Pakistan has already started pushing Khalistan agenda via Katarpur. It was a big mistake to open the corridor. I can already see it coming. Khalistani brainwashed terrorists aka Jimmy Singh’s posse from Canada will infiltrate India and commit acts of aggression.
Master stroke by Immy. Once again, foolish move by India.
A bunch of factors need to come together to create ideal conditions for the reemergence of extremism. Youth unemployment is a big one, not sure about the ground situation in punjab right now among the castes that form the core of any possible separatist movement. Overall, I think the least of all issues is exposure to extreme ideas. This is the internet age after all, the cat is out of the bag. In the long run, ind-pak reconciliation will be tied to intra-punjab reconciliation, and I could see the effect of these cross-border initiatives as softening pakistani stridency more than anything.
“In the long run, ind-pak reconciliation will be tied to intra-punjab reconciliation,”
This is a wrong assumption which Pakistani and some Indians make. Had it been left to Punjabis there would have been reconciliation long back. But unlike Pakistan , punjabis make 2 percent of pops in India, and dont really matter, outside of Bollywood of course. That’s the reason outside of Indian Punjab no one really cares whether Karatapur works or not. But somehow Pakistan (because of being punjabi heavy) thinks its some sort of big deal in India.
The real reconciliation will not happen unless N-India minus punjab is on board on it. The south and east India has nonchalant to OK-ish view of Pakistan which really leaves the North as the power broker.
I get what you mean wrt the core north being the ultimate arbiters. My angle was less that indian punjabis have the political agency to settle overall bilateral relations, but more that the initial causal factor that will ultimately lead to reconciliation between the gangetic people and pakistan is something happening in punjab first. Is there a reason why UPites wouldn’t follow cues to lower the stakes if there were many (successful) iterations of trust building along the punjab border?
The Punjabis and Bengalis dont get choose when they partition themselves and then get together just because they feel like doing so.
The bad blood has gone for far too long for N-indians to let it just be a Punjabi affair. Now its our affair too. Just like Kashmir is no longer a Pandit -Muslim affair. So if tomorrow , magically if both punjab become cool, or pandit-muslim somehow miraculously reconcile , it will not fix the Kashmir issue.
I was looking at some of the pics, its beautiful though. Also spread wise seems to be larger than golden temple, even though seems like it just houses only the Karatpura Gurdwara and nothing else.
Being a Bangladeshi, i can assure u that hindu population in Bangladesh is increasing. I dont understand why u even care about their population unless you are trolling. Their birth rate is a bit higher these years. But i dont care since i am not into identity politics like that of citizens of our neighbouring countries. 🙂
But i do care when i find the government giving some particular community a lot of unfair advantages and setting some particular community at the top positions of different government and non-government organizations.
There has been incidents where mosques were destroyed for developing roads and highways (AS IT SHOULD BE) but the hindu temples at the same region were not demolished though it was necessary for developing roads and highways.
Plus, there are millions of indian citizens who are working illegally and legally within BD which is having a negative impact on our economy, job sectors and our personal lives.
it is better not to mention all the unfair deals that our government made in favour of india which has negatively affected Bangladesh politically,militarily and economically at different times.
Yes, there has been cases where hindu people migrated to india. Those happened mostly because of economic reasons , not because they were persecuted in anyway. India overally had (and has) a much better economy and better job markets. Also, it is natural for humans to want to be with people who are similar to them.
Now, some indian parties want to make it appear as if hindus are being persecuted which will serve the interests of those parties. And i am pretty sure that there are some efforts to cause some communal problems(like riots) within Bangladesh which will ultimately benefit those indian political parties (the type of parties that support unnecessary and stupid ideas like Akhand Bharat,Hindu Raj etc)
In fact, it is the members of the ruling party Awami league who have in some cases grabbed properties of rural hindus and attacked personal temples for their own economic gains.
I wrote all these things not to criticize or support anyone but because these are facts. No need to start any online comment wars and have a nice day 🙂
I am assuming that this issue of illegal immigration will cease to be an issue in next 20 years, when both b’desh and india will enter an era of falling population. Both countries will probably actively woo young working age adults from across the border to help run the economy.
I know it sounds too wishful, but not beyond the realm of possibility. Think of the demographic landscape 20 years back. Bangladesh was thought of as a dystopian land of exploding population and imploding human conditions. Across the border west bengal was not much different, about which movies like “City of Joy” presented a very depressing, hopeless situation. You don’t hear about such dire conditions any more.
The coming onset of an era of falling human population across the globe is least talked about major issue facing the world.
Both countries have come far in last 20 years, and can go farther in next 20.
and Bengalistani bro, why do you think an overpopulated land is better than an underpopulated land? I don’t get it.
perhaps things have changed a lot in bangladesh in the last decade but an absolute pro-hindu bias does not pass the smell test. i do know that the BNP days were bad for minorities and AL is much more chill.
leopard
5 years ago
What do you guys think about shivsena betraying BJP and allying with pro minority parties?
they are going to take the path to failure like all other regional parties when the kichdi government does nothing, setting up for outright BJP majority next time OR they will vote with BJP on most matters anyway so nothing really changes
In the short term to medium term BJP will suffer, since like Bihar it does not have the voter base to withstand a joint NCP-Congress-SS push. Even a joint NCP-Congress would be enough. Also there are no opposition party left which it can ally with.All of them are against BJP already. The BJP also has the issue of not building a state level leader in 5 years , and its tallest leader is still a Brahmin with negligible voter base, and its maratha leaders are no match to Pawar.
But in long term it will benefit, since NCP will eat into SS space as SS will have to cede Hindutva to BJP and marathi manoos voterbase to NCP. Just like Bihar since it will horde the entire opposition space , the BJP will grow the highest.
Niki going to be fucking hard to beat in 2024 and/or 2028
Classic neocon but with minority/woman status but racially ambiguous enough and pretty enough to palatable even to bigots. She will take more suburban woman than any other Republican and keep classic crowd. She will also peel off a few more minorities. It will be enough to carry swing states. Dems are scared to death and already started hardcore opp research
thewarlock
5 years ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/11/opinion/india-ayodhya-temple-ruling.html
Hit piece by Khalistani New York Times writer
“On a recent visit to the northern Indian state of Punjab, I spoke to friends and family — all from the Sikh minority — and I realized that something fundamental had changed. The Sikhs are not a minority threatened by the B.J.P., which claims them as their own, a part of the Hindu fold, but their clear sense of a distinct identity has left them deeply uncomfortable with the vision of a Hindu nation.
Most of the people I spoke to had aligned themselves against the idea of a separate state demanded by armed Sikh insurgents in a violent insurrection that lasted for a decade, from 1983 to 1993. Now they were telling me this was not the country they had staked their faith in, and for the first time they spoke of working to make sure their children would become part of the large Sikh diaspora in Canada, Britain or the United States.
Already, before the R.S.S. vision takes shape, a vast majority of Muslims from Kashmir and elsewhere, the Christians of the northeast and the rest of the country as well as many in the south of India who lay claim to a different Hindu cultural identity from those in northern India, like the Sikhs I spoke to, are making it clear they want no part of it.”
Yeah this guy needs to stop clowning. BJP has widespread support. He can go bootlicking for Jimmy Singh
On one hand you have a principled conservative like Niki Hayley, who even pushed for India to be on the UNSC, when she had little political capital and much to lose, given her precarious position in state politics. On the other, you have Punjabi racial supremacists and Sikh theocrats who are wolves wearing the sheep’s clothing of leftist ideology. The unholy alliance between leftists and islamists has extended fully to extremist Sikhs of the West.
LOL, Did you know his uncle is K.P.S Gill? Like his real uncle, not cousin uncle or something. 😛
Read somewhere that during partition riots, Gill’s father handed him a sword to kill his sister (Haritosh’s mother) and himself, if Muslim groups come after them. Pretty gory stuff.
that’s the sad part. His uncle kept Khalistan insurgency in check. But he continues to betray his family with such hit pieces that only fuel separatism.
“The first Indian-American lawmaker in the US House of Representatives, Jayapal said she has expressed her concerns over the human rights situation in Kashmir with the Indian government but also publicly and to the media.
Jayapal referred to a report about detention of dozens of children in Kashmir and said detention without charges is unacceptable. She expressed her concerns about religious freedom in India and said that she proposes to bring a bipartisan resolution in the Congress.”
Also she is an american first and foremost. If Indian American politicians can use their heritage cynically to praise India to get doners, then she can do the opposite so as to burnish her credentials of being a progressive (“look, i am going against my own people”)
This is something I have almost exclusively heard from caucasian post modernist social justice warrior woke marxist people say. And even most of them wouldn’t dare say this.
Can more context be given for Jayapal? For example is she a post modernist atheist?
“Jayapal referred to a report about detention of dozens of children in Kashmir and said detention without charges is unacceptable.”
Is she asking clarification about this? Or is she asserting this? I would ask clarification about this allegation too. First I have heard of something like this. What is the period of time a juvenile delinquent can be held without bringing up formal charges? Is this related to custody of said children?
The only way to fix this problem is for India to hire many more judges, public defenders, public attorneys, and police . . . and pay them a lot more. The Indian legal system lacks to resources to execute its responsibilities.
“She expressed her concerns about religious freedom in India and said that she proposes to bring a bipartisan resolution in the Congress.””
India has far more freedom of religion than most European countries. Is Jayapal bringing up a bi-partison resolution about the EU, England, France, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland too?
At least India tries to protect her minority, moderate and atheist muslims from Islamist threats. Can the same be said of Europeans?
At least India is trying to bring common civil law to all Indian muslims. The English and Europeans are going in the opposite direction. They are introducing blasphemy laws (hate speech) to take away the freedom of religion of minority, moderate and atheist European muslims. They are introducing shariah courts to take away the rights and freedoms of minority, moderate and atheist European muslims.
If Jayapal is calling for annulling the first amendment to the Indian constitution (which limits free speech), then I support her. Is Jayapal calling for full freedom of art, thought and speech in India?
Jaypal moved to the US when she was 16 according to wikipedia. So not really american first and foremost, through and through. Moreover, she’s not christian which would tend to accelerate acculturation. Don’t agree that browns can never be American, as chicanos, puerto ricans, and polynesian-hawaians seem to be unambiguously.
Another interesting question is whether US raised ( from early childhood) browns can ever be Indian. There are some edge cases, but I tend to feel its easier for such people to push through and become American than to become Indian. A caveat here is that I think its possible from a US raised Gujju to be considered Gujju in India and so forth, but the pan-Indian identity is rooted in the experience of ones formative years having been passed in this place and under its institutions. A corollary to this is that Indianness is not taken to be an ethnicity above all, unlike our jaati and linguistic identities which we diaspora can claim.
The above impressions are from the perspective of an american born and bred brown person who speaks his ancestral language and has lived for 10+ years in India as an adult, and hardly socializes with expats. Have pretty much had a thousand iterations of this conversation with all sorts of Indian friends and relatives here who have interacted with dozens of my visiting indian-american/ british-asian friends and there is always a sense of difference and umbrage taken to idea that one of us should claim an unqualified indian identity.
as someone who grew up as brown nonxtian in 80s, this is a ridiculous conversation. browns are 10x or more american-viewed than back then. perhaps it will just STOP now. but i doubt that
(i think mass secularization since the 1980s has probably helped)
“So not really american first and foremost, through and through.”
Fascinating.
“Moreover, she’s not christian which would tend to accelerate acculturation.”
Why do you say this?
“Don’t agree that browns can never be American, as chicanos, puerto ricans, and polynesian-hawaians seem to be unambiguously.”
Speaking to the choir.
“Another interesting question is whether US raised ( from early childhood) browns can ever be Indian.”
I think so, but someone needs a lot of awareness. It also helps to be able to speak Hindi and regional languages without an accent.
“There are some edge cases, but I tend to feel its easier for such people to push through and become American than to become Indian.”
Agreed.
“A caveat here is that I think its possible from a US raised Gujju to be considered Gujju in India and so forth, but the pan-Indian identity is rooted in the experience of ones formative years having been passed in this place and under its institutions.”
Partly so. But you did it, right? I think it is possible. Each part of India is very different from every other part of India. This makes becoming a type of cosmopolitan Indian-ish person (albeit American, Canadian, Aussie, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malay, Indonesian, European) easier.
It also depends on one’s social circle and where one lives. India has large spiritual communities–albeit they are a small percentage of the total population.
“A corollary to this is that Indianness is not taken to be an ethnicity above all, unlike our jaati and linguistic identities which we diaspora can claim.”
Perceptive.
“The above impressions are from the perspective of an american born and bred brown person who speaks his ancestral language and has lived for 10+ years in India as an adult, and hardly socializes with expats. Have pretty much had a thousand iterations of this conversation with all sorts of Indian friends and relatives here who have interacted with dozens of my visiting indian-american/ british-asian friends and there is always a sense of difference and umbrage taken to idea that one of us should claim an unqualified indian identity.”
I would agree that most NRIs don’t understand India as well as they think.
I also think we should embrace all our identities. While investing in an Indian start up or doing business development or otherwise doing business in India we don’t have to be thoroughly deshi to be successful.
Razib wrote “(i think mass secularization since the 1980s has probably helped)”
I think becoming American was in some ways easier in the 1980s and 1990s than now. Today the main obstacle are post modernists.
Anan, don’t mean to imply that being christian is a prerequisite to acculturation, just that IF one happens to immigrate in adulthood, all things being equal, joining a mainstream church in america might accelerate things. Ive known at least a few konkani-catholic types who fit this mold and sort of jumped into the us mainstream culture without hesitation. In the case of people who immigrated before primary school age, this isn’t as relevant.
I veer traditional in my idea of americanness in as much as I don’t see it in the leftist creedal sense, so time put in matters. How many generations matter, as do the withering of connections to the old country. By my own measure, as a 2nd-gen with lingering affections for my cousins, i’m not as fully formed an american as the black or scots-irish kids i grew up with, but i’m still more that than indian.
To complicate things further, my co-ethnics in india completely claim me, and i have no hesitation in reciprocating.
Thought you were implying that it is easier for a Hindu (including Buddhist/Jain and Sikhs who choose to cut their hair and shave) to become American.
I think that in general it is very easy to become American. I guess the only obstacle is not to anger the post modernists too much!
“time put in matters.”
Understanding matters more than time put in.
“How many generations matter”
1 generation is enough. 1st generation Americans are as American as native born American. Immigrant Americans anecdotally love and respect America and are more patriotic than native-born Americans.
“as do the withering of connections to the old country.”
This is not necessary in America. To use Razib’s language we can code switch very easily.
“To complicate things further, my co-ethnics in india completely claim me, and i have no hesitation in reciprocating.”
Couldn’t agree more. Many Indians other than my co-ethnics embrace me too! And I them.
The first time I set foot in Indira Gandhi Airport as an adult, I experienced a reckoning: this is a place where people have faces likes mine, where my name doesn’t provoke frowns and consternation, where nobody needs to ask me why I wear a band around my wrist, and so on.
Once I had that reckoning, I realized: India is my home. America is more akin to corporate park + shopping mall of sorts: a fine place to make money and purchase things, but you wouldn’t make your home there.
Obviously, it is not financially or personally feasible for me to leave for India. But that doesn’t mean I have to celebrate America either. It is a society that will always hold my race, faith, and person in disdain (being generous here.)
“Race traitors”? You are coming dangerously close to the language of fascism.
“Indian” is not a race in any case but a nationality.
People should be allowed their principled opinions no matter what their national origin. The detention of children in Kashmir is indefensible and the fact that you react so strongly to someone who brings that up is very disturbing.
Saurav
5 years ago
If she brings a bipartisan resolution, it would be interesting to see how Indian-american community reacts to it.
She’s based in a safe, deep-Blue district, and no GOP member stands a chance of beating her. You’d need several very-wealthy donors to bankroll a smear-campaign against her, and stake a primary candidate.
bulbul
5 years ago
From those who are more intimately familiar with India than me, I wanted to ask, how is English doing there? Compared to the past.
What is its position relative to Hindi? Is it still the dominant work and written language of the elite and professional classes? Or are things shifting more to Hindi?
Now that there is much more of a middle class, has that shifted things away from English toward Hindi, as the old elite is numerically crowded out by new people who might not be nearly as comfortable with English?
What do you think the linguistic future is? My own guess is that things will (already are?) shifting decisively toward Hindi in the North, and that English will not have nearly as prominent position in the future. But I haven’t been to India in quite a while.
English is doing better, but not that much better. There is a total cottage industry now of 2 room “English-medium schools” in India specially in small towns and rural areas. But of course the result are similar to Indian govt schools, the less said the better.
The middle class might not be as comfortable in English, but that has led to trying to learn better English rather than shifting to Hindi. No one is shifting to Hindi.
The linguistic future is the position of Hindi as lingua fraca in N-India and English being the language of eduacation/jobs being hardened over time . Mostly other native language in these areas are taking a back seat. Dont go by the whole narrative of “nativist” purge happening against the elite English folks. The new nativist elite is just trying to reach the position of the old one.
1. one surprising thing is the diffusion of hindi in south india. this is mainly because of 3 reasons.
a. influx of construction and other manual labour, as south indian labour is big construction sites is practically non existent.
b. influence of bollywood.
c. most indians coming back from gulf can speak some hindi.
2. aversion to hindi among educated tamils has reduced.
English is generally improving in India. India is also slowly becoming more globalized cosmopolitan.
“Is it still the dominant work and written language of the elite and professional classes?”
Yes.
“Now that there is much more of a middle class, has that shifted things away from English toward Hindi, as the old elite is numerically crowded out by new people who might not be nearly as comfortable with English?”
Yes. Perceptive question. There are many regional english variants in many parts of India. Tamil English. Hinglish. Telegu english. Bengali english. Rajastani english. Gujju english. Bombay english. Etc. These broken english dialects are becoming more popular, including among the middle class.
Indians are a lot more self confident and self assured now. And much more likely to take pride in “Indian english” or their regional variation of broken english.
English words continue to penetrate spoken Indian language dialects too.
Mayuresh Madhav Kelkar
5 years ago
Kushinagar mosque blast caused by low grade explosive
I’m half Indian (Bengali), and have some basic idea of the country. Although I never felt fully a part of it. More like an interested foreigner. Or half so.
I also have a pretty extensive knowledge of Japanese culture, and the interesting thing for me from a language perspective is the similarity between the two.
In Japan, you have something called “keigo”, which basically means proper Japanese. It’s quite different from casual spoken Japanese. And is the province of work and education, mostly.
When I explain the language situation in India to Japanese people, I say that English has the place of keigo. English is the serious language. The language of business and education. Hindi (at least in the North) functions as casual Japanese. And when I explain it this way, Japanese very easily understand. I don’t know how to explain it to Americans, because we don’t have the same formal/informal divide that you find in Japan (and India).
I just wonder if this kind of thing will persist in India. Afterall keigo and regular Japanese are broadly the same language. Not so with English and Hindi. Plus the complicating factors of Bengali or Gujurati or Marathi etc. It just seems so inefficient. You have a business and educational (and governmental?) language that the great majority of people in India understand imperfectly at best.
I’ve met the English-speaking elite from India. But mostly in the USA, or at airports randomly. I just about never met them by chance in India (once in a bookstore). Almost everyone I met in India casually speaks English ranging from not-at-all to a little bit (the biggest group) to broken but confident to almost native.
A magnificent, progressive political leader, a prescient sage for the ages, and an advocate for his people like no other, Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah’s entire politics was about togetherness, conversation and solutions.
The Convenor and Mobiliser of his people – all his people, regardless of religion. The driver of Jinnah’s politics prior to the 1920s was agency for the colonized.
As the greatest lawyer of his generation, he was able to establish a space for a reasoned, principled and highly sophisticated narrative for all his colonized people,
Despite the reams of anti-Jinnah propaganda that has spewed slanted narratives about events like Direct Action Day in 1946, Jinnah’s legacy (relative to any other South Asian leader) as a bridge builder and an advocate for order and stability is unassailable.
Jinnah’s effort was to try to negotiate, arbitrate and hack away at hatred, division, disorder and instability.
Pakistan’s default handicaps since then have been exploited by the less capable, but equally Hindu First politicians of India since then.
Agree with what you said. India (even back in the 1970s and 1980s to a lesser degree than in the 1940s) had many people who proudly wrote and spoke high quality english. The number of these is shrinking.
Now many Indians take pride in “Indian english” and in the many broken english regional dialects.
Be curious about your experiences in West Bengal. English varies greatly in different parts of Kolkata and different parts of West Bengal outside Kolkata.
Bengali english is different from Bangalore english or Chennai english or Bombay/Mumbai english.
I think the quality of english in West Bengal has deteriorated a lot from the 1940s, and even since the 1970s/1980s. Probably partly because of the rise of Hindi. Hard as it might be to imagine today . . . it use to not be easy to get by with Hindi in many parts of West Bengal until recently. Now many in Kolkatta don’t even speak Bangla (Bengali).
This said, Bangla as a language has an increasing number of english loan words with entire english sentences mixed in.
Seems it happened to a comment of mine on the Kayastha post.
Numinous
5 years ago
Razib,
It is a society that will always hold my race, faith, and person in disdain (being generous here.)
Do you agree with HMB’s assessment above? It doesn’t square with my own impressions, though I was more like a long-term visitor than an immigrant or an American-born desi, so I’m sure I’m missing some part of the American experience that is relevant in his life.
Obviously, it is not financially or personally feasible for me to leave for India.
Why not, HMB? If you are in so much torment in America, you should move. Though I wonder how you can reconcile the following seemingly contradictory facts: (1) America holds you in disdain, and (2) America gives you a livelihood and career that is superior to what India can give you (that’s what you are saying, right?)
HM and i are very distinct people with different personalities.
i’m aware i’m superior to people i meet 🙂 even if they disdained me, do you think i would care? take what is yours. don’t beg for acceptance.
some people will be embittered by slights or perceive marginalization. many ‘working-class’ whites feel this. and they are right to, since many do look down on them. these people are white christians to the soil born, but they feel out of place. so i submit it’s not really as much about being marginalized as marginalizing yourself.
hopefully HM will be in a financial position to move back to india someday if that makes him happy. i am not particularly loyal to the USA now as i am a ‘declinist’. but if there is any country i am loyal to, and that i do fit in, this is it.
1) China’s precipitous economic rise marks the greatest industrialization event in human history, and warrants many accolades. The Chinese accomplished in a generation what most societies cannot do in 3. Or ever.
2) China is probably the one country on Earth in which a comparison to Nazi Germany is somewhat apropos.
—
You can separate the bad from the good. Similarly, I like that America has lots of money, a relative lack of air pollution, and nice national parks everywhere (I like hiking). I dislike that America’s people are obese, provincial sybarites.
“obese, provincial sybarites”
Perceptive. (I am thinking of a series of articles on American decline.)
H. M. Brough, America is in accelerating decline. If we don’t help our fellow Americans, then who will?
You are right that it is easier to live in India and retire in India. But that does not mean we should love and respect America any less.
When others are jealous of us, racist towards us, white supremacist towards us (whatever that means), nazi towards us, fascist towards us, hegemonic towards us, exploitative towards us, oppressive towards us, patriarchal towards us, imperialist colonialist towards us, Islamaphobic towards us (whatever that means), rude towards us, mean towards us, weird/odd towards us don’t they need our love, respect and help most? If we don’t help them, then who will?
+++++++++++++
Completely agree with you regarding China. The ugly jealous xenophobic global backlash against China (mostly but not exclusively from the post modernist) is sad to see.
Numinous
5 years ago
From those who are more intimately familiar with India than me, I wanted to ask, how is English doing there? Compared to the past.
What is its position relative to Hindi? Is it still the dominant work and written language of the elite and professional classes? Or are things shifting more to Hindi?
Everyone in the middle class and above speaks a curious mix of English and Hindi these days (I slip into that too unconsciously). People can start a sentence in English and end in Hindi, and vice versa. Or speak one sentence in English and the next in Hindi within a conversation. People don’t pay much attention to grammatical correctness, and often string a bunch of English words into a Hindi-like language structure. People use English words in contexts that English-speakers may not understand (applies to written Indian English too).
I don’t know what this process is. Is it creolization? Linguists here can shed more light. But a certain form (or subset) of English has become part of the Indian canon, and is not considered foreign at this point even by rabid Hindutva ideologues, regardless of what the politicians say.
Sarah
5 years ago
Do you know of any unpublished data or an ancient dna study in progress on the Neolithic and PPN period of Northern Mesopotamia? With Northern Mesopotamia I mean South-Eastern Turkey, Northern Iraq and Northern Syria.
“But in the north, it is impossible to find any temple that is older than 200 years.”
Stunning. But true.
Even a supposedly liberal emperor like Shah-Jehan would not allow any new temple to come up his domains, and actively demolish it if someone attempted to build a temple. And he was 3-quarters Indian by blood! So much for the shared Ganga-Jamani Tehzeeb.
Even in its ruin, Martand sun temple looks so majestic. It is enough to convince any one what *could have* existed in the absence of Islamic “golden age” in India.
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It is almost a certainty that a “Hindu” Taj Mahal would have come up in India had India been ruled by Hindus in medieval period. (Marble was a favorite of Hindu architects too). But no complaints. Hindus became complacent in defending their country, and this is the necessary price they paid.
jstanotherlurker, this is precisely the point of the author of the “missing temples” article. you will see some ancient temples south and west of ganges valley, like in rajasthan and bundelkhand. but across the entire swath of ganges valley down to bengal, and across entire indus valley one will be hard pressed to find even a single standing ancient temple that is still in use.
these riverine valleys were the stronghold of islamic empires. outside these plains areas lay the realm of hindu kings, who maintained some degree of autonomy and could build temples in their hilly fastness. but in the plains they were all wiped clean.
Acknowledgment is one thing, obsession another. As I’ve commented earlier, this verdict doesn’t strike me as the end of the temple-mosque story. (There are so many more mosques left to be broken!)
But is this the most fruitful use of Indians’ (and Hindus’) attentions? Will all of our problems be solved once the temple is constructed? Only if you believe, like so many in our ruling party do, that pre-Islamic India was an innovative wonderland, a civilization more advanced than anything the world has ever seen since.
Hindus became complacent in defending their country
Yes, I think they spent a lot of time obsessing about temples when they should have been finding out more about the external world, shoring up their military capabilities, figuring out innovations in battle strategies, administering their kingdoms more wisely, educating their people, allowing capable citizens more freedom to rise and innovate, etc.
I don’t know why Lefties act like temple-building and doing other stuff is rivalrous. Both are part of the nation-building project, in their respective arenas.
I’m not a Leftie. The side you are supporting (Modi and bunch) are way to my left when it comes to economic issues and the role of government, though not in social/cultural terms.
You haven’t lived in India and don’t seem to know much about how things work here (occasional visits spent in the extended family cocoon don’t count). These kinds of social/political issues suck all the oxygen out of the public space of discourse, leaving no time to discuss and debate the stuff that really matters for our future. Basically all that matters to our daily lives is left to inept bureaucrats who keep doing things the same way they were done 100 years ago; the leaders at the top (like Modi) have no learning or imagination to analyze and fix things. So they focus on hot button issues that are easy to comprehend and sell.
You have been spoiled by living in a country where institutions are strong and competent enough to manage most of your daily life for you, so you can focus on your personal life and career (you don’t seem to appreciate this, but that’s a different matter).
You’re not describing an Indian issue, you’re describing an issue everywhere. People aren’t technocrats at heart. They use politics for identity and self-expression.
Just look at the sad fate of the YIMBY and Urbanism crowds in America. They have a number of technocratic solutions to improve American cities. Aside from a few Twitter bubbles, nobody cares. They’d rather focus on being woke and hating Trump.
thewarlock
5 years ago
Ancestry.com update
I am 56% North and West Indian
44% South and East Indian
Jai shree ameen. May the union of the Sky Father and River Mother bequeath thee generational glory
That legit doesn’t make sense to me. Without universal suffrage and mass politics, Hindu nationalism would not exist. Universal suffrage meas you elicit voices from everyone…and everyone includes the unwoke dudes who moved in from random UP mofussils!
Trying to pass off the BJP as “anti-democratic” is a cute rhetorical maneuver that may get Dhume accolades at his cocktail parties, but doesn’t really pass muster. They won fair and square, Dhume should get over it.
“– The Modi government does not face criticism because it’s not doing a good enough job of selling its story. I”
Without going through all of Dhume’s article , I thin there is much truth in the above statement. Hindutva is not good at propaganda or intellectual diatribes or using modern political especially leftist rhetoric to it’a advantage. It does not have an ‘intellectual’ wing which can face the external world with sound arguments.
Otherwise it quite democratic both internally and externally. Of course it is reliant on RSS during election times ; OTOH is it much different than the British Labour Party’s reliance on unions to get votes and in fact the labour unions have a lot of say in Labour’s membership and policy making. Even though Tony Blair pruned Labour’s reliance on Trade Unions for his ‘New Labour’ there is still much reliannce.
Islamists in the west and elsewhere have been coached by leftists in using leftist rhetoric for their public relations and they make strange bedfellows. Labour is relying on Pakistani Muslim vote , so he has given a free pass for Islamist propaganda, perhaps Democrats are doing something similar.
To come back to the propaganda capability and reach of Hindutva , there is much to be desired massive work to be done – to begin with Hindutva should less critical of academia and know how to co-opt them.
Hindutva is an genuine though imperfect democratic movement. Indian democracy has been strengthened by BJP.
People like Dhume are pining for undemocratic and elitist Dynastic politics .
I have a lot of skepticism towards Hindu nationalism… but seriously? That article validates every criticism I’ve heard from Hindu nationalists about the liberal Indian intelligentsia.
It reads like the author really does care more about what liberal Westerners think than about other Indians. And the whole “we can’t become more Hindu because liberal democracy is inherently Western” is just about the stupidest argument you could make if you want to convince Hindu nationalists of the necessity of liberal democracy. If you set up Hinduism and liberal democracy as mutually exclusive, which do you think they’re going to pick?
thewarlock
5 years ago
Does anyone use G25? I used this calculator. Distances wise this is what came out.
Watched Asuran today. A slow burning saga of blood feuds in rural Tamilnadu, that periodically bursts into intense action. Overall a gripping drama. Tamil movie purists will not be disappointed either, as there are plenty of scenes with matchets swashing and hands getting chopped and beheaded bodies showing up in the fields. An authenticate Kollywood blood-fest.
Movie is about caste conflict, though filmmakers seem to have gotten cold feet in explicitly stating it so. General euphemisms of “you people” and “we people” have been employed to convey the identity of lower and upper castes.
Dhanush presumably is the “Asuran”, the hero of the Dalits side (or is he schedule tribe?). (Relatively) fair skinned upper caste folks are the villains of the piece.
What I found curious is that usually it is the upper caste non-Brahmin Tamils who are considered the upholders of Dravidian pride. If Dalits are the real Asurs, does that make these flag bears of Dravidian pride “Aryans” ? Ouch!
And the irony over irony is the real Asurs may actually be an Iranian branch of Aryans!
Pakistan has already started pushing Khalistan agenda via Katarpur. It was a big mistake to open the corridor. I can already see it coming. Khalistani brainwashed terrorists aka Jimmy Singh’s posse from Canada will infiltrate India and commit acts of aggression.
Master stroke by Immy. Once again, foolish move by India.
A bunch of factors need to come together to create ideal conditions for the reemergence of extremism. Youth unemployment is a big one, not sure about the ground situation in punjab right now among the castes that form the core of any possible separatist movement. Overall, I think the least of all issues is exposure to extreme ideas. This is the internet age after all, the cat is out of the bag. In the long run, ind-pak reconciliation will be tied to intra-punjab reconciliation, and I could see the effect of these cross-border initiatives as softening pakistani stridency more than anything.
“In the long run, ind-pak reconciliation will be tied to intra-punjab reconciliation,”
This is a wrong assumption which Pakistani and some Indians make. Had it been left to Punjabis there would have been reconciliation long back. But unlike Pakistan , punjabis make 2 percent of pops in India, and dont really matter, outside of Bollywood of course. That’s the reason outside of Indian Punjab no one really cares whether Karatapur works or not. But somehow Pakistan (because of being punjabi heavy) thinks its some sort of big deal in India.
The real reconciliation will not happen unless N-India minus punjab is on board on it. The south and east India has nonchalant to OK-ish view of Pakistan which really leaves the North as the power broker.
I get what you mean wrt the core north being the ultimate arbiters. My angle was less that indian punjabis have the political agency to settle overall bilateral relations, but more that the initial causal factor that will ultimately lead to reconciliation between the gangetic people and pakistan is something happening in punjab first. Is there a reason why UPites wouldn’t follow cues to lower the stakes if there were many (successful) iterations of trust building along the punjab border?
Nope, we won’t.
The Punjabis and Bengalis dont get choose when they partition themselves and then get together just because they feel like doing so.
The bad blood has gone for far too long for N-indians to let it just be a Punjabi affair. Now its our affair too. Just like Kashmir is no longer a Pandit -Muslim affair. So if tomorrow , magically if both punjab become cool, or pandit-muslim somehow miraculously reconcile , it will not fix the Kashmir issue.
Come on bro, you are reading too much into it.
https://theprint.in/national-interest/imran-khans-fantasy-to-revive-khalistan-isnt-happening-because-sikhs-arent-gullible/317951/
Imran Khan’s fantasy to revive Khalistan isn’t happening because Sikhs aren’t gullible
“Imran Khan’s fantasy to revive Khalistan isn’t happening because Sikhs aren’t gullible”
I wouldn’t bank on that.
Gretchen, stop trying to make Khalistan happen. It’s not going to happen.
Get in losers we’re going to Kartarpur.
I was looking at some of the pics, its beautiful though. Also spread wise seems to be larger than golden temple, even though seems like it just houses only the Karatpura Gurdwara and nothing else.
Razib,
This article says Hindu population in Bangladesh is increasing. Any other sources which confirm the same?
https://www.dailypioneer.com/2019/columnists/politics-of-influx.html?utm_source=vuukle&utm_medium=talk_of_town#
Extremely hard to believe.thousands of Hindus emigrate to India every year.
Being a Bangladeshi, i can assure u that hindu population in Bangladesh is increasing. I dont understand why u even care about their population unless you are trolling. Their birth rate is a bit higher these years. But i dont care since i am not into identity politics like that of citizens of our neighbouring countries. 🙂
But i do care when i find the government giving some particular community a lot of unfair advantages and setting some particular community at the top positions of different government and non-government organizations.
There has been incidents where mosques were destroyed for developing roads and highways (AS IT SHOULD BE) but the hindu temples at the same region were not demolished though it was necessary for developing roads and highways.
Plus, there are millions of indian citizens who are working illegally and legally within BD which is having a negative impact on our economy, job sectors and our personal lives.
it is better not to mention all the unfair deals that our government made in favour of india which has negatively affected Bangladesh politically,militarily and economically at different times.
Yes, there has been cases where hindu people migrated to india. Those happened mostly because of economic reasons , not because they were persecuted in anyway. India overally had (and has) a much better economy and better job markets. Also, it is natural for humans to want to be with people who are similar to them.
Now, some indian parties want to make it appear as if hindus are being persecuted which will serve the interests of those parties. And i am pretty sure that there are some efforts to cause some communal problems(like riots) within Bangladesh which will ultimately benefit those indian political parties (the type of parties that support unnecessary and stupid ideas like Akhand Bharat,Hindu Raj etc)
In fact, it is the members of the ruling party Awami league who have in some cases grabbed properties of rural hindus and attacked personal temples for their own economic gains.
I wrote all these things not to criticize or support anyone but because these are facts. No need to start any online comment wars and have a nice day 🙂
I am assuming that this issue of illegal immigration will cease to be an issue in next 20 years, when both b’desh and india will enter an era of falling population. Both countries will probably actively woo young working age adults from across the border to help run the economy.
Wishful thinking?
Very very wishful
Yeah I guess, scorpion bro.
But over population is much better than having very little population.
I know it sounds too wishful, but not beyond the realm of possibility. Think of the demographic landscape 20 years back. Bangladesh was thought of as a dystopian land of exploding population and imploding human conditions. Across the border west bengal was not much different, about which movies like “City of Joy” presented a very depressing, hopeless situation. You don’t hear about such dire conditions any more.
The coming onset of an era of falling human population across the globe is least talked about major issue facing the world.
Both countries have come far in last 20 years, and can go farther in next 20.
and Bengalistani bro, why do you think an overpopulated land is better than an underpopulated land? I don’t get it.
perhaps things have changed a lot in bangladesh in the last decade but an absolute pro-hindu bias does not pass the smell test. i do know that the BNP days were bad for minorities and AL is much more chill.
What do you guys think about shivsena betraying BJP and allying with pro minority parties?
they are going to take the path to failure like all other regional parties when the kichdi government does nothing, setting up for outright BJP majority next time OR they will vote with BJP on most matters anyway so nothing really changes
In the short term to medium term BJP will suffer, since like Bihar it does not have the voter base to withstand a joint NCP-Congress-SS push. Even a joint NCP-Congress would be enough. Also there are no opposition party left which it can ally with.All of them are against BJP already. The BJP also has the issue of not building a state level leader in 5 years , and its tallest leader is still a Brahmin with negligible voter base, and its maratha leaders are no match to Pawar.
But in long term it will benefit, since NCP will eat into SS space as SS will have to cede Hindutva to BJP and marathi manoos voterbase to NCP. Just like Bihar since it will horde the entire opposition space , the BJP will grow the highest.
https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/601726/
Niki going to be fucking hard to beat in 2024 and/or 2028
Classic neocon but with minority/woman status but racially ambiguous enough and pretty enough to palatable even to bigots. She will take more suburban woman than any other Republican and keep classic crowd. She will also peel off a few more minorities. It will be enough to carry swing states. Dems are scared to death and already started hardcore opp research
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/11/opinion/india-ayodhya-temple-ruling.html
Hit piece by Khalistani New York Times writer
“On a recent visit to the northern Indian state of Punjab, I spoke to friends and family — all from the Sikh minority — and I realized that something fundamental had changed. The Sikhs are not a minority threatened by the B.J.P., which claims them as their own, a part of the Hindu fold, but their clear sense of a distinct identity has left them deeply uncomfortable with the vision of a Hindu nation.
Most of the people I spoke to had aligned themselves against the idea of a separate state demanded by armed Sikh insurgents in a violent insurrection that lasted for a decade, from 1983 to 1993. Now they were telling me this was not the country they had staked their faith in, and for the first time they spoke of working to make sure their children would become part of the large Sikh diaspora in Canada, Britain or the United States.
Already, before the R.S.S. vision takes shape, a vast majority of Muslims from Kashmir and elsewhere, the Christians of the northeast and the rest of the country as well as many in the south of India who lay claim to a different Hindu cultural identity from those in northern India, like the Sikhs I spoke to, are making it clear they want no part of it.”
Yeah this guy needs to stop clowning. BJP has widespread support. He can go bootlicking for Jimmy Singh
On one hand you have a principled conservative like Niki Hayley, who even pushed for India to be on the UNSC, when she had little political capital and much to lose, given her precarious position in state politics. On the other, you have Punjabi racial supremacists and Sikh theocrats who are wolves wearing the sheep’s clothing of leftist ideology. The unholy alliance between leftists and islamists has extended fully to extremist Sikhs of the West.
LOL, Did you know his uncle is K.P.S Gill? Like his real uncle, not cousin uncle or something. 😛
Read somewhere that during partition riots, Gill’s father handed him a sword to kill his sister (Haritosh’s mother) and himself, if Muslim groups come after them. Pretty gory stuff.
that’s the sad part. His uncle kept Khalistan insurgency in check. But he continues to betray his family with such hit pieces that only fuel separatism.
Mleccha, Meluhha language of ancient India is defined by Indus Script. See: Monkeys are smbols of geme, jewels offered as tribute to Shalamaneser III as stated in an inscription on Black Obelisk. ratni ‘monkey dressed as a woman” (See picture) rebus: ratnin ‘gems, jewels, wealth’.Tributes to Shalamaneser III include रत्नी ratnī ‘female monkey dressed as woman’ rebus ratnin ‘possessing gifts’ (R̥gveda) ratna ‘jewel, gem’
https://tinyurl.com/y6tyse56 Mirror: https://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2019/08/tributes-to-shalamaneser-iii-includes.html?fbclid=IwAR3bNfrxiNd16REWumol8Elz9ukpz2gSFubZyUgL4jRrbL9VZwqAlgKMeO0
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/blogs/letterfromwashington/kashmir-blues-from-capitol-hill/
Kashmir blues from Capitol Hill
“The first Indian-American lawmaker in the US House of Representatives, Jayapal said she has expressed her concerns over the human rights situation in Kashmir with the Indian government but also publicly and to the media.
Jayapal referred to a report about detention of dozens of children in Kashmir and said detention without charges is unacceptable. She expressed her concerns about religious freedom in India and said that she proposes to bring a bipartisan resolution in the Congress.”
Perhaps she will be an inspiration for Ilhan Omar.
Man, as a race we are experts at breeding traitors.
Disagree with Modi and Shah and BJP all you want, but on a geopolitical level, we back India. No exceptions.
My family are all BJP stalwarts, we still loved India through UPA1/2.
Guess the feeling’s not mutual.
Traitor is a strong word, dont ya think?
Also she is an american first and foremost. If Indian American politicians can use their heritage cynically to praise India to get doners, then she can do the opposite so as to burnish her credentials of being a progressive (“look, i am going against my own people”)
Lol, browns can never be full Americans. She’s brown, no matter how much she would wish it otherwise.
“browns can never be full Americans.”
Couldn’t disagree more.
This is something I have almost exclusively heard from caucasian post modernist social justice warrior woke marxist people say. And even most of them wouldn’t dare say this.
Can more context be given for Jayapal? For example is she a post modernist atheist?
“Jayapal referred to a report about detention of dozens of children in Kashmir and said detention without charges is unacceptable.”
Is she asking clarification about this? Or is she asserting this? I would ask clarification about this allegation too. First I have heard of something like this. What is the period of time a juvenile delinquent can be held without bringing up formal charges? Is this related to custody of said children?
The only way to fix this problem is for India to hire many more judges, public defenders, public attorneys, and police . . . and pay them a lot more. The Indian legal system lacks to resources to execute its responsibilities.
“She expressed her concerns about religious freedom in India and said that she proposes to bring a bipartisan resolution in the Congress.””
India has far more freedom of religion than most European countries. Is Jayapal bringing up a bi-partison resolution about the EU, England, France, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland too?
At least India tries to protect her minority, moderate and atheist muslims from Islamist threats. Can the same be said of Europeans?
At least India is trying to bring common civil law to all Indian muslims. The English and Europeans are going in the opposite direction. They are introducing blasphemy laws (hate speech) to take away the freedom of religion of minority, moderate and atheist European muslims. They are introducing shariah courts to take away the rights and freedoms of minority, moderate and atheist European muslims.
If Jayapal is calling for annulling the first amendment to the Indian constitution (which limits free speech), then I support her. Is Jayapal calling for full freedom of art, thought and speech in India?
Jaypal moved to the US when she was 16 according to wikipedia. So not really american first and foremost, through and through. Moreover, she’s not christian which would tend to accelerate acculturation. Don’t agree that browns can never be American, as chicanos, puerto ricans, and polynesian-hawaians seem to be unambiguously.
Another interesting question is whether US raised ( from early childhood) browns can ever be Indian. There are some edge cases, but I tend to feel its easier for such people to push through and become American than to become Indian. A caveat here is that I think its possible from a US raised Gujju to be considered Gujju in India and so forth, but the pan-Indian identity is rooted in the experience of ones formative years having been passed in this place and under its institutions. A corollary to this is that Indianness is not taken to be an ethnicity above all, unlike our jaati and linguistic identities which we diaspora can claim.
The above impressions are from the perspective of an american born and bred brown person who speaks his ancestral language and has lived for 10+ years in India as an adult, and hardly socializes with expats. Have pretty much had a thousand iterations of this conversation with all sorts of Indian friends and relatives here who have interacted with dozens of my visiting indian-american/ british-asian friends and there is always a sense of difference and umbrage taken to idea that one of us should claim an unqualified indian identity.
as someone who grew up as brown nonxtian in 80s, this is a ridiculous conversation. browns are 10x or more american-viewed than back then. perhaps it will just STOP now. but i doubt that
(i think mass secularization since the 1980s has probably helped)
“So not really american first and foremost, through and through.”
Fascinating.
“Moreover, she’s not christian which would tend to accelerate acculturation.”
Why do you say this?
“Don’t agree that browns can never be American, as chicanos, puerto ricans, and polynesian-hawaians seem to be unambiguously.”
Speaking to the choir.
“Another interesting question is whether US raised ( from early childhood) browns can ever be Indian.”
I think so, but someone needs a lot of awareness. It also helps to be able to speak Hindi and regional languages without an accent.
“There are some edge cases, but I tend to feel its easier for such people to push through and become American than to become Indian.”
Agreed.
“A caveat here is that I think its possible from a US raised Gujju to be considered Gujju in India and so forth, but the pan-Indian identity is rooted in the experience of ones formative years having been passed in this place and under its institutions.”
Partly so. But you did it, right? I think it is possible. Each part of India is very different from every other part of India. This makes becoming a type of cosmopolitan Indian-ish person (albeit American, Canadian, Aussie, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malay, Indonesian, European) easier.
It also depends on one’s social circle and where one lives. India has large spiritual communities–albeit they are a small percentage of the total population.
“A corollary to this is that Indianness is not taken to be an ethnicity above all, unlike our jaati and linguistic identities which we diaspora can claim.”
Perceptive.
“The above impressions are from the perspective of an american born and bred brown person who speaks his ancestral language and has lived for 10+ years in India as an adult, and hardly socializes with expats. Have pretty much had a thousand iterations of this conversation with all sorts of Indian friends and relatives here who have interacted with dozens of my visiting indian-american/ british-asian friends and there is always a sense of difference and umbrage taken to idea that one of us should claim an unqualified indian identity.”
I would agree that most NRIs don’t understand India as well as they think.
I also think we should embrace all our identities. While investing in an Indian start up or doing business development or otherwise doing business in India we don’t have to be thoroughly deshi to be successful.
Razib wrote “(i think mass secularization since the 1980s has probably helped)”
I think becoming American was in some ways easier in the 1980s and 1990s than now. Today the main obstacle are post modernists.
Anan, don’t mean to imply that being christian is a prerequisite to acculturation, just that IF one happens to immigrate in adulthood, all things being equal, joining a mainstream church in america might accelerate things. Ive known at least a few konkani-catholic types who fit this mold and sort of jumped into the us mainstream culture without hesitation. In the case of people who immigrated before primary school age, this isn’t as relevant.
I veer traditional in my idea of americanness in as much as I don’t see it in the leftist creedal sense, so time put in matters. How many generations matter, as do the withering of connections to the old country. By my own measure, as a 2nd-gen with lingering affections for my cousins, i’m not as fully formed an american as the black or scots-irish kids i grew up with, but i’m still more that than indian.
To complicate things further, my co-ethnics in india completely claim me, and i have no hesitation in reciprocating.
Girmit, totally misunderstood you.
Thought you were implying that it is easier for a Hindu (including Buddhist/Jain and Sikhs who choose to cut their hair and shave) to become American.
I think that in general it is very easy to become American. I guess the only obstacle is not to anger the post modernists too much!
“time put in matters.”
Understanding matters more than time put in.
“How many generations matter”
1 generation is enough. 1st generation Americans are as American as native born American. Immigrant Americans anecdotally love and respect America and are more patriotic than native-born Americans.
“as do the withering of connections to the old country.”
This is not necessary in America. To use Razib’s language we can code switch very easily.
“To complicate things further, my co-ethnics in india completely claim me, and i have no hesitation in reciprocating.”
Couldn’t agree more. Many Indians other than my co-ethnics embrace me too! And I them.
The first time I set foot in Indira Gandhi Airport as an adult, I experienced a reckoning: this is a place where people have faces likes mine, where my name doesn’t provoke frowns and consternation, where nobody needs to ask me why I wear a band around my wrist, and so on.
Once I had that reckoning, I realized: India is my home. America is more akin to corporate park + shopping mall of sorts: a fine place to make money and purchase things, but you wouldn’t make your home there.
Obviously, it is not financially or personally feasible for me to leave for India. But that doesn’t mean I have to celebrate America either. It is a society that will always hold my race, faith, and person in disdain (being generous here.)
“Race traitors”? You are coming dangerously close to the language of fascism.
“Indian” is not a race in any case but a nationality.
People should be allowed their principled opinions no matter what their national origin. The detention of children in Kashmir is indefensible and the fact that you react so strongly to someone who brings that up is very disturbing.
If she brings a bipartisan resolution, it would be interesting to see how Indian-american community reacts to it.
She’s based in a safe, deep-Blue district, and no GOP member stands a chance of beating her. You’d need several very-wealthy donors to bankroll a smear-campaign against her, and stake a primary candidate.
From those who are more intimately familiar with India than me, I wanted to ask, how is English doing there? Compared to the past.
What is its position relative to Hindi? Is it still the dominant work and written language of the elite and professional classes? Or are things shifting more to Hindi?
Now that there is much more of a middle class, has that shifted things away from English toward Hindi, as the old elite is numerically crowded out by new people who might not be nearly as comfortable with English?
What do you think the linguistic future is? My own guess is that things will (already are?) shifting decisively toward Hindi in the North, and that English will not have nearly as prominent position in the future. But I haven’t been to India in quite a while.
English is doing better, but not that much better. There is a total cottage industry now of 2 room “English-medium schools” in India specially in small towns and rural areas. But of course the result are similar to Indian govt schools, the less said the better.
The middle class might not be as comfortable in English, but that has led to trying to learn better English rather than shifting to Hindi. No one is shifting to Hindi.
The linguistic future is the position of Hindi as lingua fraca in N-India and English being the language of eduacation/jobs being hardened over time . Mostly other native language in these areas are taking a back seat. Dont go by the whole narrative of “nativist” purge happening against the elite English folks. The new nativist elite is just trying to reach the position of the old one.
Meet the new boss same as the old boss
1. one surprising thing is the diffusion of hindi in south india. this is mainly because of 3 reasons.
a. influx of construction and other manual labour, as south indian labour is big construction sites is practically non existent.
b. influence of bollywood.
c. most indians coming back from gulf can speak some hindi.
2. aversion to hindi among educated tamils has reduced.
bulbul, generally agree with Saurav.
English is generally improving in India. India is also slowly becoming more globalized cosmopolitan.
“Is it still the dominant work and written language of the elite and professional classes?”
Yes.
“Now that there is much more of a middle class, has that shifted things away from English toward Hindi, as the old elite is numerically crowded out by new people who might not be nearly as comfortable with English?”
Yes. Perceptive question. There are many regional english variants in many parts of India. Tamil English. Hinglish. Telegu english. Bengali english. Rajastani english. Gujju english. Bombay english. Etc. These broken english dialects are becoming more popular, including among the middle class.
Indians are a lot more self confident and self assured now. And much more likely to take pride in “Indian english” or their regional variation of broken english.
English words continue to penetrate spoken Indian language dialects too.
Kushinagar mosque blast caused by low grade explosive
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/varanasi/kushinagar-mosque-blast-caused-by-low-grade-explosive/articleshow/72044870.cms
I’m half Indian (Bengali), and have some basic idea of the country. Although I never felt fully a part of it. More like an interested foreigner. Or half so.
I also have a pretty extensive knowledge of Japanese culture, and the interesting thing for me from a language perspective is the similarity between the two.
In Japan, you have something called “keigo”, which basically means proper Japanese. It’s quite different from casual spoken Japanese. And is the province of work and education, mostly.
When I explain the language situation in India to Japanese people, I say that English has the place of keigo. English is the serious language. The language of business and education. Hindi (at least in the North) functions as casual Japanese. And when I explain it this way, Japanese very easily understand. I don’t know how to explain it to Americans, because we don’t have the same formal/informal divide that you find in Japan (and India).
I just wonder if this kind of thing will persist in India. Afterall keigo and regular Japanese are broadly the same language. Not so with English and Hindi. Plus the complicating factors of Bengali or Gujurati or Marathi etc. It just seems so inefficient. You have a business and educational (and governmental?) language that the great majority of people in India understand imperfectly at best.
I’ve met the English-speaking elite from India. But mostly in the USA, or at airports randomly. I just about never met them by chance in India (once in a bookstore). Almost everyone I met in India casually speaks English ranging from not-at-all to a little bit (the biggest group) to broken but confident to almost native.
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/554809-ayodhya-kartarpur-and-jinnah-s-pakistan
Ayodhya, Kartarpur, and Jinnah’s Pakistan
Some gems
A magnificent, progressive political leader, a prescient sage for the ages, and an advocate for his people like no other, Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah’s entire politics was about togetherness, conversation and solutions.
The Convenor and Mobiliser of his people – all his people, regardless of religion. The driver of Jinnah’s politics prior to the 1920s was agency for the colonized.
As the greatest lawyer of his generation, he was able to establish a space for a reasoned, principled and highly sophisticated narrative for all his colonized people,
Despite the reams of anti-Jinnah propaganda that has spewed slanted narratives about events like Direct Action Day in 1946, Jinnah’s legacy (relative to any other South Asian leader) as a bridge builder and an advocate for order and stability is unassailable.
Jinnah’s effort was to try to negotiate, arbitrate and hack away at hatred, division, disorder and instability.
Pakistan’s default handicaps since then have been exploited by the less capable, but equally Hindu First politicians of India since then.
Most Indians who like Jinnah are BJP, RSS, VHP etc.
I also admire Jinnah.
Nehru and the Indian left opposed and criticized Jinnah.
bulbul, excellent comment.
Agree with what you said. India (even back in the 1970s and 1980s to a lesser degree than in the 1940s) had many people who proudly wrote and spoke high quality english. The number of these is shrinking.
Now many Indians take pride in “Indian english” and in the many broken english regional dialects.
Be curious about your experiences in West Bengal. English varies greatly in different parts of Kolkata and different parts of West Bengal outside Kolkata.
Bengali english is different from Bangalore english or Chennai english or Bombay/Mumbai english.
I think the quality of english in West Bengal has deteriorated a lot from the 1940s, and even since the 1970s/1980s. Probably partly because of the rise of Hindi. Hard as it might be to imagine today . . . it use to not be easy to get by with Hindi in many parts of West Bengal until recently. Now many in Kolkatta don’t even speak Bangla (Bengali).
This said, Bangla as a language has an increasing number of english loan words with entire english sentences mixed in.
it looks like a lot of comments are going to straight to ‘trash’. i’ve restored a bunch. will look into it and monitor.
Seems it happened to a comment of mine on the Kayastha post.
Razib,
It is a society that will always hold my race, faith, and person in disdain (being generous here.)
Do you agree with HMB’s assessment above? It doesn’t square with my own impressions, though I was more like a long-term visitor than an immigrant or an American-born desi, so I’m sure I’m missing some part of the American experience that is relevant in his life.
Obviously, it is not financially or personally feasible for me to leave for India.
Why not, HMB? If you are in so much torment in America, you should move. Though I wonder how you can reconcile the following seemingly contradictory facts: (1) America holds you in disdain, and (2) America gives you a livelihood and career that is superior to what India can give you (that’s what you are saying, right?)
HM and i are very distinct people with different personalities.
i’m aware i’m superior to people i meet 🙂 even if they disdained me, do you think i would care? take what is yours. don’t beg for acceptance.
some people will be embittered by slights or perceive marginalization. many ‘working-class’ whites feel this. and they are right to, since many do look down on them. these people are white christians to the soil born, but they feel out of place. so i submit it’s not really as much about being marginalized as marginalizing yourself.
hopefully HM will be in a financial position to move back to india someday if that makes him happy. i am not particularly loyal to the USA now as i am a ‘declinist’. but if there is any country i am loyal to, and that i do fit in, this is it.
We have some property in Noida already, I’ll probably settle there for my retirement. In the meantime, let’s sort out the air pollution stuff hahaha.
The same way I reconcile the following facts:
1) China’s precipitous economic rise marks the greatest industrialization event in human history, and warrants many accolades. The Chinese accomplished in a generation what most societies cannot do in 3. Or ever.
2) China is probably the one country on Earth in which a comparison to Nazi Germany is somewhat apropos.
—
You can separate the bad from the good. Similarly, I like that America has lots of money, a relative lack of air pollution, and nice national parks everywhere (I like hiking). I dislike that America’s people are obese, provincial sybarites.
“obese, provincial sybarites”
Perceptive. (I am thinking of a series of articles on American decline.)
H. M. Brough, America is in accelerating decline. If we don’t help our fellow Americans, then who will?
You are right that it is easier to live in India and retire in India. But that does not mean we should love and respect America any less.
When others are jealous of us, racist towards us, white supremacist towards us (whatever that means), nazi towards us, fascist towards us, hegemonic towards us, exploitative towards us, oppressive towards us, patriarchal towards us, imperialist colonialist towards us, Islamaphobic towards us (whatever that means), rude towards us, mean towards us, weird/odd towards us don’t they need our love, respect and help most? If we don’t help them, then who will?
+++++++++++++
Completely agree with you regarding China. The ugly jealous xenophobic global backlash against China (mostly but not exclusively from the post modernist) is sad to see.
From those who are more intimately familiar with India than me, I wanted to ask, how is English doing there? Compared to the past.
What is its position relative to Hindi? Is it still the dominant work and written language of the elite and professional classes? Or are things shifting more to Hindi?
Everyone in the middle class and above speaks a curious mix of English and Hindi these days (I slip into that too unconsciously). People can start a sentence in English and end in Hindi, and vice versa. Or speak one sentence in English and the next in Hindi within a conversation. People don’t pay much attention to grammatical correctness, and often string a bunch of English words into a Hindi-like language structure. People use English words in contexts that English-speakers may not understand (applies to written Indian English too).
I don’t know what this process is. Is it creolization? Linguists here can shed more light. But a certain form (or subset) of English has become part of the Indian canon, and is not considered foreign at this point even by rabid Hindutva ideologues, regardless of what the politicians say.
Do you know of any unpublished data or an ancient dna study in progress on the Neolithic and PPN period of Northern Mesopotamia? With Northern Mesopotamia I mean South-Eastern Turkey, Northern Iraq and Northern Syria.
Some articles on Ayodhya judgement
https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/ayodhya-verdict-supreme-court-lord-ram-ramjanmabhoomi-temple-babri-6113594/lite/?__twitter_impression=true
Ayodhya verdict opens door for claims based on community identity, construction of faith
https://theprint.in/opinion/ayodhya-verdict-has-exposed-the-real-problem-of-indian-secularism/320301/
Ayodhya verdict made one thing clear. This is the problem with Indian secularism today
https://openthemagazine.com/cover-stories/where-did-the-temples-go/
Where Did the Temples Go?
“But in the north, it is impossible to find any temple that is older than 200 years.”
Stunning. But true.
Even a supposedly liberal emperor like Shah-Jehan would not allow any new temple to come up his domains, and actively demolish it if someone attempted to build a temple. And he was 3-quarters Indian by blood! So much for the shared Ganga-Jamani Tehzeeb.
Even in its ruin, Martand sun temple looks so majestic. It is enough to convince any one what *could have* existed in the absence of Islamic “golden age” in India.
It is almost a certainty that a “Hindu” Taj Mahal would have come up in India had India been ruled by Hindus in medieval period. (Marble was a favorite of Hindu architects too). But no complaints. Hindus became complacent in defending their country, and this is the necessary price they paid.
Yes, and in areas that were relatively shielded from Islamist iconoclasm, some interesting temples did come up even as late as the 15th century.
Check out the Ranakpur Jain temple in Rajasthan:
https://www.google.com/search?q=ranakpur+jain+temple+interiors&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS758US758&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcpZmE6uzlAhVOJzQIHWSuBZEQ_AUIEigB&biw=1745&bih=852&dpr=1.1#imgrc=rHi1j-_5YxeUGM:
This was built by a merchant; imagine what kings could have (and probably did before Muslim invasions)..
jstanotherlurker, this is precisely the point of the author of the “missing temples” article. you will see some ancient temples south and west of ganges valley, like in rajasthan and bundelkhand. but across the entire swath of ganges valley down to bengal, and across entire indus valley one will be hard pressed to find even a single standing ancient temple that is still in use.
these riverine valleys were the stronghold of islamic empires. outside these plains areas lay the realm of hindu kings, who maintained some degree of autonomy and could build temples in their hilly fastness. but in the plains they were all wiped clean.
Acknowledgment is one thing, obsession another. As I’ve commented earlier, this verdict doesn’t strike me as the end of the temple-mosque story. (There are so many more mosques left to be broken!)
But is this the most fruitful use of Indians’ (and Hindus’) attentions? Will all of our problems be solved once the temple is constructed? Only if you believe, like so many in our ruling party do, that pre-Islamic India was an innovative wonderland, a civilization more advanced than anything the world has ever seen since.
Hindus became complacent in defending their country
Yes, I think they spent a lot of time obsessing about temples when they should have been finding out more about the external world, shoring up their military capabilities, figuring out innovations in battle strategies, administering their kingdoms more wisely, educating their people, allowing capable citizens more freedom to rise and innovate, etc.
I don’t know why Lefties act like temple-building and doing other stuff is rivalrous. Both are part of the nation-building project, in their respective arenas.
I’m not a Leftie. The side you are supporting (Modi and bunch) are way to my left when it comes to economic issues and the role of government, though not in social/cultural terms.
You haven’t lived in India and don’t seem to know much about how things work here (occasional visits spent in the extended family cocoon don’t count). These kinds of social/political issues suck all the oxygen out of the public space of discourse, leaving no time to discuss and debate the stuff that really matters for our future. Basically all that matters to our daily lives is left to inept bureaucrats who keep doing things the same way they were done 100 years ago; the leaders at the top (like Modi) have no learning or imagination to analyze and fix things. So they focus on hot button issues that are easy to comprehend and sell.
You have been spoiled by living in a country where institutions are strong and competent enough to manage most of your daily life for you, so you can focus on your personal life and career (you don’t seem to appreciate this, but that’s a different matter).
You’re not describing an Indian issue, you’re describing an issue everywhere. People aren’t technocrats at heart. They use politics for identity and self-expression.
Just look at the sad fate of the YIMBY and Urbanism crowds in America. They have a number of technocratic solutions to improve American cities. Aside from a few Twitter bubbles, nobody cares. They’d rather focus on being woke and hating Trump.
Ancestry.com update
I am 56% North and West Indian
44% South and East Indian
Jai shree ameen. May the union of the Sky Father and River Mother bequeath thee generational glory
Also a good video for Milan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=572u3bz-RFw
A Serb singing in Arabic, showcasing his biologically programmed plurality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGbL4LlrcIs
Hinduism fastest growing religion in Russia, according to this video. Of course, I have not fact checked this whatsoever.
Growth rate is usually measured by % growth. If you start with 2 Hindus and they convert 4 of their friends, you have 200% growth rate.
I don’t think it’s all that telling a figure for very small minorities.
Sadanand Dhume articulates it much better than I was able to a few days ago: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/toi-edit-page/dont-shoot-the-messenger-to-safeguard-its-global-image-india-doesnt-need-better-messaging-it-needs-better-policies/
– The Modi government does not face criticism because it’s not doing a good enough job of selling its story. It faces criticism because it doesn’t have a good story to sell.
– At a deeper level, for India the process of cultural revival represented by Hindu nationalism may also represent a turning away from ideas that have shaped the modern world.
That legit doesn’t make sense to me. Without universal suffrage and mass politics, Hindu nationalism would not exist. Universal suffrage meas you elicit voices from everyone…and everyone includes the unwoke dudes who moved in from random UP mofussils!
Trying to pass off the BJP as “anti-democratic” is a cute rhetorical maneuver that may get Dhume accolades at his cocktail parties, but doesn’t really pass muster. They won fair and square, Dhume should get over it.
“– The Modi government does not face criticism because it’s not doing a good enough job of selling its story. I”
Without going through all of Dhume’s article , I thin there is much truth in the above statement. Hindutva is not good at propaganda or intellectual diatribes or using modern political especially leftist rhetoric to it’a advantage. It does not have an ‘intellectual’ wing which can face the external world with sound arguments.
Otherwise it quite democratic both internally and externally. Of course it is reliant on RSS during election times ; OTOH is it much different than the British Labour Party’s reliance on unions to get votes and in fact the labour unions have a lot of say in Labour’s membership and policy making. Even though Tony Blair pruned Labour’s reliance on Trade Unions for his ‘New Labour’ there is still much reliannce.
Islamists in the west and elsewhere have been coached by leftists in using leftist rhetoric for their public relations and they make strange bedfellows. Labour is relying on Pakistani Muslim vote , so he has given a free pass for Islamist propaganda, perhaps Democrats are doing something similar.
To come back to the propaganda capability and reach of Hindutva , there is much to be desired massive work to be done – to begin with Hindutva should less critical of academia and know how to co-opt them.
Hindutva is an genuine though imperfect democratic movement. Indian democracy has been strengthened by BJP.
People like Dhume are pining for undemocratic and elitist Dynastic politics .
I have a lot of skepticism towards Hindu nationalism… but seriously? That article validates every criticism I’ve heard from Hindu nationalists about the liberal Indian intelligentsia.
It reads like the author really does care more about what liberal Westerners think than about other Indians. And the whole “we can’t become more Hindu because liberal democracy is inherently Western” is just about the stupidest argument you could make if you want to convince Hindu nationalists of the necessity of liberal democracy. If you set up Hinduism and liberal democracy as mutually exclusive, which do you think they’re going to pick?
Does anyone use G25? I used this calculator. Distances wise this is what came out.
https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/
Averages from here:
https://justpaste.it/459dt
0.02829668 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu
0.02866288 Iyer
0.03166273 Gujarati
0.03221895 Kshatriya
0.03529841 Punjabi_Lahore
0.03793804 Kol
0.03872670 Brahmin_West_Bengal
0.04128814 Kanjar
0.04652143 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
0.04670603 Velamas
0.05310946 Kamboj_o
0.05443638 Brahmin_Gujarat
0.05513042 Dharkar
0.06577446 Dusadh
0.06734463 Yadava
0.06774379 Gujar_India
0.06778602 Uttar_Pradesh
0.07075400 Kurumba
0.07118506 Maratha
0.07222586 Piramalai
0.07761529 Chamar
0.07785351 Bengali_Bangladesh
0.07817490 Gupta
0.08885336 Gujar_Pakistan
0.08939254 Chenchu
Watched Asuran today. A slow burning saga of blood feuds in rural Tamilnadu, that periodically bursts into intense action. Overall a gripping drama. Tamil movie purists will not be disappointed either, as there are plenty of scenes with matchets swashing and hands getting chopped and beheaded bodies showing up in the fields. An authenticate Kollywood blood-fest.
Movie is about caste conflict, though filmmakers seem to have gotten cold feet in explicitly stating it so. General euphemisms of “you people” and “we people” have been employed to convey the identity of lower and upper castes.
Dhanush presumably is the “Asuran”, the hero of the Dalits side (or is he schedule tribe?). (Relatively) fair skinned upper caste folks are the villains of the piece.
What I found curious is that usually it is the upper caste non-Brahmin Tamils who are considered the upholders of Dravidian pride. If Dalits are the real Asurs, does that make these flag bears of Dravidian pride “Aryans” ? Ouch!
And the irony over irony is the real Asurs may actually be an Iranian branch of Aryans!