Some stuff from my Substack: Genetic history with Chinese characteristics – How two Bronze-Age tribes became the world’s 1.3 billion Han (without even changing much genetically) and Venerable Ancestors: untangling the Chinese people’s hybrid Pleistocene origins origins – More than 40,000 years of human evolution in East Asia. I’ve written more about India because it’s super genetically variable, unlike China. But China has more written history.
Also, if anyone wants to know what I’ve been doing with most of my time the last few years, I founded a tech startup, GenRAIT.
Controversial opinion – the origins of a religiously/cleanliness associated hierarchy in South Asia began with the West Siberian Hunter Gatherer component in the IVC.
Their religious rites facilitated the easy imposition of later Bronze Age Steppe men on an existing system, resulting in priestly groups having bigger steppe ancestry.
I suspect the “western siberian hunter gatherer” component is a result of using an ANE deficient Iran proxy for the Iran component in South Asian ancestry. As in, it’s not actually there.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-notifies-pakistan-on-modification-of-indus-waters-treaty/article66438780.ece
‘India notifies Pakistan on ‘modification’ of Indus Waters Treaty’
Good Modi govt is righting some wrongs of the initial Nehru years
https://twitter.com/ndtv/status/1618870051851083776
‘”I am proud that Tamil is the oldest language in the world”: PM Modi at #ParikshaPeCharcha’
Modi twerking hard for that elusive Tamil vote. Hope it doesn’t end with him the way it did for Rajiv Gandhi
Not a fan of the italian maid porker but i like his brother. I admire his passion for population control. R.I.P Sanjay, you insane bastard.
‘”I am proud that Tamil is the oldest language in the world”: PM Modi at #ParikshaPeCharcha’
BJP loves Tamil so much that it would much rather spend 600 crores promoting a dead language instead of Tamil lmao
Modi twerking hard for that elusive Tamil vote. Hope it doesn’t end with him the way it did for Rajiv Gandhi
Ha ha good one
I keep listening to anand ranganathan, sai deepak, and many on the rightwing. For them, islam is the worst thing ever and the biggest danger ever. For me, its the west and christianity.
I see things in terms of rate of change and volatility and ability to make laws and abuse the system and escape immune reaction.
By all measures, it is more probable to survive islam for longer time than christianity. I always say this, kalash survived, yazidis survived, hindus in bali survived, zoroastrians survived, where as in west, no other religious group survived,Even jews were persecuted. And if one notices, rate of change of christianity in last 120 yrs in India, it has been very rapid and fast than christianity. Shouldnt one focus on the fast changing thing than the older slower to change thing?/ Partition and antics of pakistan changed the brains of everyone. It also is the case that perhaps rightwing are bad at maths, they see numbers as bigger threat than rate of change. Also politically muslims are not the ones opposing bjp, it is mostly colonized idiots which is again a product of west. The people opposing are not inspired by islam, but by west. I wonder what gaurav has to say about this. can someone ping him on this question?
You should read Razib’s stuff on Christianity. He’s written a lot. It’s definitely not what you seem to think.
Vijay (old pal, commentor?)
You should read Razib’s stuff on Christianity. He’s written a lot. It’s definitely not what you seem to think.
Its not Christianity per se these days, it is what it has metastasized into; Human Right and Democracy and by extension Samantha Power (and Hillary’s) R2P, Right to Protect. Thats the doctrine they used to bomb Libya back to the Stone Age.
R2P, Human Right and Democracy are just regurgitating Christian Evangelism in a new garb. i.e. the right to convert the pagans and savages.
Christianity cannot be separated from colonialism , neo colonialism , imperialism and poor survival of other religious traditions , whatever its positives might have been.
To me, one of its biggest sin is that it destroyed greeco roman civilization and has abused its ideas to boost itself. Talk of cultural appropriation of the worst kind. And because it is zealous, its counter part is required to also become zealous as well . The fact christians knock the door to convert makes it necessary for others to also do so, repeatedly, endlessly, the competition is endless and forever. Add volatility to it and you will notice zealous movements come about again and again. Protestantism, marxist violence, hitler , now wokeism etc. Often to confront zealotry, other side also has to become so as well because the competition is relentless and forever. co existence is something that is much harder with Christianity than others. Hence i use the term, “rate of change”. christianity destroys relatively stable ecology and forces other side to arm themselves too. And it is in the architecture of christianity to try to use these movements among other things like states, laws etc to further itself.
Mimetic warfare of christianity against all others as explained here.
” Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air.No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.”
What do you think the consequences of a world take over ideology shall be on others?.
There are statistical consequences to certain ideas.
https://www.firstpost.com/entertainment/pathaan-movie-review-shah-rukh-khan-zips-around-a-slick-addictive-version-of-the-akshay-kumar-universe-12046272.html
‘Instead, right at the start, Pathaan informs us of the deshbhakt protagonist’s Muslim identity without appearing to emphasise it, panders to a populist notion of patriotism that identifies Hindi with the desh (speak to me in Hindi, the hero tells his captors more than once, kyunki Arbi mein tumhe gaali dene mein voh mazaa nahin hai), and an important character assures us that the evil Pakistani is a rogue agent who does not have official sanction for his attack on India.
All bases have been covered. All is well with the world. And we can all go home feeling assured that at least an SRK film did not do to India’s minorities what the rest of Bollywood is doing. Umm. Correct?’
LOL, looks like Pathaan took the liberals for a ride (and their money). Soon SRK will be dancing in some Adani/Ambani wedding, and accepting awards from Modi.
And then we will be back to square 1.
One thing i liked about brownpundits is that no one fell into trap of movies. No one discusses movies here. It means there is a minimum intelligent baseline here. Also, please watch avatar: way of the water please, please, please. The technology of what it took to make it is incredible.
i’m a philistine 🙂
zach latif was much more into Bollywood pop culture stuff. but since he left we have a deficit of that
I am dunking on myself mostly, 14 yrs back i abandoned my pursuit of phd as i realized i would not be a great physicist and ended up depressed only to once again become depressed realizing i was stupid to not take the consolation prize of atleast getting the phd and hence in pain took to twitter, movies, entertainment, pop culture, history , politics etc. one should not compare is now my motto. My friends aimed for something realistic and got it though and i am happy for them. Truly, the path to shitposting comes from failing at something.
James Cameroon is a great director, his stories are stupid but he transports you into an another beautiful world in an immersive way. It takes a genius to do that. India too now has its own small budget james cameroon in rajamouli working within the constraints of Indian cinema and its idiosyncrasies . My earliest recollection of rajamouli is that his works were trash and then one day i saw magadheera, and for a brief moment i saw something no Indian cinema maker could put on such kind of visual action. Others behind me were snickering that it was copied from hollywood, it wasnt, it was something incredible that one was watching an Indian do, the first Indian. Fast forward 14 yrs and james cameroon tells him, “lets talk if you want to work here “.
I guess his view of life was to do the shit that is needed to survive so that he could do what he wanted later in life. India ofcourse has better film makers than him, but none of them can put on a visual spectacle to capture peoples attention to get them to see Indian cinema. With him though, some in hollywood have been watching him from sometime and his recent RRR on netflix got him much more attention. He is not the best film maker in India though, that is mani ratnam but he is the guy who can put on a visual spectacle to capture peoples attention. Attention that once caught can be directed towards the other good products in the country.
Entertainment should be one area where it should be possible to compete with Hollywood on, earn some money that way. Apart from hollywood, the only other thing that sold at the world level was kungfu and kungfu comedy. I hope we earn some $$$ without going woke. It would be a problem for India to earn that way if we were going the china way.
But Modi/rss for all practical purposes have shown that they have no aim at the moment of taking India on the china way.It does piss people off that they are getting accused of the very thing they just dont seem to do. Both ,The moderates are pissed off at the propaganda, the hardliners are pissed off that they arent really hard. VIshwagurus gonna Vishwaguru!!!.
I think movies are out of favor for most millenial males. US movie ticket sales have been continuously declining now for 20 years, even though the overall population and GDP per capita have grown significantly.
I watch anime mainly
Ever since BJP has formed the government hindi is being forced down upon us. I care about the unity of India but Hindi imposition has to stop once and for all.
Yup, no to language imposition. Also no to this nautanki:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9wpEEJ8NAI
PM Modi at the Banaras Hindu University for inauguration of Kashi-Tamil Sangamam
—
Kannadas vote for BJP, why are they not getting any attention? Why no Kannada or Marathi in the CCS?
Going by the recent polls Kannada and Marathi wont vote for BJP.
We may soon see Bangalore-Delhi and Mumbai-Delhi Sangam 🙂
Venkat,
Is there a particular instance(s) that you want to highlight?
Gunga din dhume in action tying adani with modi.
https://mobile.twitter.com/dhume/status/1619110990137753602.
Counter point in Adani matter
https://m.economictimes.com/news/company/corporate-trends/view-what-really-worries-indians-about-adanis-empire/articleshow/97361769.cms?utm_source%3Dtwitter_web%26utm_medium%3Dsocial%26utm_campaign%3Dsocialsharebuttons
I don’t care personally about particular individuals but in this case the aim seems to hurt the infra and industrial capacity of India.
Hopefully we have redundancy and resiliency built against such attacks.
The guy who wrote the counter view, Mihir Sharma, is perhaps one of the few writers i take seriously in Indian business. Though he is anti BJP, he doesn’t let his ideology cloud his writing. For the most part.
One good thing is that he is a bona fide capitalist, unlike commies (from certain ethnicities) who cosplay as capitalist in IMF or Chicago business Schools.
Why do UK Pakistanis and Bangladeshis have more diabetes than UK Indians? Socioeconomics?
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Prevalence-of-diagnosed-diabetes-by-ethnic-group-in-the-UK-16-Blue-bar-men-orange_fig2_6937525
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetes_in_India
Gujarat does decently OK on diabetes. Punjab and South worst. Bihar and Rajasthan better. Maybe some low calorie malnutrition component.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/xhjppw/obesity_rate_in_india/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Lines up well with diabetes map
On the Adani thing: I don’t think his empire will collapse but right to ask tough questions on nepotism wrt Modi govt.
None of the Australian banks wanted to underwrite his coalmines in Australia, but SBI did. LIC has been investing more and more money his way. Even now they are throwing in cash as the stock declines. He got the Dharavi deal in Mumbai on the cheap. Clearly, his political connections have a lot to do with his business success and that’s usually not a good sign for a society.
As Arvind Subramanian has said, those who defend the monopolies of Adani and Ambani often point to the Chaebols in South Korea as a model to emulate. But the difference is that they were focused on exports, so them getting rich had the downstream effect of improving the country’s competitiveness.
By contrast, Adani and Ambani mostly own domestic-centric assets like ports, infra, energy and telecom. Sure, Ambani has refineries, which export a lot, but in an age where EVs are rapidly growing, that has a clear sunset and will come faster than most expect.
‘As Arvind Subramanian has said,’
India’s curse is that it has more per capita economists than GDP per capita
A lot of the success of Japanese and South Korean keiretsu and chaebols cam be attributed to the fact that America essentially opened its markets to these countries without demanding the same from them, just to get these countries to develop. India won’t get that kind of access to any major developed country.
I am sure the ambani petroleum exports have come in handy in terms of forex reserves for IN and end customers in west, who are treating RU as an untouchable. Adani is also investing in overseas assets viz. AU coal mines and Haifa port. It is not realistic to expect IN to follow SK path exactly. Decades of home grown socialism + western sponsored ngos have given us first world woke politics while ensuring we have 3rd world economy. Given the ever increasing demands for welfare, I don’t see any other realistic options to this “National Champions” approach to the rapid build out and management of our key infra assets. In some ways, Adani could be the replacement for ILFS. My only concern is Adani also ending up the ILFS way.
Plus there is the “meritocratic “ PLI approach. Even there the people risking their money are being vilified by western shills and keyboard warriors like us.
“He got the Dharavi deal in Mumbai on the cheap.”
Was the Dharavai deal actually cheap? From what I read it was more than twice as high as the next largest bid and seemed quite a reasonable amount given the difficulties in redeveloping such a slum.
You can go further back and look at the so called “Robber Barons” of the USA’s “Gilded Age” that transformed America from a backwater dump at the end of the civil war to the richest most industrialized country in the world at the beginning of the 20th century. These kind of industrialist are actually quite common and maybe even useful for counties at India’s stage of development if they build productive assets instead of just living off of government largess.
Maybe India needs its own Andrew Carnegie, Cornelius Vanderbilt or John D. Rockefeller.
No one understands that Rai. Everyone wants their clean billionaires
@Rai
The USA was already the richest country in the western world, pulling even with, and surpassing, the UK in population and GDP around 1860. Only China, with its vastly larger population possibly still had the highest GDP at the time.
The shift of economic power to the americas was anticipated at least a generation before that. Perhaps it was thought that industrious people create rich societies against all odds and there was something obvious about the destiny of the anglo diaspora.
Small differences in character of the average person in the labor force compounds many times and manifest as GDP/ per capita multiples of 20x between Europeans and South Asians. Makes one doubt if being somewhat conciliatory towards would-be robber barons is a type of wisdom.
Girmit@
I am not discounting the human agency of the Anglo diaspora but they did get to create a virtual blank slate in NA and AU, much to the detriment of native Americans and aboriginal people.
Even today big tech and defense companies are de facto aligned with USG.
If you are saying that IN needs better “robber barons “ then I agree. But I suspect the people complaining about adani would not stop till IN and would be barons toe the neo-liberal line.
https://twitter.com/MIAuniverse/status/1618680282626011138
‘The people who connect all 3 oldest civilisation of Egypt, Mesopotamia and India valley are the Tamils.
The fact is buried , due to India’s own prejudice when they embrace this , things will change. Hopefully they haven’t destroyed everyone’s DNA already.’
Saurav, I guess you did not see the handle of the post.
MIA aka Maya Mathangi Arulpragasam, daughter of a Tamil Terrorist.
The only very South South Asian and who looks it (dark, skinny, and I love that look) who became big. So I give her big pass.
I saw her at Summer Stage, Central Park, NY and Mermaid Parade, Coney Island, NY around 2005 (I think) just as she was becoming well known. Free concerts. I was living with some budding artists (all below 25, I was 46) many blocks away from middle of hipster Williamsburg. I was paying USD 500 to have a basement room with attached toilet. It was great. I was earning enough to save (to be back in SL), and every other evening bring bottles of wine/beer to share with all.
One (or two) of the housemates said there is this Sri Lankan woman who is going to be at the Mermaid Parade and Summer Stage (and Knitting Factory). Also gave me a page from the Village Voice. So ended at both. Somehow did not do Knitting Factory. Maybe because there was an entrance fee
Bottom line, M.I.A. cant articulate what if any oppression the Tamils have had, just a lot of “Agitprop Pop” music. The music is reasonably good, but M.I.A. is probably a milquetoast messenger advocating war for moral fags.
Contrasted to Sinéad O’Connor’s heartfelt songs about the the oppression of the Irish by the English, M.I.A seems sadly lacking. To the contrary of what little political message she sings, she has sold out and joined the establishment. i.e. she
“speaks about terrorism and Sri Lankan politics and all the while lives in a fancy house in a tony neighborhood with her billionaire husband
https://sbarrkum.blogspot.com/2012/02/mia-with-maddona-at-superbowl.html
“moralfags”
lmao Sbarrkum man I did not expect you to use such modern web lingo hahhaha
nah that’s interesting man
lmao Sbarrkum man I did not expect you to use such modern web lingo hahhaha
You would be surprised, I have lived in the ghetto, (harlem, South Bronx) but never used the lingo. Takes a lot of push to get me to use even fuxxer. I blend in with African Americans (or white American) without the need to use street slang.
Same with Sinhala. I dont talk down, have to be courteous specially to the less well off. Manners taught by my parents, specially my mother. Dont bargain, if you cant pay walk away.
I can walk, go to bars in Harlem and Bronx and talk nice. Most semi smart will know I am street savvy. It is about confidence and being yourself.
phyeco
pass on skin color
I did for Obama, till he (and Hilary) bombed Libya
Obama, one of the biggest hypocrites.
we should not give a pass on skin color.
The “sem2sem” bs from that Indian Rajasthani/Punjabi ‘blah’ or whatever the fuck he was was just exhausting, and inane.
Dude flip-flopped like crazy, and couldn’t handle the historical facts and records. Hindutvas make up their own history to cope lmao we IZNT the sem2sem, guy.
Historical facts and records about how there were no Hindus in Bengal and only Buddhists? Lmao.
At least be original and come up with your own unique bs, entertain us. Heard this one a million times from our other neighbour.
Yes historical evidence showing how bangladesh was Buddhist originally with Hindu influence only appearing in the 12th century and even then not changing much conaidering Bangladesh East Bengal was 75% Muslim even before Partition lmao
Actually hilarious seeing indians sem2seming when the differences are so fucking huge.
Lmao, I have zero interest in “sem2sem”.
I’ll talk about it the day Indians open up 100s of “PAK/BAN cuisine” restaurants around the world.
If anything, IMO India should cut all ties and seal both borders completely. Don’t want anything to do with either countries. Modi is far too soft.
Throughout most of the country, BAN is heavily looked down upon (especially for the last 3-4 years), because it’s seen as nothing but a source of illegal immigrants.
And I wonder if many of the “aman ki asha” types in India (outside of Punjab/Haryana) would even exist if Hindi and Urdu weren’t mutually intelligible.
The rate of ‘aman ki asha’ tweets per month from across the border seems to have gone up-
https://twitter.com/AmanNasirX/status/1618988236306800645?s=20&t=lXXIANTgpjjCDA-ybL5e5Q
@IsThisReal “I’ll talk about it the day Indians open up 100s of “PAK/BAN cuisine” restaurants around the world.”
By the way, why do ‘Indian’ restaurants abroad serve mainly Muslim food? Isn’t Hindu food marketable?
Do the people in West know that all the tikkas and kababs and tandooris they eat in Indian restaurants get people killed back in India?
LoL @Pak-India groceries and Pak-India restaurants. When will Pakistanis stop this appropriation?
“The rate of ‘aman ki asha’ tweets per month from across the border seems to have gone up
https://twitter.com/AmanNasirX/status/1618988236306800645?s=20&t=lXXIANTgpjjCDA-ybL5e5Q”
Pakistanis churn out 100 podcasts/week. Always some dumb guy all decked up in the ek-jodi good clothes they have pretending to know a lot… sounding all serious… This pretentiousness is a feature of how Pakistanis talk in Urdu.
badi-badi baatein, vada-pav khate… Dhanda aise nai chalta boss.
Pakistanis don’t get the game yet. Thousands of Indians with PhDs in Physics, Math, Biochem,… thought they will win Nobel prizes, yet all we manage to do is get R1 tenure . Our best of the best CS folks were expected to make search engines, yet all we manage to do is work as L8 in Google dreaming of becoming a Principal one day…
World is complicated, Indian business environment is even more complicated. Bangalore is no Silicon Valley. Kunal Shahs of Bangalore will steal all Pakistani entrepreneur’s ideas and kick them out like he does with naive Indians. Some VC out of Bangalore will leak their balance sheet. This is not a game Pakistanis can learn from India, IF they manage to do it, it will be by themselves. Like we Indians can’t make NVIDIA or Tencent (yet), Pakistanis can’t make Infosys (yet). There is a lot that happens beneath the surface.
At the end of the day money is trust and work quantified. Trust takes time to build.
Astaghfirullah! badi behaya quom hai! humari shaadi ki rasmein chura lein, khana churaya, humara dance aur music bhi appropriate kar liya:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhHDytF53uM
Pakistani Wedding dance Bollywood song performance
Karo na apna phuddu Pakistani nikah ceremony, … ahem nikah seminar.
Vegetarian food is not marketable in the west. It’s not vegan so hippies avoid it and it doesn’t have meat so everyone else skips it.
The Pakistani restuarants here usually don’t use the Indian. The ones that still do are mostly run by Indian Muslims.. basically. N. Indian Muslim diet and our diet is quite similar so it doesn’t matter.
LOL than be like the rest of your countrymen and “look down on us” and leave us out of your Hindutva delusions. You don’t seem to be capable of that, neither do your countrymen. They “look down” on us but on the same breath want us to be the sem2sem and part of “muh Greater india” bs “we are da same brozzer!!” you guys are seriously obsessed too ngl
Just leave us out of it, thanks. You read what Razib said about what Bangladeshi peasants think about your whole “muh civilizational brotherhood” bs, right? They don’t agree lol
“Vegetarian … it.”
American Vegan food is trash.
Saale 15 dollar ka ghaans-phuns khilate hain. Argulla apni mariyal bhains ko na khilaun main…
I have these Chinese American, Valley-girl, yoga-vegan, colleagues who sometime make us eat at Sweet Green restaurant chain,🤢. I do it just to go with the group. But 🤮, $15 down the gutter. Bread butter tastes better.
Some really committed European vegan restaurants do delight. The best I have had ever was: https://thefoodtemple.com/ in Lisbon, many excellent ones in the lower countries. Brilliant people these European hippie vegan chefs, Indian vegetarians should learn from them rather than putting ghee/cumin/onion/inger-garlic/garam-masala in everything.
“The Pakistani restuarants … similar so it doesn’t matter.”
Nope, you are wrong. It is always Pakistanis. I get my groceries from such places, eat at such places. I know what I am talking about.
https://theprint.in/national-interest/return-of-the-muslim-from-modi-sermon-to-pathaan-to-bharat-jodo-yatra/1339143/
‘ They now believe that politically they have now solidified their electoral proposition. Hindus are not going to be divided again until at least 2024. Most of the key Hindutva/RSS objectives have been achieved.
All key temples are being renovated and, at least for visibility, being reclaimed. Ujjain and Varanasi are done, Mathura is on the way. The acceptance of this Hinduness is so wide that so many of the tableaux on Republic Day feature Hindu gods and goddesses. Even that of Jammu and Kashmir with Amarnath. Is there still any mileage to be gained from this constant targeting of Muslims?
Especially so at a time when India has just stepped into its G-20 presidency, which Modi is using as his larger political proposition to his voter base: Leadership of the world. It’s the wrong time, then, to light new fires of popular protest or global liberal criticism, or provoke terror attacks. He and his party now need social calm, at least till the summer of 2024.
That may be minimalistic, but it’s still a logical explanation for this change.
I must go get food now, I dont have anything besides milk orange juice and tortillas in the fridge…
I just dont know if I should get some ramen from the convenience store or get something from Subways………
Really hard choice but I think I’ll go with the ramen tbh a bit cheaper and tomorrow(Saturday btw) I usually order from elsewhere anyways so might as well save some money now
Got the ramens and made them rn, made a whole mess cuz I didnt organize things properly and there was a spill but its all good now.
Excellent thoughts on Indian foreign policy by an ex-Singapore FM (who is of Indian origin). A journalist attended the speech and summed up the key points:
https://twitter.com/MattooShashank/status/1618264170797109252
Basically, he argues you shouldn’t think about the current geopolitical situation as analogue to the Cold War. China is not against the current order on ideological grounds like the USSR and there is much greater interdependence between it and the US than there ever was for the USSR.
The US is also going to become more transactional and allies of both countries more and more uneasy with both. See Europe’s complaint’s about the US industrial subsidies or the annoyance of Russia over China’s tepid support for its war.
He argues that India is uniquely well-suited to this new ambiguous strategic environment and lists his reasons. Well-worth reading. The full speech can be viewed here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usjY4IKxAeA
It was presided over by Jaishankar himself and was sponsored by the Indian ministry of external affairs, so it’s as official as it gets. I’ve remarked in the last thread how impressed I am over India’s foreign policy in the last few years and this tells me that Jaishankar has a lot to do with it (which may seem obvious, but there are many foreign ministers with minimal influence over policy. Pakistan’s current one is a good example).
Disagree about Europe’s complaints being of any significance. People need to have a historical perspective over these things. For instance, US and Europe engaged in a full blown trade war in the 60s. Look up the Chicken Tax which is also weirdly the reason why European car manufacturers don’t sell pick up trucks in the US.
France left the NATO central command and kicked out US troops, also in the 1960s. Did any of these disputes cause Europe to become more independent? No. France quietly joined back the NATO central command just a few years after refusing to support the US invasion of Iraq. And now, Scholz is an old school commie who hates the US but despite being the literal Prime Minister of Germany, he cannot do anything. When US says send tanks to Ukraine, Germany will send tanks to Ukraine. Utimately Europeans know who runs the show and they will always fall in line.
I don’t know if the current Cold War is like the previous one, but the main thing to keep in mind is that Americans perceive it to be like the old one and act like it’s the old one. There is a real momentum to reduce trade with China on the US side and while it can’t be cut overnight, things are moving in that direction.
Also don’t think much of that manufacturing will move to India. The Americans had a delusional phase between 2010-2020 where they expected India will fall in line but I don’t think they expect that anymore. They would generally prefer manufacturing and services to move out of Asia in general and come back to the US and if not to at least the American Hemisphere.
Modi talking about Tamil (whatever maybe the factuality of the eulogy) is causing extreme angst among all the intelligentsia – be it trads, raitas, V1s, “fact-checkers” or the leftwinger who is just looking for any lifesaver.
Only one group kangs about language consistently (since 80-90 years) and has constructed a political pole around it. Modi is only registering his cognizance of it.
Yadavs kang about “being Yadav”, V1s are slipping into a victim mentality, Kammas have an evolutionary foodfight with Kapus and Reddys, Lingayats want to be their own religion. Jat Sikhs look set to become the next Puritans and Mallu Muslims are forming the Fourth Caliphate.
People asking “how Sanskrit not the oldest?” are not helping themselves. Virtually no other single group has created a political mobilisation around any IA language identity within India. So yes, Modi is recognizing Tamil as the “oldest language” just as Mulayam got the Padma Vibhushan for just “being Yadav”.
I really hope some North Indian group starts kanging about Sanskrit or any Prakrit consistently. The only IA language being kanged about is Urdu which is not surprising for our Gangetic brethren.
@Bhimrao “Pakistani Wedding dance Bollywood song performance”
We didn’t appropriate Vedic culture.
Bollywood represents hybrid of Islamo-Delhite (i.e. ‘late Mughal’) and 2 flavors of Western culture, colonial and modern. You just don’t realize it, that’s all.
If Bollywood was even remotely Vedic, they would not cover the women’s breasts. Almost all the pre-Islamic sculptures, engravings and paintings show women without breast covering. (And men draped in chadors)
The women of Bali are unaffected by Islamic or British influences and here’s how they dress –
Your weddings are full of Islamic influences, e.g. men wearing Sherwani – where do you think these originate from?
You have lost your original culture due to waves of invasions and colonialism. Few things that remain are Sansrkit chants during your events and things like Yoga. (Though Yoga itself was appropriated from IVC by Aryan elites.)
“Bollywood represents hybrid of Islamo-Delhite (i.e. ‘late Mughal’) and 2 flavors of Western culture, colonial and modern.”
Nope.
“You just don’t realize it, that’s all.”
Tu maane ya na maane dildara…
“If Bollywood was even remotely Vedic, they would not cover the women’s breasts. Almost all the pre-Islamic sculptures, engravings and paintings show women without breast covering. (And men draped in chadors)”
Where do I start here?
“Your weddings are full of Islamic influences, e.g. men wearing Sherwani – where do you think these originate from?”
Lucknow? what were you thinking?
“You have lost your original culture due to waves of invasions and colonialism.”
Me or you?
“Few things that remain are Sansrkit chants during your events and things like Yoga.”
This is endless…
“(Though Yoga itself was appropriated from IVC by Aryan elites.)”
🥱
I’m no mullah, but I’m pretty sure your prophet didn’t ask brides to wear red, have a mehendi ceremoney, have a sangeet ceremony, have grooms arrive with a baraat and what not.
Pretty clear who’s following whom.
Funny how you can find tons of Pakistanis across the internet complaining about how Hindu their weddings are, and yet you get to read stuff like this on BP.
@IsThisReal Prophet (pbuh) didn’t create Afghan, Turkic, Iranian, Central Asian, Sogdian or Khwarezmian culture.
Most of what we call Indo-Islamic in South Asia is basically Iranic, Afghan and Central Asian culture.
(Core Arab culture is Wahabi culture.)
i agree on the first comment. ‘indo-islamic’ culture is persianate
the second is way more complicated than you present. the arabs are mentioned as early as the Assyrians (800s BC) as people who occupy the liminal zone btwn the fertile crescent and arabia. i would breakdown arabs of arabia into 3 classes
– the desert bedouin pastoralist (this is the stereotype most ppl have)
– town/oasis dwellers of the desert (these the ppl of mecca as well as the origin of the sauds, who come from the nejd city of diriyah)
– the inhabitants of the liminal zone that interacted extensively with ppl in the levant and mesopatamia. these were the arabs of petra and the nabateans, as well as the ancestors (at least in part or whole) of the roman emperors elagabalus and alexander severus and philip ‘the arab.’ they were in late antiquity the two polities run by the ghassanids and lakhimids in coordination with the byzantines and sassanians respectively
(note that south arabia in Yemen was arabicized after Islam; it’s native language, some of which still exist, is closer to the ethiopian semitic languages)
much of early Islamic corpus to me seems to really fall into #2 and #3, though ppl romanticize it as #1 (in the battle of yarmuk the arabs fought on foot, not on horses or camels). additionally, i am of the view that #3 is really the most important (the arabic in the koran is northern nabataean), but the fitna of the 680s integrated traditions from #2 into the corpus (i believe muhammad’s illiteracy is an aspect of the integration of #1; a sophisticated town-dwelling merchant is unlikely to be entirely illiterate).
that being said, more concretely, many aspects of ‘islamic culture’ like legalism, madrassas and hadiths seem to be inherited from jewish/christian and later persian cultural traditions (no surprise that the foremost hadith compiler was from bukhara). the philosophical element still preserved in shia islam is hellenic.
Very informative, thanks Razib. Origin of early Islam in or close to Levant is a very interesting theory.
Do you think the early Arab conquests were led by a faction within the Ghassanids/Lakhmids?
Wahabbi/Salafi culture originates in Najd and is inspired by Hanbali school.
Hejaz was not Salafi until the 18th century a did not fully become one until the formation of Saudi Arabia.
is it even salafi today? my understanding is just like shia in the east other forms of sunni islam exist in the hejaz (obv mecca, but even outside of it)
I lived in Saudia Arabia for 2 years couple of decades ago. At the time, Riyadh ( centre of Najd) was the strictest when it came to morality policing.. full veil was strictly enforced for women (including face covering, beheading after Friday prayers etc etc), shops shut down at prayer time etc. hejaz region of Jeddah / Medina were quite relaxed in comparison, and so were the eastern regions of the Eastern Province ( lot of Shia/Irani influence)
So undoubtedly salafi influence is less common in those regions even today. Although hard to tell. All Friday sermons are controlled by the monarchs, Imams appointed by government, Saudi government also demolished many important Islamic sites.. ( houses of Sahaba etc). My brother just came back from Madinah, he is a Salafi himself but even he was pissed off at Saudi govt at the wholesale destruction/ intentionally leaving these sites of Islamic heritage in disrepair.
What are Saudi leaders justification of demolishing important religious sites? Is it like they are not that important. Or is it just that since they are ‘custodians of Islam’, no one can really challenge them?
Something similar is happening in India as well. BJP has demolished various smaller temples to make way for the grand temple at Ayodhya. There has been opposition to this, and the opposition has tried its best to portray BJP as anti Hindu. But since the BJP/RSS is seen as Hindutva personified, there is hardly any traction for this theory.
Saurav @
Re Saudi indifference to religious sites around Mecca, I remember a nyt article 10 years back narrating an exchange:-
Mecca reconstruction opposer:- when I circumambulating the kabbah, the mountains in the background look good/inspiring. This new high rise will block that view.
Saudi official :- why are you looking at the mountains? Shouldn’t you focus on the kaabah?
My tldr; is that Saudi interpretation of Islam does not believe in any veneration of physical objects. Very unlike the interpretation in PK, IN and BD where any damage to Holy book whether accidental or otherwise triggers riots.
@Saurav
Wahabism is extremely iconoclastic and it sees people venerating other places of religious significance as one of the biggest heresies. So their solution is to destroy them. The Saudi monarchy has a pact with Wahabi clerical elite to implement their version of Islam on the peninsula (which also suits them).
They are not considered custodians of Islam, their title is custodians of the ‘two mosques’ (and they seem to limit themselves strictly to them). Islamic countries don’t say much because there is no religious sanctity to these other sites in scripture, but its undeniable that majority Muslims (in Saudi or outside it) still want to see them and protect them. But the Saudi ruling and clerical elite doesn’t care, they had money so they didn’t care about religious tourism to these other areas because most Muslims will travel to Makkah and Medina anyway. They seem to not care about anything other than the ‘two mosques’.
I would say the current Wahabbi monarchies in Saudi/UAE/Kuwait do not really care about Islam either, and are on full path to Westernization. Their own populations usually don’t say much in opposition because they are taken care of quite well (from cradle to grave, free chidlcare, free healthcare, free education, low cost food, easy govt jobs etc etc) and their economic success silences any opposition.
I would not draw a parallel between these monarchies and BJP’s Hindutva.. these monarchies are not seen by most Muslims as representative of Islam, quite the opposite as even Salafis outside GCC hate them, but iconoclasm is in Islam and they follow it to a tee and criticism is muted. I would say they operate more like Early Ummayads, where Arabs, particularly those of the Ummayad clan, reigned supreme, and did not necessarily follow any Islamic tenets but rather used religion to rule. There was an opposing undercurrent but initially it was suppressed because of early Ummayad successes.
BJP has positioned itself as representative and champion of Hindus so the dynamic is different.
“yet you get to read stuff like this on BP.”
The whole thread started with a silly dance video someone posted, which was basically one more example of Indian dudes voracious consumption of ‘light skinned girl does something’.
From there things devolved into the usual stale culture conversation that props up here all too often.
One thing surprised me in the Bay Area. I expected to see a lot of South Indian tech dudes with light skinned arranged marriage wives. This hasnt been the case. Wives are usually on the darker and taller side. I guess when it actually comes to the big decisions, people select based on more practical considerations (education etc) than skin color.
“Indian dudes voracious consumption of ‘light skinned girl does something’.”
Nah bro, I deny this accusation.
“From there things … all too often.”
There is no conversation here. Pakistani bas pagal ho gaye hain…
“One thing surprised … skin color.”
(a) Its not like they have much choice. Marriage market here is fierce.
(b) Happens often: the guy is the usual quiet, introvert Telugu, girl is NI (god forbid if Bengali or Delhi-maal) hustler, ends miserably. I never recommend Madraasis marry NI women, SIs are too nice to handle this rayta.
(3) Importing arrange marriage bride from India: Situation is bad, you should listen to the negotiations. One of my Telugu mate talked to this girl from Vijawada on some Madraasi matrimony site, she had done some Masters from IIIT or something, girl droned on and on and on about her career goals and how she will need support after marriage to do her PhD, and then digging on and on and on about the GC status of my friend. He had many similar experiences.
Telugu people are nice overall but very haraami when it comes to American visa. Plus I think they are sending over so many people that a lot of their not so bright people are already here and that is painting a easier story in homeland.
Bali might not be representative especially of the Indian cultures that did not influence it. Also “yoga itself was appropriated from ivc by Aryan elites”. We don’t even know if ivc had yoga outside if some pretty weak evidence, yoga isn’t just some poses.
Bhimrao – “Your weddings are full of Islamic influences, e.g. men wearing Sherwani – where do you think these originate from?”
Lucknow? what were you thinking?
Lol. It’s a Central Asian/Mughal bastardization of Chokha coats that are worn by people of Caucasus. Turks used to call it the dress of the Sherwani (people of Sherwan, South Caucasus).
Bhimrao – “Where do I start here?”
Nowhere. It’s going to be a tough job trying to find picture of pre-Islamic period paintings, idols or stone engravings of women with breasts covered. Maybe if you tried hard enough you will, but surely wasn’t the norm.
North Indian high culture is basically Perso-Islamic with lot of local flavor. This escapes notice of many Hindu Nats because it’s so deeply embedded. The Western culture that is being adopted these days is easily identifiable because it’s recent and not that ingrained ( yet) but the Persianate-Islamic one flies under the radar of many. People wear Sherwani and suits to weddings but rarely does anyone wear Lungi as formal attire. Bollwyood just encapsulates the same.
This is the real area why there is some similarity and familiarty amongst Pakistan/India ( common Muslim and British high culture and cuisine ). Not some ancient civilizational binding based on caste making everyone from Tamil Nadu to Punjab feel sem2sem.
I would take it a step further and argue that Hindutva is nothing but European nationalism combined with Islamic religious brotherhood.
Nothing wrong with that imo. Religious innovation/ Bidah is a good thing.
Well that is quite obvious. The whole Hindu Rasthra rhetoric is like ripoff of Islamic Caliphate imposing Sharia. Anti Caste movement is the Ummah movement. And the justifications for all the nationalistic / racialist elements came from Europe.
Hindutva is actually good for the Hindus since it is a modern movement that provides them with a strong united identity against Islamic and Christian/Western/united Chinese fronts in the global space.. but remains to be seen if it is going to actually accommodate various groups within India (Hindu or non) or create more enemies within.
you guys are ignoring the role of the idea of christendom/west. i mean, the idea of the ummah exists, but when hindutva was emerging western civilization was at its overwhelming peak.
Man forget breast covering even veils existed in pre Islamic era (called Avagunthana) this is where the modern Ghoonghat traditions come from.
and the saree
Btw, the idiot Modi thinks he went native with his attire ( e.g.
).
Nothing he wears even remotely resembles how natives dressed up in pre-Islamic period.
you need to chill out. your comments don’t exhibit an awesome mind with rich detailed understandings of things that might give you the slack i might otherwise give. i concede you aren’t a moron, so congratulations though.
I totally wouldn’t want to be banned, but I don’t think you can ban me while I’m armed with VPN.
right, but i can recognize your mix of midwittery and condescension. but i guess you’re OK since you are just a muslim version of the internet-hindus i have to tolerate here. by your very behavior and comportment you show your hand as to who is truly your kind 🙂
They “look down” on us but on the same breath want us to be the sem2sem and part of “muh Greater india” bs “we are da same brozzer!!” you guys are seriously obsessed too ngl
Lmao. What?
You do realize that most proponents of ‘greater India’ call PAK/BAN a part of the country in an extremely condescending manner, right? It’s the furthest thing from whatever brotherhood impression you have. Why on earth would they “brozzer!!” muslims of all people? Lol. Some even straight up advocate war.
Reminds me of this one-
https://twitter.com/Anam_Iqbal_/status/1551208965484060673
QTs to the tweet I posted earlier today are a pretty good reflection of the current sentiment. Vast majority wants to cut all ties, now more than ever. No interest in any brotherhood.
‘aman ki asha’ types can keep dreaming.
Probably the only reason IND-BAN relations aren’t bad is because no terrorism. Modi still gets shat on regularly (and rightly so) for not fencing the entire border, and announcing new trains to connect both countries. Wonder how things will be post Hasina and Modi.
Still rattled onto the next thread 😭
‘they want us to be sem2sem we know their agenda’, yeah what? that you are slightly ‘whiter’ on average and we feel inferior?
sure that’s why I am including freaking Bangladesh & South India in this binding again and again.
@IsThisReal is right. Obsessed with you and your modern nation state? Lmao if anything Pak/Ban are looked down upon. Though that’s another topic. But it’s a shithole v/s shithole comparison so even coming out on top doesn’t mean anything.
It’s simple. There are clusters of sub-regions that are binded together and separated from others by atleast one factor. There is a Indian/call it whatever you want civilizational region. It’s real. I have provided the basis. You can’t for yours (except same taxation +army muhbritish effects)
It’s so funny seeing you all not being able to answer that societal division point and trying to divert it. A continuous landmass showing such a unique system for societal division (not seen anywhere else) doesn’t prove anything? Lmfao lying again and again. Let me repeat, it’s because they are civilisationally connected.
Prove otherwise and I will accept that I am wrong.
sem2sem/hindutvavadi/truschke was right labels are all you can use.
I have already said that just because you are part of a larger civilisation with other regions doesnt mean you are sem2sem with everything within. For instance, Normandy is different from Arpitania. Both still linguistically connected to form a larger nation. Again straw-manning and coping, that’s all you can do.
It’s absolutely pathetic and hilarious at the same time.
Here again the Indian goes off about muh skin tone muh I am whiter n shieet lmao I could not care less if Bangladeshis have dark skin tones similar to South Indians, we are still linguistically, culturally ethnically religiouslyand phenotypically different from them and Indians as a whole.
India and Pakistan share those ethno-linguistic cultural ties(outside of the Balochis/Pahstuns) tho so I dc much for that
Cannot believe they’re still going on about the historically inaccurate “civilization binding” crap again holy you’re like a broken clock.
get a grip and let it go, we are not sem2sem
https://www.speedtest.net/global-index
5G doing its thing.
Still remember when GTA V came out, took me a week to download it with BSNL.
all this pak/ind/bang stuff. i think the comparison to sri lanka is instructive. i’m leaving off what the instruction is, but i think it’s obvious
I dont understand what u mean here tbh
Sri Lanka is doing pretty splendid in many facets i.e. cleaner, better organized, better run, less pollution, safer,etc
Think they’ll bounce back from their economic troubles fine but it may take some time idk
Do you think the early Arab conquests were led by a faction within the Ghassanids/Lakhmids?
sort of. the historical records are one-sided. but my moderate-confidence model
– liminal ‘advanced’ arabs (‘saracens’) who espouse some sort of sectarian christianity at least nominally take over near east
– their sectarian arab religion transforms into an ethnic religion and starts stripping elements that align with melkite christianity
– fitna of 680s splits on regional lines, muhammad is retconned as a meccan/arabian figure rather than a prophet of northern arabia
– 690s final split of arab muslims from their milieu as a distinct ethno-religion (ummayyads stopped worshipping in damascus church in their own alcove this decade; built masjid)
– 700-750 the integration of non-arab clients into the new religion causes tension because of its originally christian universal element at tension with arab racial supremacism now
– after 750, the abbassids overthrow the old arab ascendancy even if they are from it, and iranians start to reshape islam (many of these are central asian iranians, like al-bukhari) so it’s recognizable to what we know by 850 as the sunni-shia division starts to be starker
Fascinating. This is quite similar to the model I heard on the History of Byzantium podcast, who btw might be an interesting guest for your Unsupervised Learning podcast.
a prophet named muhammad is alluded to by an Armenian (?) priest writing in syria or something in the early 7th cent. i think it’s plausible there was a prophetic figure like this. these were common around 600, and there were lots of weird ‘heterodox’ religions (the mandaeans are still with us). and much of the sirah lit is pretty old. but a massive proportion of the ‘doctors of the ulema’ were of iranian ancestry (even if arabicized)…the arab muslims were just culturally hijacked by their far more numerous subjects after the abbasid revolution…
(note that the sunni-shia thing really started heating up in the 9th century after the mu’tazila failure)
If I remember correctly from that episode, that Armenian priest doesn’t actually name Muhammad, instead just mentioning a prophet of the Ishmaelites. Either way, a historical Muhammad doesn’t seem unlikely. I can imagine a scenario where disruption in trade due to the almost apocalyptic Byzantine-Sassanid War causes the merchant Muhammad to get religion and later start his own warband.
I heard about a North Arabaian Muhammad idea from some Dan Gibson documentary a while back. I think it was called the sacred city.
Victoria Nuland of “Fuck the EU” fame.
She just visited SL again. Twice within a couple of months. The “color” revolution and protests were not successful enough I guess. So probably here to orchestrate a second round. (Was reasonably sucessful in Pakistan, Imran Khan got ousted)
====
Nord Stream pipeline bombing:
“Senator Cruz, like you, I am, and I think the administration is, very gratified to know that Nord Stream 2 is now, as you like to say, a hunk of metal at the bottom of the sea.
I am surprised she did not try to implicate Russia
Watch: Top US Official Hails Nord Stream 2 Sabotage In Senate Testimony
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/watch-top-us-official-hails-nord-stream-2-sabotage-senate-testimony
she is coming for India. : (
The whole Hindu Rasthra rhetoric is like ripoff of Islamic Caliphate imposing Sharia. Anti Caste movement is the Ummah movement. And the justifications for all the nationalistic / racialist elements came from Europe.
@S Qureishi
This kind of pop-analysis is common among the left-wing commentariat. Easy to prepare and easy to consume and easy to poop out.
Much of Hindutva’s counter-mobilisation has linkages with electoral compulsions. Many internal contradictions are only resolved by the exigencies of the ballot box.
Unlike Sharia, Islamic Caliphates or European racialism – Hindutva has not jettisoned practicality in favor of absolutes. And stop with the platitudes to an imaginary Ummah. It only exists among Arabs. Subcontinental muslims are second-class.
@Ugra “Subcontinental muslims are second-class.”
This needs correction. Subcontinental muslims (and hindus) who do second-class jobs get second-class treatment.
My maternal uncle holds senior position in a bank in KSA. This is his 4th year there. He’s well respected. Said the Arab colleagues are more cultured than Indians.
But then how’s it any different from Pakistan or India? We treat our low class labor like shit. Are we really better than Arabs?
I have a few family members, mostly doctors who worked in the Saudi for decades and are well respected names in their local area (even got awards) one was offered citizenship as well. A lot of Indian (Hindu) doctors are also well respected and general. It seems like the respect is given by your position and profession more than it is by your ethnicity or race.
Ugra you are second class even within India. Stop projecting your state onto others.
Ugra,
I urge you and the other Indians here to stop always projecting your insecurities on to Muslims. I’ve said this before as well but you guys feel a certain way about Muslims and project your casteist worldviews on to us as a result. It doesn’t work like that.
As a Bangladeshi Muslim currently in university, I have not seen or experienced that whatsoever from them. We have a Muslim Student Association(pretty sure all unis in Canada do) and many of the leadership are Bangladeshi Muslims and Indian Muslims and Arab Muslims and we all get along very well. My first or one of my first friends here was an Arab Muslim. My father also has good friends and colleagues working in the UAE Qatar Arabia etc as middle class and above professionals and they also have nothing bad to say and love the country and live great lives in great places. Your high caste low caste bs dichotomy doesn’t exist, it’s merely an economic one with them mistreating lower economic class workers of any race or background or religion badly.
Also, judging by your comments, you are a South Indians. Are you really in the position to be dictating who is 2nd class or not when your own North Indian counterparts think you of the same way? Just look at what Saurav or something has to say about Dravidians and all the likes he gets in his comments. Also, you Hindus in India seem to treat Muslim Indians the same way as well as Hindu Dalits.
South Indians also look down on North Indians.
@PencilMan @S Qureishi
Bangladeshis or Pakistanis or Indians (even when they are Muslims) are not offered a standardized shot at citizenship in GCC states. This is a fact. Arabs draw a clear line in the sand.
You can’t see it. Or pretend not to see it.
it’s not arabs. it’s emirati arabs. at least for citizenship. the rules are easy to find https://immigrantinvest.com/blog/uae-citizenship-en/#:~:text=A%20UAE%20passport%20in%20Dubai,%24204%2C000%20in%20UAE%20property.
@Razib
I read that link with interest. Emiratis have indeed broken a watertight door. But two things – this is very recent (2021) and the clauses are all heavily grandfathered. Have to see how things are 5 years down the line.
Just take a look at Sweden – political atmosphere shifted into right wing after barely 10 years of uncontrolled migration.
With as much emphasis as possible, Hindutva and other revanchist movements within India operate in much more contested space than either the Muslim Brotherhood or the European right wing.
Ugra,
I don’t see what’s wrong with that? Why single out subcontinentals? The same rules apply for any other ethnicity as well, they’re not going to get citizenship as well and plus some of them are opening up routes to citizenship for everyone, so you’re wrong.
They’re putting their people ahead and keeping their interests in mind but that doesn’t mean they hate other folks. One of my dad’s friends from his college days (Bangladeshi) works as a higher up/director at an airlines/consultancy(i forget) firm there and he will never get citizenship but he makes good money, has a great house and is well-respected by his colleagues, Arab and otherwise.
It’s socioeconomic discrimination towards low earning labourer folks of any background be they Paki Bangladeshi Indian or Filipino Indonesian Afghan Egyptian etc
Ancient genome of Empress Ashina reveals the Northeast Asian origin of Göktürk Khanate
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jse.12938
no one except nazis are shocked by this
It only exists among Arabs. Subcontinental muslims are second-class.
the first is false. the second is kind of true, though it’s complicated by gulf arab wealth (the gulf arabs and arabians themselves were not thought of highly by the arabs of cairo or bagdhad).
in the multiethnic masjids i grew up in upstate NY it was
– turks, arabs, most standing as Muslims (no Iranians cuz shia), ran the masjid
– subcontinental doctors funded it, despite being socially second class citizens
– black converts ppl were happy to have to show antiracist, but socially separate, and often did more menial things like drive buses
– malays, etc., kept to themselves, tho seemed to mix more with subcontinental than middle eastern ppl
(most of the Pakistanis were mohjajirs)
That seems quite anecdotal
The Turks would usually avoid Arabic imams because they dislike Salafism and almost all Arab imams are Salafis. Only time I have seen Turks and Arabs under same mosque is in a Pakistani run mosque.
Arabs (Egyptian, Syrian, Khaleeji) actually cluster in mosques more with Black Africans (Sudanese, Somalians). Most Somali and Sudanese mosques are either Salafi or Hanbali/Shafi which are mazhabs that are closer to Salafism. My niece and nephew go to a Islamic school (usually set up in or near mosques), and it’s run by both black and arab salafi muslims, and the students are also mixed arab and black africans (don’t see many Pakistanis there). I don’t really see a division or hierarchy there so the race argument against blacks is moot. (If anyone actually wants to avoid black people for whatever reason, they would avoid an Arab Salafi mosque.) Alternatively my cousin’s daughter goes to a Islamic school, (mosque is run by Pakistanis) and the student population there is mixed between Pakistani, Afghans, Indians, Turks, Uzbeks and even a few Iraqi Arabs. What is common here is these countries are all Hanafi majority. There is no hierarchy here either.
Indian Hindus have an inferiority complex vis a vis the west and islam. they also see the world in a divided classist way (own experience of the caste system). Projecting that onto calling S.Asian muslims second class muslims is a common jibe.
The economic state of the country immigrants plays a big role in social acceptance of that group in the host country.
The Turks would usually avoid Arabic imams because they dislike Salafism and almost all Arab imams are Salafis. Only time I have seen Turks and Arabs under same mosque is in a Pakistani run mosque.
this is upstate NY in the 1980s. really no choice
also, it seems retarded to say arab imams are salafi. most of the arab world is not salafi. are the only arabs you run into gulf-funded?
( al-azhar teaches all 4 schools of sunni jurisprudence, wtf are you talking about?)
Razib
Most Pakistanis are barelvi but 90% of the mosques run by Pakistanis you see in the west are Deobandi run. Infact even inside Pakistan, Deobandi madrassahs outnumber Barelvi ones. Deobandis got more funding and are more organized. Similarly Salafis got a lot of funding from Gulf Arab states and rich private donors in the Arab world, they are the most organized and their imams are most common in Arab world. Saudi Arabia and Qatar gives away lot of scholarships to Salafi students who become preachers and trainers. Half the youtube preachers in english are Salafi.
You won’t really know which mosque is what sunni denomination unless you really regularly attend prayers in different masjids. Minor ritual differences during prayer or just listen to friday sermon and pickup easily which sect the imam belongs too. Also for many hanafis, the difference between salafi and hanbali is not even technical, they are both sides of the same coin. And Shafism is not far behind.
Also just to note, al azhar can teach all four madhabs but hanafi mazhab is not common in Arabia (except Iraq) or East Africa.
i come from a centuries long lineage of hanafi ulems. i know all this
Indian Hindus have an inferiority complex vis a vis the west and islam.
nice to see you are an expert on hindus.
also, nice to see all the hindus here who are experts on islam.
nice to see bangladeshis and Pakistanis who are experts on india and vice versa.
you are all so full of bullshit, i am 100% sure you are subcontinental males.
I don’t get why Ugra shits on Arabs all the time.
—
I or anyone else don’t shit on Tamils for race or caste. We shit on them for being assholes. Qureshi and his snide ways…
—
Anything India :- Casteism, Well then anything Pakistan :- Casteism and inbreeding.
Projecting ___ onto calling ‘Indian Hindus have an inferiority complex vis a vis the west and islam.’ ___ is a common Pakistani jibe.
—
EVERYONE is nice to everyone else in US and Canada.
Arabs, Turks, and Iranians in the US are a pretty chill people. Filter works well here. But the usual suspects on this thread are expectedly lying about the absence of racial issues. I can post so much proof, but frankly I don’t give a shit about Arabs or Turks. It is revealing to see Bengalis who were ass fucked by Punjabis say, ‘…project your casteist worldviews on to us as a result. It doesn’t work like that.’ LoL yeah read Sir Syed’s views on Bengalis…
Some thoughts:
1) UAE is a very good place to live. Know Indian doctor there who gets USD 53K in housing allowance alone, rents a beach facing home, drives a fancy German car. People are free to do whatever just don’t break traffic laws.
2) Saudi and Qatar can be retarded. Don’t let people celebrate their festivals but hypocrites will fight to carry their garden umbrellas… ahem wives in the west. I consider myself too talented to put up with their shit, would never go there, these countries will open up or become like Samarkand and Bukhara. Knew folks who work for Aramco, some who teach in Indian schools there. Not bad in practice as long as you know what you are getting into.
3) Really hateful Hindus should hope things don’t reform rather than keep poking their nose. If garden umbrellas don’t have it good then why are you so upset? it’s not your garden umbrella. Set your own house in order first.
There goes the Indian inferiority complex again. Explain to me how the 1971 war has any relevance to the original comment about “subcontinental muslims are 2nd class in the eyes of arabs”? This is the most obvious case of projection considering that comes from a need to compensate for something. you’re literally Bihari bro lmao people use your community as a literal slur😂
muh 1971 Hindus will bring up the most irrelevant shit out of nowhere to cope lol.
Who tf is a Sir Syed? Anyways, did he say something bad about Bengalis? Am I supposed to give a fuck, Mr. Bihari?
Compare yourselves with the Congolese or the other Africans, that’s about where Bihar stands. Stop acting all high and mighty lmao
“It is revealing to see Bengalis who were ass fucked by Punjabis say”
Razib, how does this guy not get banned but I can’t call him a dirty streetshitting pajeet without you giving me a hard warning? This guy is some salty Bihari retard who feels inferior because his people are a laughingstock within India and wants to take it out on us lmao they have the same HDI as the poorest African nations.
Like this retard brough up a war from 50 years ago between South Asian nations when the topic was about “subcontinental muslims are 2nd class (apparently) to MiddleEasterners”
Anyways on that note, I’ve had positive experiences with Pakis irl. It’s the ones online(mainly from the UK) that are annoying otherwise 2 of my closest friends are Punjabis/Sindhis. Even a Paki cab driver I took once said that some of his closest friends were Bangladeshis and he was like my dad’s age so old gen. Most don’t care about what the military did, something that happened 51 years ago but clearly you Baljeet ass mofos do. Ofc there’s plenty of people who talk shit from both sides tho lmao
because you drag the overall conversation down with a lot of insulting comments and retarded seeming “hahas”. it’s not good for anyone, but you are too immature to understand this.
pretty tolerant on the open threads since i don’t monitor but jesus i’m going to have to shut this down soon at this rate…
i don’t see the ass-fucked part being offensive btw. they murdered and raped a lot of bengalis, right? what’s ass-fucking next to that?
Razib,
the salient aspect of this is the vulgarity of the comment(s) the streetshitting Bihari posted. You’ve reprimanded me for similar reasons in the past when I’ve used “offensive” language and wording but you didn’t do it in his case and it’s left quite a bitter aftertaste.
Also, extending your logic here a bit, a lot of Indians have names that end with “eet” or “esh” and the India open defecation rate is pretty high. Should be fine then
>EVERYONE is nice to everyone else in US and Canada.
I know Arabs and Pakistanis intermarry (too many examples to list here), my cousin married Turkish, my brother married a Caucasian, there are just so many examples I can you within my immediate circle. There are fewer Shia-Sunni marriages than there are inter-race marriages. But what more proof do you want than that? If you want to find racism, yeah sure, everyone is racist and South Asians are even bigger racists because they even have caste/tribe/clan which they hold to relatively stronger than most other areas of the world. But if someone’s first reaction to facing racism is to believe their entire group is considered second class, then that’s an issue with you guys, it’s projection.
>Anything India :- Casteism, Well then anything Pakistan :- Casteism and inbreeding.
Yes Pakistan’s problems are partly because of cousin marriages. Not because some stupid low IQ theory, it’s simply because lack of intratribal marriages gives strength to tribal politics and difficulty in doing meaningful reforms.
Razib,
I respect you for being a well read man, and somewhat accomplished scholar albeit from a field that I do not consider important nor find interesting.
But know that other people have accomplishments too.
I try to be respectful here and put up with your tantrums and diktats because at the end of the day this blog is your kingdom.
But repeatedly censoring people’s replies while letting your rabid Bangladeshi dog off the leash all the time is not cool. I don’t agree with this. Signing off.
Saurav, Prats, thewarlock: maje karo veere, wish you well.
you weren’t censored. you need to be less conspiratorial, it was in the moderating queue (probably because you are posting a lot).
pencilman does need to behave better.
this assertion that there are these awesome incredibly smart contributors to this comment section reminds me of the russell brand joke that it’s not a good sign when you have to convince someone you are good-looking.
if you are a very bright person it shouldn’t be hard to drop into these comments, offer up dense data-packed comments that cite and allude to things that add value. do so, and I’ll respect you. otherwise, I’ll think you should shut up.
to give a concrete example you asserted that the reason Iranians rebelled against the abassids is that they disliked taxes and oppression form the arabs. this is a generic answer. every premodern elite oppressed the people they ruled. that’s a constant. what changes to trigger rebellions?
so an answer that might impress me with knowledge rather than rhetorical posturing is an exogenous environmental shock like the one that triggered the overthrow of wang mang and his stillborn dynasty. or, you might point allude in 9th and 10th century Iran to Patricia crone’s work in *The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran: Rural Revolt and Local Zoroastrianism* which illustrate that the changes in rural regions that included the emergence of ghulat Islamic movements drawing from Zoroastrianism.
some midwits might object “oh you don’t need to know this stuff, blah blah blah.” this was scorpioneater’s reaction when i pointed out his midwit observations were just wrong, but he refused to dig any deeper than where he was (he works in software, why should he read history? but then he shouldn’t comment). you can offer generic conjectures and bland and vague assertions without density and detail, but they don’t really add to the discussion or elevate anyone. a lot of the assertions i see on this weblog are from people who want to make generalities based on their intuition but no one knows who you are and know cares who you are.
to give an example, someone who knows about early hindutva could actually explore the relationship between it and Islamic vs. christian stimulus. instead, you just get ppl making bland assertions, but hindu nationalism emerged at a time when both islam and Christianity were undergoing reformist/revivalist movements in different ways.
now i have to go back to working on real stuff, bbl and perhaps just going to ban a few ppl if i feel like it.
Overall agree with Bhimrao (except the Bangladeshi dog part). Razib is very condescending towards everyone here without realizing many of us as H1b, doctors, engineers and useful PhDs contribute more to humanity than he does.
Razib is the only one putting his public name on this blog. I can only imagine the unsavoury attention that this relative FoS gets him.
Privilege depends on the amount of risk one takes.
Razib is the only one putting his public name on this blog.
I do on and off and maybe Quershi is his real name. Even mu handle is unique and has been in use since the 1988 when I first went to the US as a grad student. 8 bit handle for email, first initial and 7 letters from last name
However, I can afford to be quite open about Identity. A nobody jungle bunny whose days of seeking a job are long gone. So dont need to worry about “fact checkers” cancelling me.
oh, great anonymous contributor to the world, please note that your comments indicate you have an IQ of `115. not worth engaging with. if you want to be respected by me, add some value. the tone of your comment makes me want to block you, if you really were a great contributor you wouldn’t allude to it 🙂 you would be it.
i run this blog so am insulting quite often, but you also see periodically i stop engaging in posturing rhetoric, which is what you and what your interlocuters do, and actually drop some knowledge in. if you did that, instead of speculating based on nothing, it would improve the comments (warlock for example does do that quite often and has for many years; perhaps i should bow down before his awesome knowledge because he’s a doctor! [narrator: only morons think that being a doctor is super impressive, no offense warlock and all the other doctors who read this blog ;])
finally, i run this blog. I’ll ban who i want and this discussion is theoretical. you have no influence or pull or say.
finally, i’ll note i’ve run blogs on the internet for 20 years (as a hobby). and i’ve always acted like this. and i’ve always had ppl say “do you know i have a PhD from Stanford!” (this was a real person)
here’s the thing: you are reading my blog, i am not reading your blog. so i don’t care, you, like tens of millions of others over the last few decades, choose to read my thoughts or read platforms i host. i don’t read you, and i don’t know you. i don’t care what your credentials are. i know many, many, credentialed people (look at this moron: https://mobile.twitter.com/askdrfatima), and i know people who are very successful in tech being HS dropouts. those focused on credentials are stupid. i’ve never met a theoretical physicist (my brother is one) who has EVER bragged about their credential. they are smart. that is all that matters. you talk to them, you know they are smart.
Also, extending your logic here a bit, a lot of Indians have names that end with “eet” or “esh” and the India open defecation rate is pretty high. Should be fine then
this blog is like the 8th priority in my day to day decision making (behind family, startup, substack, friends, etc. etc.)
don’t argue with me and don’t annoy me. you aren’t abraham haggling with god about sodom. I’ll burn it down if i want.
Everyone needs to just be nicer to one another. And I’m not acting like I’ve been the nicest person. I’ve been mean before too. But the level of cordialness has had a recent steep drop off. This happens from time to time. But I think it’s best, if people could say their opinions without personal insults or openly racial/nationality/religious demeaning statements. Like I get it. People can say whatever they want. That’s true. But some stuff doesn’t contribute to discourse at all and is just inflammatory. I myself will try to practice what I’m preaching.
+1.
My thinking re engaging in this blog is that I get put my 2 cent perspective which differs from msm in an anonymous way. Low chance it has any impact. But it is more than zero.
If ppl want to highlight the achievements of their group/community/caste/ethnicity, paste data and/or examples. Same goes with pushing back unfair characterization of your in-group.
Otherwise ppl takes things personally here.
this blog is now indexed on google news
I meant to say that my contribution to this blog has low chances of persuading minds.
This blog has had traction since you became well known on twtr and iirc nyt ran a piece on you.
you mean this one? back when i trusted the media https://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/19/us/19beliefs.html
the blog has traction because we have kept it going (it was cofounded by me and zach latif). there was a time btwn 2012 and 2017 i didn’t really do much here and omar ali kept it going
Pencilman are you a teenager? Coz you always get flame baited quite easily.
nah, young adult(18-20)
I will ofc reply to bs like that
Ah. I remember those old times. How i use to get into fights on Yahoo chatroom and stuff.
People suffer a lot in asserting supremacy or shitting down on others. They cant put across strengths and weaknesses and leave it there. And try to make their side better on that knowledge they now possess.
@Razib very typical of you to steer any discussion with a poster you don’t like towards IQ comparison.. I don’t remember mentioning anything about IQ, all I said is that most of the posters here (whatever IQ) are h1b/engineers/doctors/useful PhDs who contribute to society more than you do, and consequently earn way more than you. So maybe consider toning down the condescending attitude.
Lol@ I am so and so. Treat me with respect even though I might be wrong. Very desi 😂.
low IQ behavior. i dislike this person. i’m blocking him.
There’s no good objective way to compare societal contributions well, unless the difference is absolutely massive. That too, we all work together. Some jobs help more directly. Some are scalable. Some are not.
A financier who funds a Doctors without Borders mission isn’t worth all the doctors who participate combined. It’s a chain. And all parts are replaceable. Everyone has to work together to accomplish the task.
Razib, from reading a lot of his work and seeing the BS he has put up with in his life with media mistreatment, seems to be an honorable guy who stands for truth and seeks to educate others about the truth. He offers a ton of free content to do so. He is loyal to his friends. Just the way he speaks glowlingly about his kids’ achievements and promise and seeks to defend them against BS DEI holding them back is admirable.
And frankly, we don’t know his net worth. His substack alone makes him quite rich. His startup could be booming for all we know.
Regardless, even if he were pauper, I would still respect him. He is a good person who dispenses a lot of wisdom at the intersection of science and history. He is loyal to his friends and family.
Can he be a bit abrasive in his domain, sure. But I know only a fraction of the BS he has put up with. And I still get it. He gives a lot out for free. He is willing to listen to counterpoint. He just asks for facts and nuance rather than intuitive theories that offer nothing more than pretty figurines assembled from pieces of motivated reasoning.
Am I being deferential here? Sure. But I agree that he has forgotten more than I know, when it comes to much of the stuff discussed here. If he calls me an idiot about a lot of this stuff, he is probably correct. Compared to him, on many of these topics, I am. Does that mean I don’t try to offer counterpoint? I do. But I stick to a paradigm. I try to cite facts, and I am clear when I am using anecdote.
Have I myself behaved badly on here before? Sure. But I’m trying to rectify that too. Regardless, I am all for burying any hatchet. There’s no point in these types of personalized attacks.
And maybe you’re right J Khan. Perhaps you are a genius and contributing a lot. Maybe Razib isn’t worth your time. Then leave here. If you think the rules are unfair. Start something better.
i appreciate the comment warlock. some day you will perhaps settle down and have children you don’t waste your time commenting here 😉
as for who i am, and what i’m proud of. i’m the father of 3 beautiful children, and i never turn on my friends. the rest is commentary, and ppl can see that commentary in tens of millions of words i’ve put on the internet for free up until 2020. if ppl think you can do better, do so. there are those who do, and i really enjoy reading what they write. i prefer reading to writing tbh, which is why i never became a full-time writer and continue to work in biotech. feels more ‘natural’ to me.
(also, the fixation on credentials to me is a good tell that someone doesn’t really know the point of what those credentials are supposed to tell you about someone’s abilities)
> earn way more than you
I would be highly skeptical of this. I think Razib’s substack alone probably brings him more moolah than many folks here.
Also, picking a personal fight with the owner of the blog you’re on is rarely an intelligent move, so your claim of being very smart is self-refuting.
i make OK money. far less than some ppl i have met through this blog who are senior level FAANG (OK, more FANG) employees. but as someone who has socialized with these people, and who has pitched to (to raise) and presented at the houses of billionaires who all of you know, it’s the true sign of a retard to think that money is the measure of the worth of one’s opinion. or perhaps it’s a cultural difference, idk. we americans care about money a lot, but that’s because we like to buy things. rich peoples’ opinions are not more worthy. this is clear from the very rich ppl who subscribe to my substack to read my opinions (i am always polite to billionaires, but i do think they appreciate that i don’t kiss their asses about their opinions and thoughts; they know you’re talking to them for their $ not their ideas).
i banned j khan. he is trying to evade, but now all his comments go into mod queue. some of you seem to think i’m ‘censoring you’ when this happens but it happens if you post too much or your IP is not recognized. most of the time i let comments go through if they aren’t too racist or vulgar. but i am going to censor j khan because i think he’s stupid AND without humility about it. unless he writes something that is intellectual awesome i’m not going to be approving 🙂
pencilman, if you are an adult, comment like one. you tend to go off like a tween when ppl prod you and bring down these comments in quality. i’m now tired of this.
i will go back to just approving comments in mod queue on this open thread now and no longer participate (other shit to do)
someone seems unaware that i can see every comment that goes into moderation queue. is he aware of how this works? half a dozen comments, some of them long, and all going into trash. but he keeps commenting. seem intelligent behavior to me…
I think it will be unfortunate if some old contributors stop contributing just because of something minor like this
well, when zach’s bipolar friend kabir (he was literally bipolar with admitted mental issues) was shitting all over this place ppl were leaving. had to ban him.
Can’t say I miss Khan, he came across as a thin-skinned tard intent to push the boundaries as much as possible by constantly insulting Razib. Like, if you’re that smart, why would you do that?
A big problem of this blog is that there is too much “diaspora nationalism”. It manifests itself in real life, too.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11689339/Indian-brawl-erupts-Melbournes-Fed-Square-Sikh-attacking-Hindu-nationalists.html
I always felt the few contributors who actually live in the subcontinent have been calmer and more interesting. When people are abroad, they feel alienated so start to compensate by LARPing as nationalists online. It’s pathetic.
i had thought now most of the commenters are india-based or very recent immigrants. it used to be a totally diaspora blog
You should post a survey. I am curious about the demographics of this blog.
I think Pakistan retains important social and familial aspects of its Hindu past, perhaps even better than India. Women sharing a home with their mother-in-laws is unheard of in the rest of the Muslim world, be it Arabia, Turkey, Iran or Indonesia.
Two thirds of Pakistani households have more than 6 members, as compared to only a quarter in India. Average household size in Pakistan exceeds India by almost 2.5. Joint families with multiple brothers and parents living in the same home is still the overwhelming norm in Pakistan, but such arrangements have declined in India.
Like India, this might change with higher levels of female literacy.
>Women sharing a home with their mother-in-laws is unheard of in the rest of the Muslim world, be it Arabia, Turkey, Iran or Indonesia.
Women sharing a home with their mother-in-laws- is quite common throughout Afghanistan, Iran, Central Asia, the Caucuses, Turkey and even in most Arab countries outside the peninsula. There is absolutely nothing special or unique about the Pakistani familial structure. Islamically, the brother in law is not considered a ‘mahram’ and purdah is enjoined on women from their BIL, but this factor is usually ignored.
“purdah is enjoined on women from their BIL, but this factor is usually ignored.”
Yes, and it is practices like these that make Pakistanis ‘less Muslim’ in the eyes of the Arabs 😉
//Yes, and it is practices like these that make Pakistanis ‘less Muslim’ in the eyes of the Arabs 😉 //
By this logic, everyone outside Najd is a ‘lesser’ Muslim. I mean I can flip the switch and say that stopping women from driving is less Muslim (literally the wife of Prophet Muhammad led men into war on her camel). But we don’t do stupid shit like that, and I don’t think the Arabs do that either.
Once again, when confronted with facts, Indian Hindus go about on how S. Asian Muslims are less Muslims in the eyes of the Arabs. Projecting inferiority complex. I know many think Kabah is a Shiv temple and Zeus Indira sem2sem, but let’s keep that to fantasy land. Not everything is inherited from Hinduism.
Pakistanis live in joint families, and Arabs, Turks and Indonesians dont. Do your research.
“everyone outside Najd is a ‘lesser’ Muslim”
I think there is a lot of evidence to indicate that Saudi Muslims think this way.
Not sure what you are going on about in the rest of the comment. Btw, Zeus and Indra do have common origins and similarities, but their differences are far, far more important.
arab muslims DO view themselves as more/authentic/authoritative Muslims. why are you bullshitting about this? i’ve been in masjids where arab guest speakers haranged the nonarabs for not knowing the ‘language of god.’
that being said, this is rank chauvinism and has minimal support in the hadiths and honestly Islamic history, so it’s easy to ignore. the only thing distorting the issue is gulf arab $ has made ppl dance to their tune…
This is a classic case of confusing religion with race.
Many Saudis don’t even consider their own Arab Shia compatriots as Muslim, let alone ”lesser muslims”;. This is because Salafism is puritan ideology which has positioned itself against all other schools of Islamic jurisprudence and thought. From Turkey to South Asia, from Egypt to Morocca, all Sufi inspired muslim beliefs (which is like all Islam outside Najd) are considered heretic, on a scale of mild to extreme. It’s not an ‘Arab thing’, it’s a Salafi thing. You mistake Salafi puritanism with Arab racism or some form of Muslim hierarchy. If you don’t believe me, consider the fact that Qatar invited Zakar Naik (an Indian Salafi preacher) to their worldcup ceremony and hosted him as cheif guest. They could have invited anyone of the numerous Arab Salafi clerics that are famous these days.. but nope. Didnt even make any monetary sense since he was a fugutive in India.
As for your jibe that Arabs look down on South Asians, this is mostly socio economic. They also look down on everyone else that is there doing menial jobs, Afghans, Phillipinos, Egyptians etc. When 90% of the people from a region are doing menial blue collar labour jobs, have low literacy and education, over whom they have quite a bit of power, they will naturally start to feel superior to them. The British didn’t look down on Indians or Indian culture until they started acquiring more power over them.
Razib
The recitation of the Quran is an essential part of Islam (every Islamic sect emphasizes it). Many non-Arabic speakers do it with bad pronunciation. Several Arabic words are guttural and Indo Aryan or Turkick language speakers don’t pronounce them properly, which can change the meaning of the entire word.
It is not uncommon for imams to emphasize to learn proper Arabic talaffuz/Tajweed in sermons, and it’s usually non-Arab imams that lecture most about it because they know their audience
Qureshi@,
curious to know how has the perception of sanctity of marriage changed in PK over the years. I know IK used to harangue that PK has better family values and lower divorce rates. But he himself has divorced and married >3 times. Further many in his inner circle have married each other’s wives (after divorce obv.)
afaik polygamy was/is socially acceptable. But has the avg number of husbands for a woman increased in recent decades?
@bhumiputra
divorce rates increase when women work, earn and are generally independent, so have less need for a provider husband, and less tolerance for family drama. Anecdotaly, seen less than 5% divorce rate in last generation, probably 15-20% in this generation. Several cousins and friends of mine divorced, although this usually happens within first year or so. Very rarely do I see 5 year + marriages end in divorce, even in this gen.
Polygamy is still very uncommon although everyone knows that one guy who has taken a second wife. previous gen would usually justify it if the first wife was barren, but these days some guys who are successful and religious would take on a second wife without excuse. still very rare
Imran Khan is a bit of a hypocrite though. I think he is religious in the sense that it defines his identity, but he is not gonna follow most religious commandments to a tee. Will just justify his personal ‘sins’ by saying its private matter and say Islam tells you to keep one’s private sins hidden. he gets away with this reasoning. mostly.
Razib,
The local mosque of my area was owned and run by Bangladeshi diaspora folks. We got some African Muslim guy, a Bangladeshi imam and had regular guest speakers from other places who were Jordanian or Lebanese or Iranian and stuff. I used to attend these weekly events (they used to be on Saturday/Sundays) when I was younger. A Jordanian old man used to come frequently, he was pretty chill. Actually, all the guest speakers were pretty cool. During Ramadan me and my friends would drop by for iftar, it was pretty fun. Ramadan they’d get even more people from all sorts of places.
Pretty big mosque. The Bangladeshi community purchased this property in 2008 when it was a night club and turned it into a mosque.
The site here offers me two things, ideas and data that go counter to my views, which is actively helpful. And putting my 2 cents out there for the world to see when i cant keep quiet .I make generalities, but try to stick to only a certain kinds of generalities based on certain principles. That way, i am imposing on myself a certain kind of rules. much like in physics with angular momentum being conserved and so on. And I am looking for ideas that counter my own ideas or data that goes against it. Andyou come for a certain things of value, that is the end of the story for me.
wow. six long comments in the mod list from the super rich super genius who i banned 🙂 he’s more persistent than the racist jat teenagers.
This is a classic case of confusing religion with race.
no, your whole comment assumes i’m more ignorant than you think. the salafis my family interacted with were the LEAST racist (but most religionist?) of the arabs.
the racism/religious chauvnanism of arabs comes from ‘moderate Muslims,’ like ppl in Lebanon, syria, Iraq and egypt. these are the centers of islam until relatively recently in MENA (sunni) anyway.
you keep confusing what i’m trying to say. don’t think comments are best to get across (also, my experiences are mostly american, what are your? perhaps it’s different elsewhere, idk)
that reply was for vikram though
moderate racism exists everywhere though. i dont think its arab specific. we pakistanis are quite racist as well. honestly, lot of people in my family have worked and lived extensive in the gulf among khaleejis, absolutely none of them really have anything admirable to say about the khaleeji arabs, they considered them dumb and lazy, lacking culture. I always disagree with them with such assessments because the GCC arabs have achieved overall success when many others in the same position have failed, even if that success is built upon cheap labor and shoddy human rights.
but point is, racism exists and every group is racist to a point. however issues about ”lesser muslim” and ”correct islam” is almost always related to salafism, they are the most puritan.
‘however issues about ”lesser muslim” and ”correct islam” is almost always related to salafism,’
Was it the same case b/w East and West Pakistanis ?
tbf, that was as much racism as religionism
Flat out racism. Ayub Khan or Yahya Khan were not practicing any form of Islam when womanizing, drinking alcohol, getting chummy with the Americans or locking up Islamic clerics in jail. Their comments on Bengalis not giving up ‘Hindu traditions’ has more to do with racism than anything else. They were quite high on the British martial race theories.
Race doesn’t even have to be a thing in S Asia for groups to genocide one another. Look at Punjab during partition. But yeah, for Bengal, it was both, since Hindus were disproportionately targeted.
racism does exist everywhere. *but the details differ*
eg arab melodramas have plotlines of tall blonde blue-eyed European mean converting and marrying muslim women. never heard of case where indian were treated like this.
it’s not just a salafi issue. you’re not going to convince me because i’ve actually talked to arabs from places like egypt who are not salafi (and who drink) who are candid about this.
re: not speaking Arabic. it was an arab ulem who visited and he wanted us to understand his lecture in Arabic. it wasn’t the koran. you shouldn’t connect the dots all the time, half the time you misunderstand me. though i guess for you i should be more explicit about everything because this keeps happening over and over
skin color racism has always been present in the medieval era, im not denying that at all. for example, Ibn Khaldun had some weird racist views on black african. Indians were darker so naturally they will too be singled out.
infact it’s even found during the prophetic era of islam, and Muhammad particularly rebuked racism against blacks, the following incident is narrated in both Saheeh Bukhari and Muslim hadiths:
“Once, while his Companions got together in a gathering and the Prophet s had yet to come, Khalid B. Al-Walid, Abdurrahmann B. Auf, Bilal B. Abi Rabah, and Abu Dharr were among those in attendance. The only dark skinned companion present was Bilal the Abyssinian. Abu Dharr began speaking, and Bilal corrected him. Abu Dharr exclaimed out of anger, “Even you, O son of a black woman, try to correct me?” Bilal got up, visibly upset at what was said, and said: “By Allah, I will report you to the Prophet.” He went to him and informed him of what was said and the Prophet became very angry.
Abu Dharr rushed to meet the Prophet and said “Peace be upon you, O Prophet of Allah.” He continued, “I am not sure if he responded to my greeting due to his extreme anger.” Then he said: “O Abu Dharr! Have you ridiculed him on account of his mother? Indeed you are a man in whom there remain traits of the pre-Islamic era!” Abu Dharr wept and said: “O Messenger of Allah, ask Allah to forgive me.” He left the Masjid weeping and when he saw Bilal, he put his head on the ground and said to Bilal, “O Bilal, I will not move from my position till you put your foot on my head. You are the honorable and I am the disgraced.” Bilal wept, and kissed the cheek of Abu Dharr and said: “A face that has prostrated to Allah is not to be stepped on—rather, it is to be kissed.” (Bukhari 2545, Muslim 1661, Ahmed 2143)
two points
– there is a 9th century medieval navigation manual by arabs for indian ocean. extensive talk about race/color. eg “indians in this northern city are lighter and so good-looking.” “women in sri lanka are sexually available, make sure to make a pit-stop here.”
– Iranians expressed and express color racism against arabs during and after the conquest and down to the present. this 1980s Iranian movie explores this a bit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashu,_the_Little_Stranger
thanks i will check these out
“women in sri lanka are sexually available, make sure to make a pit-stop here.”
I would think still true. For the most part, SL women are their own mistresses and independent. During British times women lost the right to own their property after marriage (a key factor for being independent) and there were Victorian morals that were idealized though practiced in the default.
Knox, (1681) says
a) mentions that the dowry was considered the property of the wife and she was free to take it away, should the marriage be a failure
b) “In this country each man, even the greatest, hath but one wife; but a woman often has two husbands. For it is lawful and common with them for two brothers to keep house together with one wife, and the children do acknowledge and call both fathers”.
c) these women are of a very strong and courageous spirit, taking nothing very much to heart, mourning more for fashion than affection, never overwhelmed neither with grief of live. And when their husbands are dead, all their care is where to get others, which they cannot long be without.”
d) Their marriages are but of little force or validity for if they disagree and mislike one another, they part without disgrace…. Both women and men do commonly wed four or five times before they can settle themselves to their contention.”
Robert Knox (1681) “An historical relation of the Island Ceylon in the East Indies”
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/14346
Knox was captured by the Kandyan King and was kept for 20 years. Escaped and wrote about life in the Hill Country.
Supposed to have inspired Defoes, Robinson Crusoe
@Razib
“– there is a 9th century medieval navigation manual by arabs for indian ocean. extensive talk about race/color. eg “indians in this northern city are lighter and so good-looking…”
IMO, not surprising, since it’s culturally neutral that men tend to like women slightly lighter than them and women tend to like men slightly darker than them (guess because of increased melanin production effect of testosterone?). Also, people tend to like people who look fairly close to themselves but maybe off just enough to be “exotic.” Women of the NW will fit this bill the best for male Arab traders.
On another note, Sri Lanka even today, per sbarkum’s comments, seems more sexually liberal than the rest of S Asia.
That verse about anti-racism was a thalli quite powerful. Thanks for sharing it.
Re arab attitudes towards South Asians, I do notice a change in attitude in last few years. As Razib noted, UAE has path to citizenship for non-arabs. Needs to be seen how it pans out. Also UAE and oman are allowing the building of Hindu temples. More than citizenship, this I believe is a much bigger symbolic change. I don’t think most Indians working in Gulf actually want to settle there. The thinking is earn, save and retire back. Mainly b/c IN and Gulf are just few hours away by air.
Another thing that I heard through grapevine is that for same job family, euros get paid more than sub-continentals.
The bigger question is do arabs differentiate between sub-continental hindus/muslims in any material terms. Do muslims get a leg up in either business and/or career?
they talk shit about hindus to brown Muslims. i know this from multiple personal interactions. often have to do with hygiene but i think it’s mostly prejudice?
This is interesting. Hindus especially trads get dinged by left for obsessive focus on ritual cleanliness. In fact the Muslim practice of multiple people eating from same plate is abhorred due to its potential for exchanging germs etc.
@bhumiputra
The trad hindu ideal of cleanliness isn’t the same as what global average expectations would be for grooming. Its such a blind spot for many indians that I know, and a big ego issue, to accept that standards are not being met. Anglo whites are probably if anything the most diplomatic about this, but from SE Asia to Africa, people are baffled by the indifference to personal presentation and body odor in particular.
>Another thing that I heard through grapevine is that for same job family, euros get paid more than sub-continentals.
this is true, but its more passport centric than racial. if you have a western passport, you have more opportunities elsewhere in the world and the opportunity cost of attracting you to live in gulf is higher, so a higher salary is offered. with a pakistani/indian passport, opportunity is limited and opportunity cost is low. salary offered is lower too. supply and demand.
I do think that gcc arabs look upto the west, because obviously west is rich and successful, but when it comes to business, racism costs $$$.
consulted in qatar in 2017. this was true. more about american than race…though there was some racial attitudes as they think american=white (we talked to a black american MD who was paid well like any american and had to prove himself a little bit more in his opinion).
>The bigger question is do arabs differentiate between sub-continental hindus/muslims in any material terms. Do muslims get a leg up in either business and/or career?
This used to happen commonly in the 90’s.. Previous gen Arabs preferred Pakistanis over Indians because Muslim.. and lot of prejudice against Hindus existed. But this policy started changing in the 2000’s.. and I think a radical change in Saudi Arabia happened after 2013 when Saudi Pak relations took a hit due to Pak’s refusal to join Yemen. Not sure how the environment is these days.. Saudis are generally more conservative than Emiratis so I guess it still persists somewhat.
UAE is a bit different, lot of well educated Indians in Dubai so difference is minimal. Also big indian presence in Sharjah.
Abudhabi is more conservative, so I would say that would be more in line with Saudi attitudes.
The trad hindu ideal of cleanliness isn’t the same as what global average expectations would be for grooming. Its such a blind spot for many indians that I know, and a big ego issue, to accept that standards are not being met. Anglo whites are probably if anything the most diplomatic about this, but from SE Asia to Africa, people are baffled by the indifference to personal presentation and body odor in particular.
one of the guys who complained about hindu cleanliness was a Palestinian (dubai) guy with the worst dandruff i’d ever fucking seen. so i just assumed it was prejudice.
I am assuming most well off Indians can afford and use deodorants. Is the contention that Hindus emit Body Odor that these deodorants/perfumes can’t hide? Or is it a problem particular to Hindus in Gulf, since most of them do manual labor work?
they used the word “dirty.” no more specificity
Maybe it is from type of food and thus sweat? I know that more AASI Indians tend to have that gene for more dry ear wax and less body odor. I’ve lucked out with that gene myself. Perhaps the smell thing is a more Northwestern phenomena? Early immigrants did disproportionately come from less aasi heavy places/castes.
This stereotype always confused me in school. When friends came over to my house, they would remark “We’re happy your house doesn’t smell!” This was like middle school kids saying it non ironically. Some fitness youtubers say they smell bad after eating Indian food. Youtuber Elliot Hulse says he smells bad after eating goat curry.
Every Indian I knew showered daily. Some of the middle aged people didn’t use deodorant. But that’s changed a lot recently too.
Interestingly, growing up in north KA 90s, I remember IN muslims were caricatured for excessive use of cheap perfumes/attars to hide the odor from not showering every day. It was considered a good idea to avoid movie halls on days of muslim festivals to avoid getting a headache.
Even more interesting that I learned on twtr thread, is that even arabs have a term called “Zankha” for the odor left on utensils after cooking meat on them. For ref.
https://nypost.com/2022/11/24/the-rancid-food-odor-thats-dividing-the-internet/
Veggie Hindus also smell this odor instinctively.
what you eat does seem to impact how you smell. east asians who met europeans said they ‘smelled sour.’ some of this is the gene for body odor (associated) is less common in e asians (minority), but the assertion was that eating cheese was the big diff. but idk.
I know that more AASI Indians tend to have that gene for more dry ear wax and less body odor.
Hmm. did not know that less body odor gene was AASI. Thought is was East/SE Asian and I have 1% SE Asian gene.
I have the less body odor even though I am over weight and sweat profusely. One of my sisters on the other hand has very smelly sweat even though she started using deodorant as adult.
I also noticed when I eat a lot of meat (beef) and booze the sweat smells for at least a day. Same with Ethiopian food, the smell does not go away for a day or so. So I think food also does play a part in body odor.
My DNA 01: Heroin Addiction, Smoking etc
https://sbarrkum.blogspot.com/2012/03/my-dna-01-heroin-addiction-smoking-etc.html
Meanwhile in the Gangetic, OBCs wilding.
Bihar education minister, from the RJD, gaslights Ramcharitmanas. Akhil Bharatiya OBC Mahasabha members in UP burn copies of it. SP Maurya who does some additional badmouthing is elevated to the Samajwadi Party National Executive.
Crickets chirping in “More Dalda, Less Dalda” heads……
LOL. If Tam Brahms would have put up half the fight (against Dravidians), Ugra shows on the blog, then things would have changed. But Alas….
The exploitation of pre-existing caste fault lines has been perfected in PB and TN. Since that is no longer sufficient from an electoral point of view, it will be expanded to other states. Lingayat as separate religion and intra-lingayat competition in KA, Maratha agitation in MH, Patidar agitation in GJ. In UP/BH, the previous caste mobilization just for power spoils has failed in 2017, 19 and 22 cycles. Now it will be turbo charged with theological basis.
On the topics of racism / arabs.
I had assumed all palestinians were levant looking and light skinned, and some of them are. a few even light hair / eyed etc. (eg Ahed Tamimi).
But many of them were similar skin color or darker skinned than me. Similar looking to gulf arabs or egyptians.
Wonder if there is intra-palestinian racism (intra-jewish racism exists for sure in israel)
Wonder if there is intra-palestinian racism (intra-jewish racism exists for sure in israel)
yes, there is some. to my knowledge it’s not a massive systematic issue, but darker-skinned Palestinians are seen as ‘less typical’? i had a close Palestinian friend who grew up in the states, most his family looks levantine/white, but he had a cousin who was darker-skinned and looked kind of indian…my friend wondered to him if he had African ancestry (almost certainly that’s it, it’s found in most Palestinians), and his cousin reacted really negatively. later my friend was told my other relatives this cousin was sometimes teased/mocked for his darker complexion.
The evil witch, Victoria Nuland, responsible for the death and destruction in Ukraine, is visiting Delhi. Pray for India.
Roy@
Curious to know where you land in the nuland vs modi/js fight?
So far Modi/JS have been able to resist the pressure from the US but it remains to be seen how long they will be successful.
Modi/JS have deftly managed to walk a tightrope.
The evil witch, Victoria Nuland, responsible for the death and destruction in Ukraine, is visiting Delhi. Pray for India.
Pray for Sri Lanka too, she just visited again.
Trying hard to curb Russia and India trade. Even the Adani hit piece maybe to reduce refining Russian crude
is catching especially amongst global investors who may swiftly reevaluate their weighting of Indian assets
Russia’s “Sanction-Proof” Trade Corridor to India Frustrates the Neocons
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2023/01/246260.html