a desire to prove themselves, and turn out to be transformative to the culture of global leadership somehow and help solve issues that require global cooperation like climate change as their legacy.
I agree the best case is unlikely, but in poker terms seems like a ‘freeroll’.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1568227/biden-as-president-will-raise-kashmir-issue-with-india-says-his-adviser
They’re welcome to say what they like…at this point, they’re closing the barn door after the horse has bolted, and if they want to pursue a hawkish position against China…they’ll need all the help they can get tbh.
Sorry (American) Hindutvadi fascist, President Biden will not buy your “atoot ang” crap. Better make sure your fascist Trump wins in November (not likely).
There will be some low key clucking at Modi for form’s sake which both sides will have forgotten in three months. India is too big not to have on your side and no one cares about Kashmir apart from Pakistani Punjabis. Putin will get it well and hard in the shorts, he needs to be reminded he only runs Snow Nigeria.
traditionally the dems were the proindia party. no residual from that? also, lots of indian American (immigrants) are democrats who are promodi
“No one cares about Kashmir except for Pakistani Punjabis”–this is a false statement. Kashmiri Muslims care very much.
The Democratic Party is against the August 5 annexation of the Disputed Territory into India Proper. They are also against CAA and NRC.
Hindutvadis need Trump to win but (luckily) that is most probably not going to happen.
“traditionally the dems were the proindia party. ”
In India there is a view that Republicans are better for India. They are seen as less “noisy” while Democrats are seen more pro Pakistan ( pro Kashmir, HR) .
In Pakistan again Republican preferred by military, Afghan Jihad/BD war etc under Republican admin. While democrats are seen as pro India (Clinton-Kargil)
What does this have to do with what I said?
Dumb geopolitical move honestly. US could afford to play the neutral policeman role in the in the past but now it’s becoming increasingly irrelevant. Pretty much everyone wanted to be on the good graces of the US. The public also used to believe in America leading the democratic world or whatever. Now no one believes in the American pretenses. There are other big boys around. It needs to a pick a side and just stick with it otherwise you lose both sides.
I think Biden just keeps on saying whatever each constituency needs to here. Some days back he was saying some woke shit.
“There are other big boys around. It needs to a pick a side and just stick with it otherwise you lose both sides.”
The point is who will win this war though. As HM said we can clearly see the merits of the Chinese system.Not ideal but effective to certain extent. Right now both sides, seem to bring certain strength to the bear. The US still in the foremost power, and allying with it still bring clear benefits. While China the insurgent seems the bet for the future. At least the more coherent power here.
This remark was made by Biden’s foreign policy advisor, Antony Blinken at the Hudson Institute.
The point is that Democrats do not accept the August 5 annexation of the DISPUTED TERRITORY into India Proper. Neither would President Biden accept CAA. Sorry Hindutvadis.
Well we will see, won’t we. He is establishment candidate.
He will make the similar noises Obama would, about CAA,Kashmir, Human rights etc. India can live with it. On policy level there will hardly any change. The Indo-US alignment is far too strong for liberals of either country to put a spanner in the works. It might sound unfortunate , but this is how it will play out
On Twitter, it is fun to see Hindutva compatriots commiserating with Turkish secularists and Indian secularists siding with the Islamists.
Pakistanis, on a high from wanking to Esra Bilgic’s on-screen aura, ran into some threads with Babri and Paki-Chini Bhai Bhai sentiments. Then some HKérs jumped in and the whole thread is just sliding into dog’s vomit.
New short story: “How to Date a Hindu Fundamentalist” (haven’t read it yet but just the title will probably trigger the Hindutvadis on this site)
https://bostonreview.net/arts-society/aruni-kashyap-how-date-hindu-fundamentalist
“New short story”
I started reading that and couldn’t go past the first few paragraphs. Skimmed the rest of the article.
It’s hilarious. Feels like a caricature of a short story.
Seems these literary fora will publish any tripe as long as it is woke.
It’s actually a really good story. The ending is surprising. But of course Hindutvadis won’t like it because you all are not depicted in a flattering manner.
“But of course Hindutvadis won’t like it because you all are not depicted in a flattering manner.”
Lol. Calling me a ‘Hindutvadi’ for rhetorical purposes is fine and I let it pass. But please don’t use that as an excuse for your terrible literary taste.
(In any case, you do not know my politics IRL. I could very well be one of you.)
From your comments on this blog, it is quite easy to gage your politics. You often complain about your dating experiences with “woke” women. If I remember correctly you told an anxious girl to read the “Gita”, which she found incredibly offensive. And you have used the word “Islamist” to describe me in the past, so no you are not an Indian left-liberal. Don’t pretend now.
Literary taste is subjective so your thinking mine is “terrible” is neither here nor there. In any case, I’m the one who actually has a degree in English Literature.
Do you think anyone who is not a fan of performative woke-ism is a kuffar?
I don’t know why you feel the need to deploy theological Islamic terminology like “kuffar”–certainly not something a secular left-liberal would do.
The point is you have a long record on this forum which allows one to sensibly guess that you are nowhere near the left of the political spectrum.
Niceties aside what hard stuff exactly does the US really help India with?
1) Tactical (obsolete b-rung stuff for Americans) weapons that India pays with hard cash and market rate.
2) Civilian nuclear deal: never understood the need for it. Again paid for in hard cash. Anyways we will not be building enough reactors and solar >> nuclear.
3) Trade: well if we couldn’t stop Chinese trade even after mutual butchering what could the US do to stop us?
4) Noise in US Senate/Congress/UN: I suppose it is time for Uma Bharati, Meneka Gandhi and Mayawati to hold a race relations in the US hearing and issue random statements that Americans can smirk and disrespectfully dismiss.
5) Visas: Indian middle class(~10 LPA) will find a way. There is immense appetite for good education in Indians. These people will always find a way. Job losses will be tragic for individuals but not for the Indian state. Of course with great action comes great reaction.
6) Newspaper/bad-press/propoganda-BS: No one really cares in India. Doesn’t really count as hard power.
US is a good perhaps even great friend to have. But it turning into a bitching acquaintance is still OK. And if it means that Trump leaves it is still a win.
Can’t get too worked up over Hagia Sophia. It’s a magnificent piece of architecture, among the best in the world and too good not to use as a place of worship. Can’t think of a building I have been to which gives the same sense of religious awe. Would be a good move to allow Christians to worship there too.
Frankly i dont know why it was converted to a museum in the first place. Was there some movement for that?
It just gave a rallying cry to Islamists, with questionable benefits to Kemal-ism.
Ataturk was a staunch secularist and I don’t think he personally liked Islam at all. This is the man who changed the script of the Turkish language from Arabic to Roman. Also, the man who abolished the Caliphate. Finally, Kemalism is what outlawed the wearing of hijabs. He wanted Turkey to be a modern Western European state and mosques weren’t really a part of that model.
There is now a pushback to that. Again, the parellel is with Pandit Nehru who wanted to modernize India and the Hindutva Regime which wants to go back to a mythical golden age.
Ataturk was a staunch secularist and I don’t think he personally liked Islam at all. This is the man who changed the script of the Turkish language from Arabic to Roman.
most biographers state he was personally an atheist.
the switching fo the script was a conscious attempt to destroy the historical continuity of the turks with their ottoman past. modern turks can’t read ottoman documents.
It is stunning. And to be honest it has a quality to it that the blue mosque (itself quite a beauty) just doesn’t even come close to.
Amazing what the Byzantines were capable of building in the sixth century. Romans(Eastern and Western) really killed the competition in architecture. The only extant Indian building of the period I could compare it with is the Mahabodhi temple (both 55m tall). God bless Wali-e-Hind Aurangzeb Alamgir and Ghazi Ghaznavi for not destroying it.
The first time I was told that the Roman Colosseum and Pantheon are about 2 millennia old, I was blown away. It is surprising (and tbh quite telling) that despite such tall claims in Hindu books nothing quite as spectacular as the terracotta army or the Pyramids has ever been found in India.
My sister says that we have intangible cultural heritage (stuff like vedic chanting, yoga, Buddhist nonviolence, our music etc) and that ancient Indians produced works of philosophical/spiritual depth that was unmatched. After looking at how lame and full of obvious divisive, petty propoganda books like Quran and Old testament are, I do think there is something admirable about what our people were busy doing in those days. But erecting a few more big buildings like Hagia Sophia, making beautiful porcelain pots and building a big ass army to take on the invaders would have been very cool too.
@Bhimrao – What your sister says is true. The whole of S.E Asia, China and the Far East (Japan) still sing paeans to a single cultural/philosophical export from Bihar. All those Romans and Byzantines did not have a practical numeral system until our contribution.
But Indians also have low cultural literacy. So generally they gloss over the Sanchi Stupa, Brihadisvara temple, Ajanta caves or the Kallanai Dam. Nalanda Mahavihara (30 acres) was supposed to be magnificent until it was destroyed.
You need big strong states that can extract a lot of revenue to be able to build those buildings. India often didn’t have that.
That’s one reason why so many of our large monuments are Mughal.
We do have a lot of public works architecture like step wells, which show that our priority was the welfare of the people.
I find that admirable (or maybe just looking for consolation.)
We had strong big states and we had multi-decadal construction projects in the historical record. Ajanta Caves is something that will put Hagia Sophia in the shade in terms of planning, execution and siting. You can see it for yourself and make a conclusion (at least via Google Images)
I am not saying we didn’t have them. Just not as often as the west and that our priorities were often different.
The Kailash temple in Ellora is truly a stunning marvel. It doesn’t have the aesthetic elegance as some other monuments in some ways, but it is an insane feat.
What about the Angkor Wat and the other extremely impressive buildings built under the influence of Indians all around SE Asia? They rank as impressive as any of those buildings to me.
Colosseum and Pantheon predate Brihadiswara, Angkor Wat, Borobudur by about a thousand years, Parthenon by 1500, that is a long time so not quite comparable.
@Bhimrao –
The real significant thing is that Brihadisvara is still a temple. So are the Ajanta caves for Buddhist monks. Neither has the Pantheon or Hagia Sophia continue to function as it’s makers intended. Indians have the magic ingredient!! Romans and Byzantines should learn something from us.
You could have made your point without being derisive towards the word of God. But of course Islamophobia will out.
Quran is NOT the word of God.
Muslims believe that it is. You are entitled to not believe that but there is no need to gratuitously insult our scripture. It’s extremely insensitive.
Any human who believes that Quran is the word of God is stupid, moronic and completely credulous.
It’s a religious belief. It has nothing to do with facts.
But you’re from the group that believes in monkey gods which is in your own words probably more “moronic and stupid” than believing in divine revelation.
Monkey Gods? You dont understand Hinduism my friend. Go read the words of your pedo prophet and stop posting here, my “ethnically Indian” friend. You guys are the same people that lie to others about being “Indian” when confronted about your failing state and noxious religion and ideologies.
You have even admitted to being guilty of this yourself. Mercurial hypocrites like you should introspect before lecturing others on their beliefs and identity. Incorrigible fool.
APthk,
You are no one to tell me where I can and cannot comment. You do not own this blog. I have been commenting here far longer than you.
Insulting the Prophet of God is completely unacceptable. You just reveal your islamophobia. As far as monkey gods go, isn’t that factually what lord Hanuman is? Hindus are entitled to whatever they want to be believe but you can’t claim it’s less “irrational” than belief in divine revelation. Don’t insult Islam if you don’t want Hinduism to be insulted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_cultural_relics_forbidden_to_be_exhibited_abroad
It is impossible not to be swept off your feet especially with stuff from warring states period.
While examining the heritage of Europeans and others in their proximity, people make the mistake of treating the entire Western Hemisphere, especially the Western world, as a monolith, while only treating India as standalone country, devoid of its larger cultural and religious sphere of influence. When one examines the achievements of those cultures that were historically a part of “Greater India” it is easy to see that our heritage is no less impressive than theirs in any respect. And this is despite the fact that iconoclasts and tyrants have tried their best to destroy this ancient legacy by uprooting ideologies, razing monuments and beheading leaders and learned scholars. Our heritage has a resilience that is unmatched, for it has survived inordinate attempts of extinction.
The Western world has largely escaped the vagaries of constant invasions and iconoclasts, (because for large portions of history, Europe and most neighboring countries were at best backwaters, and held no interest to marauders and looters who were searching for untold wealth and prosperity as was found in South Asia) and as such preserves a greater portion of its cultural heritage. Even as recently as the British, foolish “archaeologists” were destroying priceless cultural artifacts, such as when they cut one of the musical pillars at Hampi to understand its acoustic properties. Of course, it didn’t amount to anything apart from forever damaging the structural stability of the monument. The gall that some people have in questioning the greatness of India’s tangible heritage is truly shameful. The “lack of evidence” doesn’t imply the evidence is lacking. Not only do we lack a complete historical record, we have yet to uncover as-yet undiscovered archaeological sites, and as aforementioned, we must consider our heritage as a part of a larger entity, which stretches far beyond the borders of current-day Hindustan for obvious reasons.
After looking at how lame and full of obvious divisive, petty propoganda books like Quran and Old testament are
the hewbrew bible in particular is a pretty great piece of prose literature for something that dates from the end of the bronze age/early iron age. the koran tbh is pretty derivative as prose (not really structured that way).
the ancient chinese knew some things about the romans. one of the primary aspects that was wonder inducing is that they build a lot of stuff in stone. in east asia it’s mostly wood, so very little ancient stuff (a buddhist temple from the 6th century is an exception).
@Razib
I do not have enough background and understanding to appreciate the quality of the literature itself.
Can you please recommend a few (budgeting no more than 40 hour read time for a moderate speed reader combined) good books that bring out the beauty/essence of HB/OT/NT/Bible and Quran. I had spent time on King James and found it unbearably bad to read and follow.
get alter’s translation of *genesis* and tell me what you think.
There is no stone in the Indo Gangetic plain. Bricks were used, and easily dismantled. I wonder if is there is any brick building surviving a 1000 years. Indian wonders before Muslim rule are where there was stone to build. Who can fail to be impressed by the Rameshwaram temple, or the caves at Ellora, so sadly defaced and destroyed as was Nalanda. The resplendent Martand temple in Kashmir, also in stone, stands sublime, though Sikander Butshikan went at it with hammer and crowbar. In Rajasthan the Jain temples in marble are a sight to behold.
What about possibility of undersea structures though? I know that Graham Hancock has gone Ancient Aliens way, but offshore structures near Lothal or Mahabalipuram do exist.
Also, Pyramids and Terracotta Army weren’t always known until archeological discoveries have been made. There could have been more things built and destroyed (going by myth and not only from Mahabharata but “tripurathaka” title to Shiva – destroyer of three cities) and we won’t even know that glory because nobody spends time looking for such things.
I support Hagia Sophia as a mosque. And Christians could always troll Turks by posting videos of services in Córdoba’s Mezquita-Catedral de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción 🙂
But wouldn’t that be trolling Berbers and Arabs rather than Turks
Everyone knows services have been conducted there in Cordoba since the reconquista. I sat through part of one during my last visit.
I know I shouldn’t but I always give out a juvenile chuckle when I hear ‘Hagia Sophia’. Sounds scatological in some Hindi dialects.
I hope I am not punished for this apostacy.
Almost any topic brings out the Islamophobes on BP. This week it happens to be Hagia Sophia. Next week it’ll be something else.
Can’t do without your weekly dose of Islamophobia (and anti-Pakistan rhetoric) can you? Hindutvadis are truly a pathetic group of people.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1568209
Pakistan Ulema Council announces support for construction of temple
Some time back someone posted on Indian Americans settling in red-state suburbs, or areas where their neighbours were not half as educated and affluent as they were. They made the point that Indian Americans either could not tell the difference, or would resolutely act as though these were genuinely elite places.
The result of COVID, in my experience, has been that many Indian Americans are forced to face that facts about where they live. Either their state governments, or their local neighbours, are very anti-science and anti-mask. I know several Desis that have now been open about this, and are looking to sell their tract mansions, and move to more educated and affluent areas.
I also hope this finally leads Indians to ditch the carnivalesque wedding culture that has got out of hand. If Indians really want to claim to be good with money, they could better use that wedding money for other purposes that can advance themselves and their interests.
My wife did her PhD in the US, one of her classmates was an Indian girl whose parents were successful doctors working and living in an island in the state of Georgia. The girl had a pretty tough childhood due to being exposed to a lot of racism and ended up flunking out due to mental health issues. Per my wife other Indian origin people she knew in the US would complain about racism in flyover states and the ones who had taken faculty positions in southern colleges had a terrible time. You wonder how many scarred children that created.
Thank you for sharing that. That was actually the topic that was being discussed, and it is clear that it creates a certain worldview.
Until now, many Desis have kept asserting that their McMansion in the Suburbs at a low price meant that they were being smart about where they lived. They never addressed the fact that they had the resources to move to better places, and that their neighbours were far less affluent (mostly relying on borrowing to finance housing and lifestyles) or far less educated than they were.
COVID, and the reactions to it, are forcing these Desis to face the music. This the the hidden cost of their cheap large house, and the reactions of both the elected authorities and their communities show that their neighbours are the voting base and participants for anti-science policy.
Really sad that they are the victims of such bigotry. Whenever I watch the Scripps National Spelling Bee, I always am impressed at the fact that Desis dominate the field. The National Geographic Bee, which is much more difficult, is also crowned with a pantheon of Desis. To think that they face dsicrimiation simply because of an accident of birth is really appalling.
(Before someone accuses me of being a hypocrite, let me remind you that I never claimed other South Asians were inferior in any way, simply that our community had a distinct apperance, and I am not going to talk about this topic again, as Razib has asked us not to continue this conversation)
i think it depends on personality. i grew up eastern oregon and faced racism, and was physically attacked.
but i know i’m superior. my siblings too. it’s just in our nature to believe this. so racism has had no impact on me.
otoh, i know other people who are of softer constitution who were traumatized by being the outgroup.
this makes sense. i’m pretty sure i have a personality where i’m OK with being the outgroup anywhere. i’m a conservative with a lot of academic friends, outgroup there too. but this is not typical probably.
“i grew up eastern oregon and faced racism, and was physically attacked.”
Why were you attacked? What were the circumstances around it?
I grew up in small city in the south. Similar to your account, being different and occasional hostility didn’t scar me. frankly, i wouldn’t have chosen a different childhood. A lot of adversaries became friends in adulthood. People and places change. I’ve lived in big blue state cities for college and adulthood, and the street level racism can be far worse there than where I grew up to be honest.
Depends. I never felt like I was in an outgroup when I went to the major American cities.
In my current, monoracial/monocultural place? I definitely do.
Being in medical academia as a sorta-Righty? Lol I feel like I’m a deep cover agent no lie.
“The girl had a pretty tough childhood due to being exposed to a lot of racism and ended up flunking out due to mental health issues.”
Ali Chaudhary, you hit a big chord here. as someone who seen these incidents unfolding in front of my own eyes, I can only vouch for authenticity of your observation.
i moved to US as a grown up, so never faced serious racism personally. but i had the misfortune of living in a lily white small american town a few years ago, and had to witness first hand the horrendous racism and bullying suffered by my daughter in her school.
the whole thing left such a bitter taste, that it left me questioning the whole rationale of migrating to US in the first place. i mean, indian professionals like me study and work hard to realize their american dream, little do they realize that their dream is really a nightmare to their kids.
i had an ordinary middle class indian childhood, but it was such a happy childhood. we didn’t have a lot of material comfort that my daughter has, but at least we had the comfort of knowing that we are loved, respected and required by the society. no wonder lot of indian kids who grow up in american tend to acquire socially misfit and awkward persona.
the indian parents that i know are all equally disenchanted with america, and consciously moving to thickly indian towns and neighborhoods. (like fremont in cal, edison in NJ etc). i know this is ghettoization, but it is a necessary evil. the first requirement to grow up as a healthy adult to have a happy childhood. if you can’t even give that to your kids, then what is the worth of all the dollars and material comforts you may acquire?
School bullying (irrespective of race) seems to be a pretty American cultural phenomenon. I wasn’t even aware of the it till I grew up and learnt of it via social media.
Even today, you’d hear an odd case here and there in the media but not much more.
We do have ‘ragging’ in colleges, though, which can be pretty brutal.
If anyone here has seen schooling in both India and US, they can probably explain the difference and put the experience in context.
Scorpion:
and had to witness first hand the horrendous racism and bullying suffered by my daughter in her school.
I’m curious: what kinds of behavior was your daughter subjected to? Racial slurs? Ridicule about culture/name/food? General ostracism? (I’m guessing since she was a girl that bullying wouldn’t have been physical.)
I only went to grad school in the country, and I couldn’t imagine the people I met and hung out with behaving in this manner. But clearly some must have, given these reports, so I wonder what changes from childhood to adulthood and how.
@Numinous, thankfully my daughter was never bullied physically. also, i dont think anyone made fun of her because of her brown skin. mostly it was kids giving her hard time just because she was different. usually it came down to nobody socializing with her during lunch time and play time. white kids would just make her feel left out.
at times it was making fun of the food she carried in her lunchbox. she would plead with her mom not to pack her indian food in lunchbox, and ask for “american” food items like pasta, sandwiches etc. all that just to fit in.
“I only went to grad school in the country, and I couldn’t imagine the people I met and hung out with behaving in this manner. But clearly some must have, given these reports, so I wonder what changes from childhood to adulthood and how.”
nothing changes. mean white kids grow up to be mean white men and women. the only thing that changes when they reach adulthood is that they become smart enough to keep their feelings hidden inside them. that’s what i guess they call “cultural sensitivity”.
i hold an american passport, yet i don’t call myself american. the feeling of belonging is just not there. for me the US passport is just an economic tool. a tool that i earned by many years of working hard and paying into the system. that’s all there is to it.
“Shall I not tell you about the Dajjal a story of which no prophet told his nation? The Dajjal is one-eyed and will bring with him what will resemble Hell and Paradise, and what he will call Paradise will be actually Hell; so I warn you (against him) as Noah warned his nation against him.”(Sahih Bukhari 3338)
😉
I haven’t spoken much for the past few weeks but I’m tired of reading comments from a certain someone.
Let’s get one thing straight- no other religion is as backward and regressive as Islam (not saying that other religions are perfect, each one has its own flaws, but Islam is by far the most flawed) whether you like it or not. Sick and tired of reading all those baseless statements.
Stop whining like a little kid and calling everyone an “Islamophobe” in every other comment just because they don’t respect Islam.
Jews, Buddhists/Shinto, Hindus and atheists/agnostics are all much smaller in number than Muslims (especially Jews), and yet, when you take a look at the Nobel Prize in the sciences, the Fields Medal, Abel Prizes, Lasker Awards, Turing Award, Breakthrough Prizes etc., you can see that they’ve all won more prizes than Muslims (some awards don’t even have any Muslim winners).
There are 49 countries in Asia, and 23 of them are Muslim-majority, and yet the 3 Asian space-powers are all non-Muslim majority ones (China, India and Japan)-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Asian_national_space_programs#Asian_space_powers
Singapore used to be a part of Malaysia not so long ago, and today, Buddhist-majority Singapore is way ahead of Muslim-majority Malaysia (Singapore has a much higher GDP per capita and HDI score)
2 of the best universities in Asia are from Singapore too-
https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2020
You can see a similar trend in people from the subcontinent-https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2018
British Indians have the second highest median hourly pay in GB, and Pakistanis are one of the bottom-most earners.
Same thing in the US-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income
Indian-Americans have the highest median household income, more than twice that of Pakistani-Americans.
And the Israelis you so love to cry about-
Israelis alone has won more Nobel Prizes in the sciences than your entire “Islamic Ummah” put together (I’m being generous by including Abdus Salam even though it doesn’t make a difference, and even though other Muslims would call him a non-Muslim), let alone their Arab neighbours.
What’s next? Gonna call me an Islamophobe for pointing out facts?
How many Nobel Prizes was Israel winning in the ninth century?
Why do you have to go several centuries back in time? Why can’t you speak about the present?
We both live in the 21st century, yes? What’s stopping you from talking about the present? Or do you always plan on hiding in the past?
The fact that you have to go way back to the 9th century alone shows that you’ve lost already.
Let me guess, you’re here to preach about the “Islamic golden age”? Where a lot of propagation of knowledge was being labelled as invention? There are tons of articles and sources that debunked several inventions Muslims claimed to come up with, I’m sure you’re smart enough to look them up (I don’t mind posting the sources here if you’re not).
Bertrand Russell sums it up best though-
“Arabic philosophy is not important as original thought. Men like Avicenna and Averroes are essentially commentators. Speaking generally, the views of the more scientific philosophers come from Aristotle and the Neoplatonists in logic and metaphysics, from Galen in medicine, from Greek and Indian sources in mathematics and astronomy, and among mystics religious philosophy has also an admixture of old Persian beliefs. Writers in Arabic showed some originality in mathematics and in chemistry; in the latter case, as an incidental result of alchemical researches. Mohammedan civilization in its great days was admirable in the arts and in many technical ways, but it showed no capacity for independent speculation in theoretical matters. Its importance, which must not be underrated, is as a transmitter.”
Hindus have a glorious heritage in the medical sciences, surgery, mathematics, logic, metaphysics, philosophy, astronomy, linguistics, theology, metallurgy and civic planning. Muslims have made no seminal contributions to these fields in comparison, with very, very few exceptions, and even these “Scientists” simply added their own observations onto a body of knowledge that was built up by non-Muslims. Anyone can read the actual historical record and come to this conclusion.
have*
And I don’t know if you’re the type of Muslim who actually believes the whole “Islam is a superior religion” or you merely defend Islam because you were born in a Muslim family, but whichever it is, I hope you can see why many people don’t respect Islam.
Just because someone on this blog doesn’t like Islam doesn’t automatically make them a Hindutvadi or Islamophobe or whatever else. Everyone has their own reasons and many of those reasons are very much valid.
Grow up.
It was a facetious comment to match yours.
You are comparing Indians and Pakistanis like they are Germans and Swedes. They are a collection of different castes, the castes lower down the totem pole in the sub-continent converted to Islam. Why is it a surprise that high IQ Brahmins in the West are performing well in cognitively demanding fields? Naipaul, Sen, Raman, Bannerji, Tagore, Raman and Chandrasekhar were all Brahmins. The only non-Brahmin Indian Nobel laureates are Khorana (Arora) and Mother Teresa.
The number of Nobel Prizes won by Dalits and OBCs Hindus who comprise 40 to 50% of the Indian population is zero. So please don’t crow about Indian\Hindu specialness and Pakistani inferiority. The relative performance was baked in by who their ancestors were.
What a foolish observation.
If we go by your logic, which implies that Brahmin ancestry in India lends itself to intellectual exceptionalism (a very tenuous claim for reasons I wont expand on here) then how do you explain the fact that Pakistanis are such lightweights in comparison? After all, they possess far more of the “West Eurasian” ancestry (on average) that makes Brahmins different from the OBCs and Dalits in the subcontinent. Also, many of those people that you claim are Brahmins, for all we know, are nothing more than Brahmins in title alone — even Razib touched on this in the past, when he posted a picture of Chandrashekhar as an ostensible “Brahmin” implying that caste dynamics aren’t as obvious as they seem. His autosomal profile could’ve easily been closer to that of the many hundreds of millions of OBCs that he resembles facially. Either way, your point is deeply flawed and incorrect.
no, iyers are iyers. they’re very distinct.
that being said, lots of tambrams look quite ‘dravidian’.
perhaps we need not go down the “what west eurasian %” direction on this thread again? it gets tiresome.
Absolutely, such discussions end up being redundant.
I also agree with your observation about some looking “Quite Dravidian” which ostensibly explains why Chandrasekhar himself, the genius that he was, still faced discriination in London when he was a scholar there. He believed Arthur Eddington’s public ridicule of his Chandrasekhar limit was partly racially motivated. His appearance certainly did him no favors, at least to those that are bigoted.
Is it really set in stone that high IQ people will prevail in academics. That way we are all screwed because Yellow people, Gora people and Yahoodis all have stunning IQs. And Brahmins are not producing enough babies themselves or in inter-caste/religion marriages to take all of us up. And obviously not many high IQ people are coming in to intermarry with us and settle here.
And if it is indeed a clear disadvantage, by how much is it possible to change the academic game in our (low IQ people’s) favor? i.e. more meat in diet, eradicating malnutrition, sanitisation, more intensive math-tutoring, inculcating-creativity. Indians already have the culture part figured out. I don’t think anyone in the world values academic achievement as much as Indians (especially Bengalis) do so we will never run out of people willing to put in the work.
Also, Is creativity even measured by IQ tests? I have seen pretty smart people (photographic memory, good at mathematical manipulation, abstraction etc) suck at research because they have no originality ,integrity… . Also tenacity is something that can be adopted as a cultural value. Keep repeating stories of how Indians never give up and perhaps in time they will believe and adopt it. Giving up meat (medieval equivalents of Chick-fil-A) must not have been easy or enjoyable but with enough propaganda people did make lasting life-style changes for their values (non-violence).
Indians seem to me a easily gullible people, tell them to worship XYZ god and they will do it unquestioningly, tell them gramodyog is good and they will start spinning charkha. Modi has shown how much people can be swung for good with his sanitation and subsidy-surrendering (where millions of people voluntarily gave up handouts) drive. So if we can somehow fake our way into making tenacity and creativity national values good things might come from it.
Again, I am not questioning IQ’s validity, it is ignorance to deny its predictive prowess nor am I being a racist (why would I?). I just want to know what how can a low-IQ society win at this game? How best can we make our moves? Our best (think Razib type people) are moving to the US in hordes what can we do to beat Yellow and Whites.
Once India’s malnutrition, endemic poverty and massive infrastructure problems are addressed, the Flynn effect should kick in and average IQs should rise considerably. At least, theoretically. Time will tell what actually transpires.
Our best (think Razib type people) are moving to the US in hordes what can we do to beat Yellow and Whites.
this is far less true in the past from talking to indian undergrads and grad students. don’t fuck this up.
also, the west/USA are looking a lot less good. i know NRIs who are quite successful in SV and such who are thinking of moving back.
Most IQ research is based on western (or at least non-Indian) datasets. Let’s not get too bogged down by it.
As Razib has pointed out, the genetic diversity in a single Indian village can be more than in Europe.
So how will the nation or civilization perform in aggregate is yet to be seen.
We have far far too many low hanging fruits before we start to worry about optimizing IQ.
As APthk said, let us focus on fixing basics like malnutrition and hygiene. And things like getting enough welders in India so that we can have a manufacturing eco-system.
These things matter in total intellectual output.
As an example, if you are doing research in solid state physics and your country doesn’t have the manufacturing eco-system to produce the equipment you need then you’ll have to import it at much cost.
This significantly increases cost of doing research. So you might have fewer people working on it resulting in less output.
This is apart from the significant R&D investment that large long established private companies themselves will do.
Dissing on Islam is alright but let’s first get our house in order.
@Razib
Somewhat old statistics:
https://www.thequint.com/news/world/indian-students-in-america-favourite-universities#:~:text=An%20estimated%2056.3%20percent%20of,at%20the%20Under%2DGraduate%20level.
The numbers for brain drain have been continuously increasing. As more and more Indian guys start getting jobs ~10 lakh INR per annum they will save for 4-5 years and move to the US. You should see how easy arranged marriage prospects become for a guy settled in the US. How drastically the (relative) monetary position and quality of life improves for someone who was barely getting anything done in India to someone who is killing it at Adobe, Intel, FB, Google. I have known literally hundreds who were making less than 5 Lakh working half-assedly at a shit kpmg, capegemini etc consultancy job or third rate coding-testing etc who have made the move and now work half-assedly (though still better than Gora people) in bay area. This deluge is unstoppable and every Indian I have talked to says these ‘I am thinking about moving back’ nonsense but hardly any ever do.
IQ is driven by a lot of societal factors. But I think the more intresting question is why have certain groups been able to build societies that foster high IQs while others have not? I don’t think Indians are dumber than other groups but other groups have built the societies that allow us to thrive. We haven’t built them ourselves.
I agree with Ali.
Nice to see that the only that went through Ali Choudhury’s head is “India-Pakistan” and all he inferred was that I’m apparently trying to establish some “Indian/Hindu” supremacy thing here.
Is it really that hard to understand that I’m speaking about the lack scientific temper in the Islamic world?
Your whole argument is hilarious. You’re trying to say “most of your achievements are due to Brahmins”, while I’m pointing out that “you barely even have any achievements”.
And you answered the whole Brahmins (Tamil Brahmins to be exact) outperforming others rant yourself.
“The relative performance was baked in by who their ancestors were.”
Brahmins had better educational and job opportunities in the not-so- distant past and you can see the results now. And the reason why it’s especially Tamils that do well is because there’s a heavy emphasis on education in Tamil Nadu (there may or may not be genetic reasons but I have no idea, you guys are the biology/genetic experts). The main point is that religion isn’t holding anyone back.
Take a look at ISRO, there are tons of non-Brahmin Tamils, start with the chairam, if you will. There are several others in various different fields too, and naturally their numbers will only increase with time as more and more escape poverty and receive proper education.
You claim that Pakistanis are outperformed by Indian Brahmins because they’re Muslim converts who were mostly at the bottom-half of the caste hierarchy. Even if this was the true reason, how do you explain the lack of winners from other Islamic countries? I also mentioned Israel and Singapore, did I not? What’s stopping an Islamic country from developing a reputable space program?
“What’s stopping an Islamic country from having a Space Program?”
The Ummah needs to have a conference in a Bedouin tent to first determine whether or not Space Flight is “Halal”. Only then can they slaughter a Goat and drink Zam-Zam water before getting on with the proceedings. Maybe they’ll stone a couple infidels for entertainment as well.
This right here is an example of classic Islamophobia. All the cliched sterotypes (Bedouin tents, stoning infidels etc). You have already been called out on your racism once and threads have had to be closed because of you. Rarely have I seen such an obnoxious commenter on this forum.
And Mr. “White-Passing”, learn to read. I only brought up my English Lit degree in the context of a discussion about literaty taste. You completely spun that out of context.
And you keep bringing up your MCATS. My family has been producing doctors since the time of the British Raj. We’re not lower class parvenus like you. Fuck off.
The notion that Muslims of India are primarily descendants of lower caste converts is total BS. That is not how conversion worked. Shit loads of Pakistanis go by Rao, Rana, Raja, Rathore, Jaswal etc – clearly Rajput surnames (that Naipaul too commented on in his Among The Believers).
There has been conversion by Brahmins too and also Banias (Sethis). And in many cases people took fancy Islamicate surnames to blend in. This is esp true in Brahmins where conversion to Islam would’ve meant straight up excommunication.
There’s not much difference between Pakistanis / Indians / Bangladeshis in ingrained congenital ability (such as it is) to contribute to scholastic / academic pursuits. The difference is cultural.
this seems broadly correct
I think there is no challenge to “Muslims of India are primarily descendants of lower caste converts” in the discourse because it suits both right and left.
The right cannot fathom that the cream of their people broke ranks and joined the enemy. The left can hail the egalitarian values of Islam. Its, as the say, a convenient theory.
IsThisReal, you point to a real problem. part of it is that the person you are addressing isn’t interested in real history, just buzzwords learned in university to defeat people in arguments. basically, they’re a lexical bot.
that being said, the direction the conversation is going is not edifying.
i respect that hindus can have negative feelings toward islam and muslims grounded in real experiences and historical events. but that does not negate the fact that islam was not purely a destructive enterprise, and in its own time it was synthetic and generative.
the problem in the subcontinent it rejected synthesis, but did not have the power to swallow indian culture (as it did with iran turan egypt and mesopotamia). so we’re at an impasse.
p.s. APthk, traditionally hindu medicine still has a subsection for the study of the ‘yavannas’, which is basically islamo-galenic medicine.
Islam is the “most flawed”? The Hindu caste system is the most disgusting institution ever and has no place in the 21st century. There is no concept of “untouchability” in Islam.
As for Israel, winning Nobel prizes doesn’t absolve it of being a settler-colonial state and constantly stealing Palestinian land. Please learn some basic argumentation.
Finally, merely having certain stereotypes about Islam doesn’t automatically make someone a Hindutvadi but coupled with other things like defending the destruction of Babri and advocating for CAA, it’s enough to be able to gage someone’s political position.
Actually Islam and Judaism are very closely related in terms of elements,concepts and practices. But Judaism is directly related to having Jewish ancestry whereas islam does not have such things. Jews are an ethno-religious group whereas muslims are culturally,ethnically and racially very diverse. So comparing Jews with members of a universal global religion like islam/Christianity is improper.
Naipaul, Sen, Raman, Bannerji, Tagore, Raman and Chandrasekhar were all Brahmins.
sens are mostly baidya or kayastha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sen_(surname)
Fazlur Khan AKA “The Einstein of Structural Engineering” and “The greatest structural engineer of the 20th century” was a Bangladeshi. His designs underly everything from the WTC to the Sears Tower to the Burj Khalifa. He wasn’t a Brahmin, and though he was a (converted) Muslim, he made seminal contributions to the discipline of structral engineering. The whole idea that only Brahmins are capable of intellectual genius is just hilarious. Even Islam hasn’t affected the ability of other subcontinentals to make an indelible impact on the course of history. Makes you wonder what is going on in the “Land of the Pure” — any ideas?
Forgot to add, Sal Khan of Khan academy (widely regarded as a pedagogical genius) thanks in large part to whom I was able to perform admirably on the MCAT, is also Bangaldeshi. Of course we can’t forget the greatest Khan himself, Razib. Intellectual heavyweights abound.
-Long time fan.
His father was Bangladeshi, mother is Indian.
His dad divorced his mother when he was quite young, he was raised by his mother. And he’s married to a Pakistani, if I’m not mistaken
South Asian or Bengali would be more appropriate.
Bengalis in general, along with Bangladeshis, are very, very smart from what I have observed personally in the diaspora. Some people in my extended family work at the World Bank, and they have had interactions with Koushik Basu, the chief economist there — they say he is perhaps the most humble yet smartest person they have ever met.
One of my best friends at the moment is also from Bangladesh, and is in a MD-PhD program at the instituion I am currently attending. He didn’t know about Razib until I introduced him to his work. He is also a fan. Reminds me of the Mandarin Oriental media campaign — perhaps we could something similar for Razib and his large fan base?
Seems like Baidya is an exclusive Bengali caste. Never came across doctors being a separate caste in N-India. Brahmins are the Baidyas of N-India.
Yes but Amartya Sen who specifically won the Nobel Prize comes from a group which self identifies as Brahmin.
I also agree with your observation about some looking “Quite Dravidian” which ostensibly explains why Chandrasekhar himself, the genius that he was, still faced discriination in London when he was a scholar there. He believed Arthur Eddington’s public ridicule of his Chandrasekhar limit was partly racially motivated. His appearance certainly did him no favors, at least to those that are bigoted.
both chandra and ramanujan were ‘wheatish’ and lacked ‘sharp features’ (these are not terms i knew growing up in usa so hope using them right). chandra talked extensively about racism faced in the USA, which was worse than UK i think (parts of the border states were still segregated and ppl tried to put him in black areas…they just had to not go to this part of the country).
of course, even if they were light-skinned khatris these tambrahms would have faced prejucide in the west of the time.
google what LBJ thought when he met the leaders of south asia in the 1960s. even the pakistanis he felt uncomfortable around because they were ‘white black men’ (i’m paraphrasing, basically brown skin + caucasian features).
my assessment of kabir is he’s basically a typical college graduate who deploys buzzwords to silence interlocutors. when it doesn’t work out here he is always in eternal shock.
my wife is reading about american education was destroyed by the fixation on teaching people ‘how to think’ rather than facts. kabir is a classic example of this. he just doesn’t evince much knowledge of many things, but he has lots of dumb Theories in his head, which he deploys in nonsensical ways.
but in his real life i’m sure this works, because most of his acquaintances are probably above average intelligence people who know ‘how to think’ (read: buzzwords) and just play that game. it doesn’t work when you meet someone who knows a lot of shit.
i know a lot of shit. don’t come at me with the light-saber you purchased with a $50,000 year tuition at a liberal arts college which will give you a gentleman’s B for bullshitting.
i read those books. and i read the books in the footnotes.
That was savage. And perfectly apt and accurate. Kabir is probably suffering from PTSD after that rout. Bet he will take some time to recover before he comes back with more of his BS. Don’t let us down Kabir, your “degree in English literature” will come in handy in your attempts to shit all over this blog. Please be my guest and show us how much you “learned” in college.
Was I even addressing you? Who the hell do you think you are personally attacking me? I have been here far longer than you. You are one of the most racist and obnoxious commenters I have encountered here yet.
Since you’re so impressed by the World Bank, my father had a long career there. I grew up in Bethesda.
If you don’t want hinduism to be disrespected, don’t attack Islam.
Also, I’m endlessly fascinated by the amount of time you people spend discussing me. I woke up this morning and looked at this thread and it’s all “kabir this, kabir that”. Glad to know I’m so important.
And the attacks from Mr “white passing” himself. That’s just pathetic.
I have zero interest in even discussing Hinduism. But if you come after my religion you can best believe I’m going to come after yours. Don’t bring up Pakistan or Islam and I won’t comment here.
Do you have a link to the article you mentioned your wife reading about how American education was changed to be focused away from facts?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._D._Hirsch
this guy’s books
also, in kabir’s ‘defense’, though he comes off gauche now and then, he is not a deep hinduphobe or anything like that. he can’t help the stuff he says cuz that’s deeply ingrained in muslim s. asian culture, and some of the stuff is reactive to his rather childish nominal islam.
i dislike it when he tries to be intellectual. but when his decency kicks in he has that there. so give the shaitan his due.
Bengalis in general, along with Bangladeshis, are very, very smart from what I have observed personally in the diaspora. Some people in my extended family work at the World Bank, and they have had interactions with Koushik Basu, the chief economist there — they say he is perhaps the most humble yet smartest person they have ever met.
we’re good talkers. makes us seem brighter tbh
one of the things i’m feeling right now is weary of the anti-islam stuff i’m one of them objectively (apostate). the thing is SJW-maoism is going back to year zero. all traditional civilizations are superior to year zero. all
Bengalis and Gujus are so similar but so different. Always fun talking to my Bengali friends
Gujju is the anti-bengali of the subcontinent and vice versa. Literally take everything which gujju hates and create an ethnicity, and that will be a bong and vice versa
explain?
eat more ilish and shrimp and it would all be good
Bengali food >>> Gujarati food. Kosha Mangsho is a prime example. Chingri Malai Curry and lucchi is heavenly. And who can forget Kati Rolls? All-time favorite.
as i said on the podcast with decruz my kids are totally whitewashed and i don’t care. except the food part. perhaps one day we’ll go to brownland and eat that stuff.
west bengal more likely than bdesh since i’m atheist
I’ve only eaten Bengali food at outlets in New Delhi, and these aforementioned dishes were some of the highlights I encountered. But I’m sure Kolkata has even more delicacies that I am not aware of. I definitely recommend a trip to brownland though, especially now that Oberoi, Taj and ITC have a plethora of hotels across the region that would satisfy the whims and desires of even the most discerning traveler. I plan on visiting the homeland later this year, once COVID-related travel restrictions are lifted. Its been a while since I ate the Skindari Raan at Bukhara and the Butter Chicken at Gulati. Or the Chilli Chicken at Ichiban, Pandara Road. Best food I’ve ever eaten. My palate misses that stuff on a daily basis.
It’s an interesting case of similar personalities different mindsets
re: brain drain, you need to see %. not absolute numbers. my understanding reading econ lit is that brain-drain is not a big thing for big countries (india, china) but is for small countries.
I think folks are being too tough on Kabir. Frankly i dont see much difference in his views on Hinduism and what lot of us have abt Islam, subconsciously or otherwise. Its in the same ballpark i would say.
There are around 15 regular commentators here. On any given day, there’s a high chance at least one would be bored and looking to troll.
Kabir falls for it every time – hook, line, and sinker.
That’s part of what makes him interesting.
But he doesn’t let go and replies to every single remark that has ‘Islam’ or ‘Pakistan’ mentioned in it. So much so that one has to tip toe around these keywords lest one invokes his wrath.
This becomes really spammy and I’ve developed a sort of selective blindness to his posts.
These past couple of weeks, I was extremely bored and engaged with him leading to some unsavoury comments and spam.
I’d like to desist from it in the future.
this seems plausible. i don’t read a lot of his comments closely anymore.
that being said, his demand (made a while back) that non-muslims do “PUBH” is obnoxious. also, he proactively made fun of taking hindu myths seriously for historical value. which is totally fair. but, he flips his shit when you do the same to islamic scripture.
i think over time he’s gotten more “fair” and even-handed here because of the blowback of casual anti-hindu things which even secular muslim subcontinentals will say privately.
Kabir reminds me of those “educated liberals” in America that cry foul about the dogmeat festival in Yulin, then turn around and lampoon most Indian Hindus for NOT eating Beef. The irony is palpable. And HILARIOUS.
https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/opinion-why-hagia-sophia-turkey-and-charismatic-figure-of-erdogan-bristles-with-resonances-for-india/356503?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=tw&utm_campaign=amp
Why Hagia Sophia, Turkey And The Charismatic Figure Of Erdogan Bristle With Resonances For India
“More fundamentally, the failing secularism of Turkey and India begs the question: is secularism even possible in non-Christian/non-Western societies? Without the Western experiences of Reformation and the Enlightenment, hard-fought victories as they were, can non-Western societies value the principles of freedom and secularism? Why is it that, unlike in the West where democratisation and secularism went hand in hand, greater democratisation has seemed to only bring religious chauvinism in India and Turkey?
The answers to these questions are perhaps disturbing, and cannot be obscured by the charge of ‘Eurocentrism’, which has long been used to justify reactionary leaders. But what is clear is that the modern ‘reconquests’ of religious structures are not being effected by sultans and generals, but by the democratic “will of the majority”. Historical wounds are being opened afresh, and nations being made anew. Both the processes are linked, of course, and values of liberal humanism are offering little resistance.”
More fundamentally, the failing secularism of Turkey and India begs the question: is secularism even possible in non-Christian/non-Western societies?
a bit on the stupid side. east asian societies can do secularism cuz they did it before the west. china korea and japan all beat down organized religions when they got too big for their britches.
the question is a real one in MENA & india because religion is constitutive of identity. it is not in NE asia.
Wasn’t it the same in pre Islamic India too? No organized religious institution exercised political power the way church did in Europe, or the way the the theologians exercised influence in Islamic period.
In my understanding, the state or the community in Indian society was never overawed by religious institutions. They were broadly only engaged in cultural conditioning.
“More fundamentally, the failing secularism of Turkey and India begs the question: is secularism even possible in non-Christian/non-Western societies?”
‘Secularism’ is a much abused term in India.
Hindutva seems a pretty materialist movement to me. It’s not really concerned with theological matters. One could say it is secular.
It just wishes to re-allocate material resources in a way that benefits a certain group of people.
We have seen this over and over in Europe and the west.
Btw Asim would make a good BrownCast guest. He’s seems to be an honest liberal.
I second Prats, Asim will be a good guest. Especially if Omar bhai is on the podcast as well. Pay-per-view 😛
Guju food is good when homemade. Not a fan of a lot of the restaurant stuff. I don’t eat meat, so I can’t have most bengali food.
Going back to genetics what are the ANI-AASI breakdowns for the extreme ends of the subcontinent? I feel like the difference is really not that big.
Jatt_Scythian – I think the differences are actually quite huge. A kerala/tamilnadu tribal is a very different person from a kalasha from chitral.
Yes technically both have all three of the source populations that make up a modern south asian, but the mix or percentages is skewed so massively at the extremes.
I wonder if europeans are as heavily skewed at the extremes? I.e. is a Portuguese person as different from a Swede as a south indian is from a jatt? Or are they more similar.
In either case, most outsiders think of both Portuguese and Swedes as “white” or “european” and most people think of south Indian tribals and Jatts as “brown” or “south asian”.
excluding iranian speakers 70% (pulliyar/paniay) to 15% AASI seems reasonable. but most populations are 40-60%
Thanks. That’s what I understood as well. I’ve spoken to Davidski (I’m a regular at his website), the Reich Lab members (by email) and some other people who actually know what they are doing and have the requisite credentials, along with published research in reputed journals, and they seem to share this notion. Amateurs (some of whom I spoke to here, and others at Anthrogenica, AKA Amateurgenica) who take an incomplete simulated model and then transpose their own amateur insights and analyses onto it just because “it shows a pattern” and suits their narrative, can just keep barking like rabid dogs, won’t change anything. Again, their results are meaningless, for they are mere amateurs with too much time.
Anyway, I’m done talking to self-proclaimed “experts” without any credentials and credibility, they can email each other and engage in circle jerks all day long, after taking a sound beating from me and others here. Their stubbornness, stupidity and low IQ won’t yield to the truth. I’m just here to listen to Razib. Good evening folks.
Its a parallel to Latin America in terms of West Eurasian % as well, especially for the most West Eurasian South Asian Biradri groups. White Brazilians, or Criollos, are also in the >80% West Eurasian range, and are around ~84-85% West Eurasian IIRC, just like Rors and Hindu Jats.
Also, it is fair to say that just like Latinos look like Indios, Mestizos, Harnizos, Castizos and Criollos (Pure Whites) in order of least to most West Eurasian ancestry, there is a parallel in South Asia/India where South Asians look like Indigenous Dravidians, Mestizos, Harnizos, Castizos and Criollos(Pure MENA/Central Asians) in order of least to most West Eurasian ancestry. This also comports with my experiences as one of these Criollos, and one can see this clearly in my two albums that I’ve posted. I find it fascinating that White Americans invariably always find it unbelievable that I’m from India, even though I always say that I am, because my face is like that of a “White guy” to them. Anyway, I’ve said enough. Glad to get more perspectives from Razib et al.
Regarding Ali Chaudhry’s comments about the lack of Dalit achievement in sciences compared to that of Brahmins.
Dalits have been doing increasingly better in India’s competitive exams. Some are studying CS at IIT Bombay, possibly the most competitive degree program in the whole world to get into. They are even starting companies before graduating college, ala Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg.
https://www.quora.com/profile/Kalpit-Veerwal
More than the Konkan Railway and Mangalyaan, I would consider these developments as independent India’s greatest achievements.
this is the model https://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/world/asia/11caste.html
Cmon, we know what Ali is talking about. And he is not wrong.
The lack of diversity in achievements of Indian origin folks should be worrying. We can all take solace that dalits are studying in IITs, I guess. The set of people who are champions of Indian industry also happen to be Noble prize winners. The day we really have a blue chip dalit entrepreneur AKA dalit Tata or Ambani we can say we have achieved. Till then its a long road ahead.
“The set of people who are champions of Indian industry also happen to be Noble prize winners.”
Brahmin and Kshatriya contribution to Indian industry is not very substantial. Indian industry is dominated by the mercantile castes, and in fact most of India’s unicorns are led by Vanias.
“In 2016, the most common surname of the directors of the companies listed in the National Stock Exchange of India was Agarwal (and its variations). The second most common surname was Gupta. Even in modern-day tech and ecommerce companies, they continue to dominate. It was reported in 2013, that for every 100 in funding for e-commerce companies in India, 40 went to firms founded by an Agrawal. Of a total of 4 startups out of India that have crossed $10 Billion valuation, all except Paytm were founded by an Agrawal.”
This list is pretty diverse, 3 Hindi Vanias, 1 Gujarati Patidar, 1 Bengali Kayastha from Gujarat (girl), 1 Marathi Brahmin, 2 Telugu Brahmins, 1 Telugu Reddy.
wwwDOTjagranjoshDOTcom/articles/jee-advanced-2019-toppers-list-name-marks-rank-statistics-1560491698-1.
Conversely, North Indian Brahmins are especially lacking in achievement, academic or industrial. There is a reason Kartik Tiwari changed his name to Kartik Aryan ….
Yeah u make it seem as that Vania, Brahmin, Kshartiya form 50 percent of India pops or something. If i start subdividing OBCs it might take me next week for it 2 end. Diversity within the same 15 percent is not diversity, i was referring to.
Again you know what i was referring to.
the issue is the % AASI in the IVC component. in moorjani et al. N indian brahmins are still 35% ASI.
we know ASI is .7 AASI. this gives a floor of 25% AASI. i’d say 30-35% AASI resaonable
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769933/
Regarding the relative lack of science achievers from the core Muslim world in the recent years, this might be a consequence of the lack of a priestly caste in Islam. The Muslim country with the most apparent contribution to science today is Iran, and the Iranian Shia tradition differs from the Sunni in the presence of a priestly order.
Steppe ancestry don’t mean squat for IQ btw. If steppe ancestry and IQ had any correlation, we’d see jats and pashtuns running google and microsoft instead of tambrams.
Its clear that an upbringing focused on education is the biggest key to success. Brahmins simply have that as a part of their cultural package because that’s been their role in society for thousands of years. Tho to be fair, still doesn’t explain why south indian brahmins in particular are so dominant.
Asians have higher IQs. AASI = Asian ancestry, so it makes sense that more of it would make you smarter, no? Maybe there are diminishing returns after a certain admixture level, but I am not one to make speculations.
s indian brahmins = english.
west bengali elites do OK too. the bhadrolok
English also means access to world of the current knowledge.
Asians have higher IQs. AASI = Asian ancestry, so it makes sense that more of it would make you smarter, no? Maybe there are diminishing returns after a certain admixture level, but I am not one to make speculations.
1) NE asians
2) AASI diverged from NE asians (on average) more than 40,000 years ago
total ancestry is poorly predictive
I see. Thanks for clarifying that.
Here’s my contribution to the Hindu Muslim food fight in the thread.
There is actually a sect of muslims who are super ballers. They’re called Ismailis I think. I don’t know much about them, but they always come correct whether it’s education, entrepreneurship, or just being straight up classy people. These are my impressions from the interactions I’ve had.
Whatever it is they’re doing, in terms of culture, seems to be something that other muslims (maybe everyone) should aspire to. Genuine question, why doesn’t the broader islamic community just emulate them?
Non Ishmailis like Sunni Vohras, memons etc do pretty well also.
I don’t really see a link with religion, expect maybe if it closes people off to the modern body of knowledge.
I think maybe Christians outperform adjusted for starting socio economic status compared to other religions in India because they are most open to English and Western knowledge. (Not sure)
25-70% AASI makes sense. Indio to Castizo with most people mestizos and most upper castes harnizos 😉
So its what I thought. Most Indians are 50% to 75% West Eurasian (with some exceptions like the Paniya being 30% West Eurasian and the most western Haryana Jatts being 85% West Eurasian).
Its interesting what the Paniya look like. I can easily see a 100% AASI population being close to Onge.
They look very different from the Vedas.
Also a few points in IQ doesn’t really mean shit. NE Asia vs Europe.
this could be selection, but the onge have tightly curled frizzy hair. most indians have straight/wavy hair. even the paniya don’t seem frizzy haired.
(the onge are descended from ppl related to the hohabanian in SE asia, they came from burma)
Interesting they look quite different from the “Irula” people who are also very high AASI.
How much genetic diversity was there in within the AASI component in the Indian subcontinent ?
i don’t know.
there are way more irulas so way more pics. they don’t look THAT different than a lot of south indians tbh (a bit darker and less west eurasian looking)…wondering if jatt_scythian picked atypical paniya images?
It’s interesting how similar these people look like to Australian Aborigines (strongly defined brow ridges, depressed nasal roots and bridge, and some marked cases of alveolar prognathism), but in between AASI-India and Aboriginal Australia there are the Onge and the Papuans, both of whom are much more overtly “Negroid” looking (although Papuans in particular I think can look quite distinctive from African people, I still think on the whole they resemble more Africans than they do Australians).
I wonder if the original Out of Africa humans phenotypically would have resembled some cross-section of AASI-Onge-Papuan-Australian people.
people have to realize it isn’t as simple as.these components either. But as someone who clusters with S Indian Brahms, I’ll accept the pseudoscience based flattery
Like Mohan said, upbringing is the biggest factor.
As for South Indians (specifically Tambrahms) doing better: from what I’ve observed, people in Tamil Nadu put a lot more emphasis on quality education. In the north it’s more about somehow getting a high-paying job.
Knew a Mallu at school (he’s at IISER now) whose goal is to win a Nobel Prize, never heard anybody else speak of such an academically-oriented goal. Everyone else usually just says “doctor” or “engineer” because they either like the profession or just want to make good money.
https://www.thenational.ae/uae/science/final-launch-preparations-under-way-for-uae-mars-mission-1.1047390
IQ is driven by a lot of societal factors. But I think the more intresting question is why have certain groups been able to build societies that foster high IQs while others have not? I don’t think Indians are dumber than other groups but other groups have built the societies that allow us to thrive. We haven’t built them ourselves.
the peasant is the foundation of chinese society. there is no blood nobility. the theory in NE asia is that everyone could (not in practice) become a learned person.
is this true in india? i see ppl on youtube claim that ancient india had all these schools and universities. but were sudras and dalits (majority of population) allowed to learn the vedas and partake of learning?
There is a book by Dharampal called The Beautiful Tree which documents the percentage of school kids by caste during early colonial times, before the Macaulay introduced English education (1800s). It was documented that 52% of kids came from the broadly called BCs, 20% from Brahmins and the remaining from Kshatriyas and Vaishyas. I am not sure if Shudras were allowed to read Vedas (most likely not), because at the time of documentation, it looks like the medium of instruction was the local language, and sometimes even Farsi and Urdu.
I’ve heard of Chinese traveler stories who learned Sanskrit before coming to study in Nalanda. Given that Nalanda had a huge Buddhist influence, I am inclined to think Shudras were attending them.
Yea Buddhist and Jain schools of knowledge were open.
Within Hinduism Yogic Siddhas, Shaiva Nayanmars etc included lots of Dalits and shudras.
Orthodox Vedic and Vaishnavaite traditions (pre-Bhakti reforms) restricted to Brahmins. Who had asymmetric advantage as you could be a Brahmin and a Siddha and a Buddhist. And have access to all three traditions of knowledge. But one couldn’t get access to the Brahmin tradition unless born into the fold.
I don’t know how much this has to do with economics. Non caste ridden areas like Sindh, and Bangladesh aren’t significantly different in economic performance.
I can answer from a Kerala context. Shaankara smRti is a document outlining the customs and rituals unique to Kerala (smRtis are usually region-specific). A major part of this book is devoted to the conduct of Brahmins. However, there are a few references to the other communities. Under a chapter titled Education, it says that “even though Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas in other regions, after their thread-wearing ceremony, engage in Vedic studies, here in Kerala, only Brahmins are allowed to study Vedas”. In a different chapter, it says that “Shudras should be learned in Sanskrit, but not Shaastras”. I do not know how well this was followed by other communities, but the customs in the book were definitely followed by Brahmins. The book also, interestingly, lists 64 customs unique to Kerala (like, disallowing widow-burning).
To summarize, Brahmins seemed to have kept Vedas exclusively to themselves. But education seemed to have been encouraged for other varnas. In fact, as early as 15th century, we have the presence of non-Brahmin poets, medics, etc in Malayalam who had a good knowledge of Sanskrit.
I do have an e-copy of Saankara smRti. It is in Malayalam, though.
Asim Alim asks whether secularism is possible in non-Christian/non-Western countries.
More fundamentally, the failing secularism of Turkey and India begs the question: is secularism even possible in non-Christian/non-Western societies? Without the Western experiences of Reformation and the Enlightenment, hard-fought victories as they were, can non-Western societies value the principles of freedom and secularism? Why is it that, unlike in the West where democratisation and secularism went hand in hand, greater democratisation has seemed to only bring religious chauvinism in India and Turkey?
https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/opinion-why-hagia-sophia-turkey-and-charismatic-figure-of-erdogan-bristles-with-resonances-for-india/356503
in 24 hours 177 comments on the ‘open thread’. this blog is getting popular…
Hinduism is not going to last until the 22nd century. Only Islam and Christianity will make it.
Oh, don’t worry, every religion is gonna decline in the next few centuries as education and income levels improve. Nobody is safe.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/29/turkish-students-increasingly-resisting-religion-study-suggests
I’m personally interested in knowing how fast atheism is increasing in certain Islamic countries, however, since many of them are quite harsh on atheism and/or apostasy, we probably won’t get to know.
How do you make 80 year predictions? Anyhow as a general rule history is full of unpredictable things. Things which no one imagined may be around the corner
@Razib Khan,
You should follow New Discoveries. It is run by James Lindsay and Peter Boghossian.
https://newdiscourses.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9K5PLkj0N_b9JTPdSRwPkg
They are two academics, who have make a project to examine and critique Critical Theory which is the engine behind the the New Left.
They have unique arguments and insights I have not heard anywhere else from people who oppose “Social Justice”.
Guess Razib is right when he says “part of it is that the person you are addressing isn’t interested in real history, just buzzwords learned in university to defeat people in arguments. basically, they’re a lexical bot.”
All I got was whataboutism, points that were already acknowledged being brought up, aggressiveness (because they think it’s some sort of superiority contest) and zero acknowledgement of my main point, which was about lack of scientific temper.
You can’t call Islam the “most backward” when your own faith (I assume you are Hindu) theologically justifies the caste system. Your “Laws of Manu” are utterly disgusting. And you have the gall to criticize the Holy Quran? And who gave you the authority to decide which religion is the “most backward” anyway?
Hinduism also justifies widow-burning and stuff like that. Muslim women can remarry after their husband’s death (after going through an “iddat” period in order to verify paternity).
Your argument about Jews and Nobel Prizes is completely ridiculous. As if Nobel Prizes justify settler-colonialism and breaking International Law.
You’re just a stupid Islamophobe. You people just want to trash Islam since that gives you jollies for some reason.
At least all of that is rather flexible.
“You can’t call Islam the “most backward” when your own faith (I assume you are Hindu) theologically justifies the caste system.”
Many people already acknowledged the caste part on this blog before and I VERY CLEARLY said that each religion has its own flaws.
I admit that caste is a huge problem in certain places and needs to be fixed, but you really need to stop acting delusional and get off your high horse. I personally don’t like discussing caste because talking about something that you want to get rid of seems very counter-intuitive.
If you’ve lived in the subcontinent for as long as I have, you would feel stupid about making that statement. You think only Hindus practice the caste system? Lol
I’ve seen many Muslims from northern India treat the Dravidian Muslims like they’re inferior time and again. Sikhism has quite a bit of casteism too (mostly the Jatts from what I’ve seen). Haven’t met a whole lot of Christians (even though my close friend is Christian) so can’t really say much about them.
The issues with caste are mainly societal/cultural rather than religious, if it were religious then I don’t see any reason for it to be present among other religions in the subcontinent. If you wanna blame Hinduism for it then maybe you should ask yourself why Muslims practice it too even today. No Hindu is forcing you to follow it.
Deep Bhatnagar provided several sources that show the prevalence of the caste system among Muslims in the subcontinent-
https://www.brownpundits.com/2018/06/05/shudra-american-doctor-speaks-out/
And please don’t bring up your garbage “the Holy Quran doesn’t speak about caste” standard argument, everyone here knows that Muslims practice it too. And I’m sure I won’t have to remind you about the whole “sons of Muhammad” (Ashrafs) being called superior compared to “low-born people” (Ajlafs). Gonna blame Hinduism for this too? Or was Ziauddin Barani some sort of undercover Hindu trying to infiltrate Islam?
“Hinduism also justifies widow-burning and stuff like that. Muslim women can remarry after their husband’s death (after going through an “iddat” period in order to verify paternity).”
What’s next, somebody’s gonna bash the Church for burning people accused of “witchcraft”?
Ever heard of “reformations”? Do you see the majority modern-day Hindus practicing Sati?
Fun fact- Saudi Arabia is the only country today where “witchcraft & sorcery” is legally punishable by death.
And since you seem to care so much about marginalization and all, care to speak about Ahmadis and Shia (especially Ahmadis and Shia Hazaras )? Many of them flee from Pakistan and Afghanistan to India.
I remember you posted a report about a Dalit groom being beaten somewhere in India not so long ago for sitting on a horse or something like that. A Shia Hazara wedding was bombed less than a year ago-
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/bloody-suicide-attack-on-kabul-wedding-kills-at-least-63/2019/08/18/ace5f0d4-c17d-11e9-a5c6-1e74f7ec4a93_story.html
Hazars are already a persecuted group in Afghanistan, and being Shia only makes things worse-
“The extremist Sunni militia described the man as a Pakistani named Abu Asim who had attacked a gathering of “rejecter polytheists,” as the group describes followers of Shiite Islam.”
And I don’t think I even need to speak about how Ahmadis are treated, the overwhelming majority of the Islamic world treats them very harshly. There are loads and loads of cases of Ahmadis being killed mercilessly and having their mosques burned down. It’s so bad that they aren’t even completely safe in western places like the UK-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis#United_Kingdom
Do you see such levels of anti-lower-caste stuff being actively published and circulated in the UK by upper-caste Hindus? When was the last time you heard about someone handing out leaflets that called for the killing of all lower-caste people?
“Your argument about Jews and Nobel Prizes is completely ridiculous. As if Nobel Prizes justify settler-colonialism and breaking International Law.”
No, you’re ridiculous, I can’t help but call you a dumb piece of shit at this point, sorry about that.
I was merely trying to point differences between Islamic and non-Islamic neighbours, I also pointed out Singapore and Malaysia, did I not?
I wasn’t using this as some territorial argument whatsoever, that’s an entirely different debate. I was comparing Israel with the rest of the middle-east in terms of scientific achievements, that is all. The fact that you can’t see anything beyond “Jew bad, Israel evil” is both sad and laughable.
South Asian Muslims practice caste because we were influenced by the larger Hindu society. South Asian Christians practice caste as well as Sujatha Gidla pointed out in her book “Ants Among Elephants”. However, Islam doesn’t THEOLOGICALLY justify caste. Our religion teaches us that all Muslims are equal in the eyes of Allah. Yours teaches you that Brahmins were born from god’s head and Shudras from his feet. Caste is the central feature of Hinduism (its original sin). It is not a central feature of Islam.
“Ashraf” doesn’t mean “sons of Muhammad”. I don’t know where you got that nonsense from. The word comes from “shurafa” meaning nobility.
You all were practicing sati up until the British banned it. Even afterwards, widows lived in ashrams and had miserable lives. We’ve all seen Deepa Mehta’s “Water”. Islam was revealed in the 7th century and widow remarriage was allowed from the very beginning. Islam gave women the right to divorce.
We’re not talking about sectarian violence here so bringing up Shia and Hazara is irrelevant.
Of course, there is a lack of scientific achievement in the Muslim world. However Nobel Prizes don’t whitwash Zionist crimes.
You are an incorrigible Islamophobe. Keep digging yourself into a hole.
“South Asian Muslims practice caste because we were influenced by the larger Hindu society.”
Blaming Hinduism for your own shortcomings as usual. Like I said, nobody is forcing any Muslim to follow the caste system. You obviously haven’t seen how Muslims in the subcontinent treat each other, no wonder you’re so deluded and what not. Even if they removed every mention of caste tomorrow from every article and piece of paper, people in the subcontinent, regardless of their religion, will still follow it to a certain extent.
“You all were practicing sati up until the British banned it. Even afterwards, widows lived in ashrams and had miserable lives. We’ve all seen Deepa Mehta’s “Water”. Islam was revealed in the 7th century and widow remarriage was allowed from the very beginning.”
You can’t possibly get any cheaper than this. Always living in the past and refusing to acknowledge the fact that modern-day Hindus don’t practice Sati, if you’re gonna bash Hinduism for this then I guess it’s fair that we all get to call your prophet a disgusting pedophile, don’t start whining about it now, you’re the one who set the tone here. Last time someone called him a pedophile on this blog you began whining like a little kid.
“We’re not talking about sectarian violence here so bringing up Shia and Hazara is irrelevant.”
Not at all. It’s very much relevant. Just because it’s sectarian doesn’t change jackshit. Stop trying to hide. You spoke about the mistreatment of a certain group of people and so did I, nobody said it can’t be sectarian.
You very well know that Ahmadis are treated in an extremely inhumane manner in tons of places, doesn’t matter if it’s a rural or urban area. Even though India provides them the freedom to call themselves Muslims (unlike certain other intolerant countries), Sunnis still try to harass them.
Go ahead and let me know when was the last time you saw a lower-caste wedding being bombed that led to 90+ people being killed, I’ll wait. Also, let me know if you ever came across leaflets asking for the death of lower-caste people being handed out in the UK.
“Of course, there is a lack of scientific achievement in the Muslim world. ”
Good to see you finally admit that Islam is a major obstacle in the way of science (compared to other religions at least).
“However Nobel Prizes don’t whitwash Zionist crimes.”
As I very clearly mentioned already, I’m not talking about the territorial dispute, that’s an entirely different topic, can’t understand why it’s so hard for you to get that through your head. Out of curiosity, are you parents cousins by any chance?
“You are an incorrigible Islamophobe. Keep digging yourself into a hole.”
I guess I finally understand why most people here just go around throwing the word pedophile and desert cult and don’t bother posting a whole lot of facts to get their point across, you’re deluded and stubborn as hell.
Are you stupid? It’s not that difficult to understand the difference between a religion that THEOLOGICALLY justifies Caste (as the disgusting “Laws of Manu” do) and one which explictly insists that all believers are equal in Allah’s eyes. All Muslims can pray together in mosques. We have no concept of “untouchables” polluting temples. South Asian Muslim culture has been influenced by the majority Hindu society. That’s simply a fact.
It’s not “bashing” Hinduism to point out that you all were treating women very badly up until fairly recently in History. Islam was revealed in thr 7th century yet there was no concept of widows being killed. Islam gave women the right to divorce in which case the husband had to pay back the “haq mehar”. It’s foolish to argue that it was not a progressive religion for its time.
Again, sectarian violence is not the topic. Don’t deflect.
Talking about my parents being cousins is completely below the belt and unacceptable (and no they’re not. We don’t do that in my family).
Settler-colonialism is not a “territorial dispute”. If you had any intelligence you’d understand that distinction. And arguing about Nobel Prizes is a bad argument.
You are an extremely stupid and bigoted asshole. I’m done with you. But don’t pretend to be some injured neutral party. You’ve revealed the depths of your Islamophobia.