A new post on caste at my Substack. I don’t think I have much more to say on this topic on the high level; the DNA data is now what it is. More details will come in, but we have the general outline.
It is now up to social historians to make sense of it.
(also, a new phrase for Pakistanis: “Allah in the streets, Manu in the sheets”)
I think the Rangpur/frontier zone samples will have noticably higher Asian, and it will be mainly NE Asian and lower S-Indian.
I have 3 HarappaWorld results from Rangpur. 1st is mine, one is from my friend and the other is from years back from a dude who posted on some blog.
S-Indian 43%
Baloch 27%
Caucasian 6%
NE-Euro 4%
SE-Asian 6%
Siberian 2%
NE-Asian 9%
Papuan 1%
Beringian 1%
.
S-Indian 43%
Baloch 25%
Caucasian 3%
NE-Euro 2%
SE-Asian 7%
NE- Asian 11%
Papuan 2%
Beringian 2%
Med 2%
SW-Asian 1%
.
S-Indian 48%
Baloch 28%
Caucasian 2%
NE-Euro 3%
SE-Asian 4%
Siberian 2%
NE-Asian 10%
Papuan 1%
Med 2%
On Genoplot however, my NE:SE Asian ration is like 8:1 and I have around 18% Asiatic, mainly Tibetan/Himalayan
refering to razib’s article-” the subcontinental context though, they were as different as can be, one was born on top and the other at the bottom”,
gandhi was a vaisya, which is hierarchically lower than brahmins and kshatriyas, only above shudras. so gandhi was not on ‘top’, in terms of social layers.
yeah but banias are socially dominant in guj. that’s why patidars switched from attempting to be classed as rajputs to vaishyas
(also, indians are kind of assholes. some dick actually pointed the above in response my post when i mention it explicitly in the piece; in guj, banias are the dominant social group to emulate. even if ritually brahmins are still on top of the varna stack. even when i try to address everything you fuckers have to get your word in)
Aren’t Indians allowed to understand their past for its own sake . What is the point of making this a Indian Vs Pakistani thing. Politics is in everything these days.You may personally dislike Pakistanis razib but better not to play politics with history.
You are projecting. He just pointed out that Pakistanis practice caste de facto despite professing Muslim egalitarianism; this is an attitude inherited from their Hindu forebears. Rather than being an India vs Pakistan thing, this reveals our essential unity 🙂 . We are both children of the jaati-ridden IVC.
if you make a comment like that again at me, I’m blocking you.
if you respond to me on this thread, I’m blocking you.
(anyone who responds to this reply, I’m blocking you)
What’s interesting is that despite UttarPradeshDalits and SriLankans actually being plotted right next to each other/close to each other showing genetic similarity, they are so different in real life, be it in appearance or economy, or quality of life lmao
Glad to see us Sri Lankans are pretty much Dalits
Pencil Man says
What’s interesting is that despite UttarPradeshDalits and SriLankans actually being plotted right next to each other/close to each other showing genetic similarity, they are so different in real life, be it in appearance or economy, or quality of life lmao
Thats because Sri Lanka is the country of dalits, run by dalits. We dont higher varna light skinned steppe chaps to subjugate and tell us we are stupid, dark etc.
We dont higher varna light skinned steppe chaps to subjugate and tell us we are stupid, dark etc.
And good for you! (Though I’ve never heard any stereotype of dark-skinned people being stupid, at least in India; that’s more a Western thing. Light skin seems to be purely an aesthetic preference in the subcontinent, and also because of its relative rarity among a largely dark-skinned people.)
Thats because Sri Lanka is the country of dalits, run by dalits.
I think a better comparison would be with non-Brahmin south Indians in general, no? You also cluster with them? And not just Dalits? You can call yourselves the Pioneers of the South!
to sbbarkum,
Yes! Exactly my point. Sri Lanka is an absolutely well-organized and administered country and I want to show that in the comment. They will bounce back from the trouble in recent times, no doubt about that.
This is because Sri Lanka was far from being affected by Hindutva. As far as I can understand, Sri Lanka has been Buddhist religiously culturally and idealogically for a very loooong time. Goes to show you what “dalits” can achieve if they arent being held back by their oppressive Hindutva overlords
Too much misinfo…
– dark skinned South Indians in India are stereotyped as more nerdy and else’s boorish compared to North Indians
– having similar Steppe / ivc / aasi ratio as one groups doesn’t make you equivalent to that group.
(For eg based on this post Pakistani Punjabi Dalits / lower castes have the similar steppe ivc/ Aasi ratio as Telegu Brahmins and Upper castes)
– Hindutva is a very recent phenomenon and the most hardcore hindutvadis are very anti-caste, many are also atheists. I think of them like a less violent version of Hamas.
Traditionalist Hindus are more casteist they cry on Twitter because no political power.
>”Hindutva is a very recent phenomenon and the most hardcore hindutvadis are very anti-caste, many are also atheists.”
But almost all the pro-caste people I see online are Hindutva-supporters. Not all Hindutva supporters are casteist, but almost all the casteist people online are Hindutva-supporters.
No lol. Many are anti mainstream Hindutuva and view it as Raita movement and hate modi. They hate lower castes of all religions more than they hate upper caste converts. They call all low steppe Indians “pajeets” in an unironic manner.
Hindutuva scares leftists because of how caste neutral and subaltern positive it is. They act like all the dalits and OBCs for it have been hoodwinked.
The real chicanery is by the corrupt Gandhi family, landed/upper caste state party elites, and delusional leftists.
@Rose: Exactly, but good luck getting that through on this Sanghi cesspool.
I don’t trust these raytas either. All they do is whine incessantly about reservation, point to trad casteism though and they have nothing to say about that.
I mean, if half your fucking movement is neo-Nazis, is it really that unfair to say that you are a neo-Nazi movement?
@thewarlock: Wait, so r/Chodi and r/IndiaSpeaks are anti-Hindutva subs now? Lol
“The real chicanery is by the corrupt Gandhi family, landed/upper caste state party elites”
Congress and state parties are casteist, Hindutva is even more casteist. Both can be simultaneously true. There is no contradiction here lmao.
Sumit,
lol, what was all this supposed to mean? It’s been well estabilished that the “lower-caste” Dalits of UP have the same 3 combo scores as the average Sri Lankan dude. If they the Sri Lankans have managed to do so well, there’s no reason the ones in UP wouldn’t be able to succeed lmao Hindus keep running away from the fact that it’s the caste system oppressing them and that they would be able to do fine for themselves otherwise.
Another dude also brought up Guyana and Trinidad in an old post and said that I shouldn’t talk about it because they don’t have the caste sytem. Well guess what lmao the ones that migrated to Guyana and Mauritius and whatnot were not upper caste communities but lower/lower-middle class ones from UP and Bihar and so on, not the types that worship caste that go to America where there is still discrimination along those lines and 80% are upper.
Where is the misinformation?
I really wish you guys stopped reducing cognitive capacity or success down to “Steppe:AASI:IVC” ratio or something. Intelligence is hardly a portion of those three components. In fact, you could have similar proportions of those 3 components and have massive differences in general intelligence (like 60-70% genetically inherited) because we’re talking of a few hundred SNPs here and a country as endogamous as India that you just need selection in individual communities for it to be the case.
Success of countries comes down to IQ plus institutions. The higher the mean IQ and the more uniformly distributed, the better the general pop usually reproduces and maintains stable instituions (Anglo ones really).
1. Why do you think “having the same 3 combo scores” has any bearing on success?
I think you fundamentally misunderstand both what these scores are measuring and the nature of success.
2. For the anti-Hindu stuff luckily partition of India created parallel experiments of non-Hindu states in Pakistan and later Bangladesh. So we have some room for comparison.
I like the core values of Islam (charity, brotherhood etc) but it seems to me like radical Islam is holding Pakistan back, and maybe Bangladesh also risks falling prey to it (if the Awami Party looses power)
Why don’t Muslims reign in these extremist mullahs they are doing a lot of damage to your communities? Just look at what is happening in Iran right now, it is absolutely barbaric.
Instead you want to sit here and pontificate on Hindu matters on which you are quite poorly informed and filled with identitarian bias
Sumit,
you should worry less about Bangladesh and worry more about the rights of Dalits and Muslims being infringed upon on a regular basis in India. People are LYNCHED for eating beef in India, you should worry more about that than any “Extremism” in other places, imagine having people killed for eating an essential food (protein, zinc etc) and then preaching about this.
Also, I don’t think the scores have anything to do with success. You Hindutvas really love creating your little strawmans. I think exactly the opposite which is why I used Sri Lanka and those other states as examples. Dalits in India are not able to be successful because of the continued existence of the caste system of which they are oppressed by. Without it, they would be very successful.
Also, I don’t give a flying fuck about Iran lol. What does that have to do with me? I’m a Bengali Muslim with roots in Bangladesh, not Iran. I could care less, that has nothing to do with me.
People are lynched in Bangladesh for desecrating an inanimate object.
Like imagine killing a human for stepping on an inanimate piece of paper.
What is your point ? Lol.
My original point is Pakistan and Bangladesh exist as non-Hindu countries which were formerly part of British India.
The don’t have Hindutva and therefore should be doing dramatically better and flourishing economically compared to Hindu infested India right?
And yet they are not. Why is that ?
Maybe your Hindutva oppression theory is wrong? And something else is at play.
Sumit,
People have been killed for religious reasons like desecrating sacred books even in Christian countries yet nobody gets killed for eating beef outside of India lmao that’s some real goofy shit.
Also, Bangladesh has a noticeably higher GDP per capita than India, along with a higher HDI, quality of life, life expectancy, gender ratio(more females than males, none of that Indian selective bs), lower infant mortality, nonexistent open defecation percentages as confirmed by USAID and the UN unlike India which is a haven of street shitting, and many other things.
Hindutva is a plague and it’s pretty funny seeing Hindus go “b-but w-what about Islam” lmao talk about being obsessed.
In modern times the only people that get violently butt hurt in Western Xtian countries are Muslims. Not limited to sacred books, also things like drawing cartoons (Charlie Hebdo), or just a work of fictional literature (salmon Rushdie).
Muslims are treated like little children in the West, too dumb and underdeveloped to take full responsibility for their actions so need to be made into a protected class.
Hindus are semi protected too, but to a Lesser extent than Muslims. So I think viewed as less dumb.
We had this GDP chat earlier it’s pretty close. in PPP India is better because it can make things like affordable Vaccines and Cars.
And about half the states in India noticeably surpass Bangladesh in nominal terms as well including some of the more Hindutva leaning states.
I think BD is doing decently well recently because of textile manufacturing a stable
Government (thanks to Awami league) not due to any Hindu-Muslim religious differences nonsense.
Sumit,
LOL. PPP only really applies to China and Russia, otherwise it’s a cope statistic that has little bearing on the true living standards of the people. China and Russia can make things for real cheap because that’s just how it is, India most certainly does not have that kind of natural resource, industrial manufacturing and technical skill to be on their level, don’t delude yourself. The fact of the matter is that Bangladesh decidedly surpasses India on a per capita basis. You Hindutvas keep backtracking, you implied that a Muslim nation like Bangladesh is worse than India on economic grouns when it OBJECTIVELY IS SUPERIOR TO IT.
Also, who cares? Who cares if some states have a higher GDP lmao I’m talking about nations as a whole. With your faulty logic, that would mean that there are areas within BD that is also performing much better than India. Averages matter, and the average Bengali has a great income.
That’s not even all considering India is filled with streetshitters while Bangladesh does not have it statistically speaking according to the UN/USaid, with far cleaner streets and superior quality of life.
Don’t make claims that can be easily debunked lmao Bangladesh is flourishing compared to India in terms of growth rates as well when you claimed otherwise, that apparently it wasn’t doing well economically.
Also, even outside of that, Sri Lanka has a far better GDP per capita and HDI to India and it’s a country of people who score autosmally like Dalits. The difference? They’re not oppressed by their radical Hindu overlords.
, not the types that worship caste that go to America where there is still discrimination along those lines and 80% are upper.
there’s no caste discrimination in america. this is a lie. also, if 80% are upper who are they discriminating again?
Sri Lanka is a genocidal failed state run by Sinhalese Buddhist fascists. Dalit is social category pertaining to impurity and segregation from mainstream Hindu society . genetic similarities with sri lankans are irrelevant .
Sri Lanka is a genocidal failed state run by Sinhalese Buddhist fascists. Dalit is social category pertaining to impurity and segregation from mainstream Hindu society . genetic similarities with sri lankans are irrelevant
Oooh, somebody does not like Dalit types doing well.
Just a reminder those genocided guys the LTTE Dalits, beat your sorry backside and assassinated your PM Rajiv Gandhi.
India/Indira trained and armed the LTTE to destabilize and make SL a failed state. We survived that while still having better HDI than India.
The current economic woes too will go away. SL is still the country of easy life, clean and genteel compared to any other South Asian country (except Maldives). Its clean because we dont have caste issues of cleaning ours or others shit.
Major Abhay Sapru on LTTE (Tamil Tigers) – Explained In 18 minutes by Indian Commando.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLuzM7iHm8U
I don’t like genocide mongers be it Sinhalese buddhists types or Indian hindutva types. Gandhi political family is a corrupt dynasty .I couldn’t care less about Rajiv Gandhi’s assassination.
fascinating to see lankan delusion in full display when they are a failed state who just a few days ago allowed INR-SLR interconvertibility in the rupee settlement mechanism, and when SL is currently resting on what –– 3 billion dollars of a line of credit from the indian government?
something of a proverb about glass houses comes to mind..
Speaking of that Sapru dude,
It says Sapru is a Kashmiri name and google images does show that it seems to be a Kashmiri Pandit name.
Why does this Abhay Sapru dude look like a generic Indian lmao where is MUH EXOTIC aryan Kashmiri look
I don’t like genocide mongers be it Sinhalese buddhists types or Indian hindutva types. Gandhi political family is a corrupt dynasty .I couldn’t care less about Rajiv Gandhi’s assassination.
So is it only in Kashmir and Sri Lanka you consider genocide.
Are a million deaths in Vietnam, another million of so in Afganistan and another million in Iraq not genocide. Is that because you are living in the West and brown nosing the white people.
Aryamsha
fascinating to see lankan delusion in full display when they are a failed state who just a few days ago allowed INR-SLR interconvertibility in the rupee settlement mechanism, and when SL is currently resting on what –– 3 billion dollars of a line of credit from the indian government?
INR-SLR interconvertibility in the rupee settlement mechanism is basically a SWAP deal to bypass use of the dollar. India too is doing the same with Russia a INR Ruble deal.
3 billion dollars of a line of credit from the indian government
Many are giving us hand outs, line of credit etc. We are using our natural resources, the strategic location to the best.
India is not giving us hand outs because they love us. Its because China may also make love to us. India was offered Hambantota port, and India said no thank you. Then we gave it to China and now China has a port in very strategic location.
SL has stopped servicing its foreign debts, 50% or more held by hedge funds etc in the West. So now we have enough foreign exchange.
The IMF is busy trying to give a loan to bail out the hedge fund debts. We are holding out, wanting more and less rules.
If you do visit SL, it does not look or feel like a failed state. Neither do you get beggars or people shitting on the street. Construction of many new projects. We had 20,000 Indian visitors in Nov. Mainly men, here to play at the casinos and savor the delights of the Thai hostesses.
Razib, any thoughts on Suhag Shukla’s article in the WSJ: https://www.wsj.com/articles/brown-university-discriminates-against-south-asians-caste-india-affirmative-action-britain-census-court-11671634272?mod=hp_opin_pos_4#cxrecs_s?
While making the points about the lack of salience of caste in America that you have often made yourself, it seems to (1) give a nod to Nicholas Dirks’ theory blaming the British for institutionalizing the system and (2) deny that there are any genetic differences between the castes reflecting varying steppe ancestry. Is that the only way to combat the current wokemania about caste?
more importantly, does not evidence show this was from post gupta age. That timeline is very important. in ur other article, u mention it is 3000 yrs old, that would be twice as long. so when does it begin in a significant way. true origins might be mystery. what matters is the operational way , even there different parts of the country were different.
A little tour of Rangpur City. Not exactly where I’m from but it’s in Rangpur Division, Bangladesh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0Wd4gT3ULA
the region has a relatively lower HDI in comparison to other regions of Bangladesh but I never felt that when I visited. Thought it was much better than the hellhole that was Dhaka. Seems like a lot of development has happened since then. Clean streets (with some litter here and there), un-chaotic traffic, paved and smooth roads, and just more order and organization. Sidewalks are decent but need a bit more work. Liking some of the rooftop garden projects being done.
It still needs to be much cleaner and much better. The work is not done.
Here’s an example of the rooftop gardens I’m referring to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc8tnMq-zwc
People usually create these gardens on their rooftops and balconies, and it looks pretty nice and stuff. The host is a famous dude who was always on the Bangla tv channels that my parents watched when I was a kid and he was going to different places and showing agriculture and stuff. He even went to the Netherlands and stuff a couple times.
The couple is a middle-aged couple and they’ve got themselves a nice garden. Both of them look pretty Bengali feature wise, and I don’t think they’re passing anywhere West of West Bengal/Assam, same for the host.
Nice rooftop garden.
Dual purpose as it prevents the concrete roof from heating.
sbarrkum,
Good catch! Helps with insulation too.
hardly any cyclerckshaw wallas were pedalling. are these motorised now?
The original plot razib posted shows Sri Lankan Tamils (who are a minority).
My understanding is the Sinhalese are more North Shifted and also have some South East Asian admix.
And also that highland Sinhalese are more North Shifted than low land Sinhalese.
Sbarrkum any thoughts ?
Also my understanding is that the Sinhalese and Tamils in Sri Lankan both had a caste system, is that 100% gone or still relevant in modern era?
the Sinhalese are autosmally similar to their Sri Lankan Tamil counterparts, from the results on HarappaWord/g25 we have. They are pretty much the same.
Sumit
My understanding is the Sinhalese are more North Shifted and also have some South East Asian admix.
As far as I know/read SL Tamils and Sinhalese are more closely related than to any other population.
This whole Sinhalese “we is not Dravidian Tamils” ; “We is Aryan” is post Max Muller Aryan Invasion theory (AIT) in 1853 . Some arguments to support that is the claim that Sinhalese is a Indo Aryan language. True, as classical grammatical Sinhalese is derived from Pali. However, Sinhalese is a diglossic language and colloquial Sinhalese is close and similar words as Tami.
Below the DNA admixture of Sri Lankan participants at HarappaDNA. There are 7 Sri Lankans (3 Sinhalese, 4 Tamils)
South Indian Component
1) Decreases from TN Tamil (60%) > SL Tamil (58%) > Sinhalese (55.5%)
2) Bengali’s, Kerala and TN Tamil Brahmins have approx the same (48%)
3) As expected Iranias have the least (3%). Europeans (not in this data) have 0%.
Baloch Component
Ranges from 40% (Punjabi’s) to 29.1% (TN Tamil) for South Asian populations. Sinhalese and SL Tamils are in the mid range with approx 31%.
Caucasian Component
Iranians have 41% of this component. The Punjabis have 9.8%. Southern and East South Asians have less that 5%, with Sinhalese 3.3% and Tamil 2.1%
South East (SE) Asian Component
Bengali’s have the highest percentage (4.7%) of this component reflecting proximity of borders with SE Asian populations. Sinhalese have 1.6% of SE component while, TN-Tamils and SL-Tamils both have 1.3% of SE Asian component.
https://sbarrkum.blogspot.com/2013/04/sinhalese-and-tamil-dna-admixture.html
And also that highland Sinhalese are more North Shifted than low land Sinhalese.
Never heard of that
Also my understanding is that the Sinhalese and Tamils in Sri Lankan both had a caste system, is that 100% gone or still relevant in modern era?
The Sinhalese have pretty much non existent caste identities for the younger generation, i.e.below age 40.
The most telling is the word Jati, which meant caste till about pre Independence. Now Jati means race, i.e. Sinhalese, Tamil etc.
There is a push to make the word Jati mean nationality, i.e. Sri Lankan. Even now parents can refuse to give race in the Birth certificate. I think the newer Birth Certificates dont have that box for race.
The SL Tamils both Hindu and Christian are still conscious of caste. Though against the law, some Hindu temples in the North prevent certain castes from entry. And occasionally clashes because of that.
My father a Protestant Christian Jaffna Tamil was quite caste and class conscious. If my father ever had a wish to discriminate that was overridden by my mother. No yelling and shouting, just ignored his wishes. eg entertaining all and sundry in the living room and no special plates and cups..
“ LOL. PPP only really applies to China and Russia, otherwise it’s a cope statistic that has little bearing on the true living standards of the people”
Lolololol man you are referring to my and principas discussion in open thread.
We are talking about military spending / power where usually analysts use nominal. But in some cases even there PPP adjustment makes sense.
GDP PPP per capita IS basically measuring standard of living for avg. person. By attempting to adjust for cost of living.
PPP is not relevant on a non-per capita basis or for international trade / military spending.
Like I could get into more details but I think you are just arguing in bad faith or just too identitarian or dumb.
So I will stop engaging.
@sbarrkum –
That’s interesting, regarding the word “Jati”.
The word “Jati” in the buddhist text context refers to “Birth” at least in Pali and Sanskrit. (I assume in Sinhalese as well)
Physical birth, but more theologically important, the birth of dukha (suffering) in each moment of perception part of the ’12 links of dependent origination’.
I wonder if that is also has some impact on Sinhalese usage of the word, since majority Buddhist.
In modern day India it is not used in this way at all afaik only used in the context of taxonomy. Birth is “Janma” in modern Indo-Aryan languages.
Re: Dalit IQ potential I posted it here before but I highly recommend you guys watch “Daughters of Destiny” on Netflix.
Basically about a 95% Dalit boarding school in south India called “Shantibhavan”, admission based solely on need with the aim to break the cycle of poverty in the poorest communities in South India.
Kids free given world class education, nutrition and mentoring, funded by a retired Indian American millionaire.
There is a lot of untapped potential in India. I wouldn’t write off poor people who don’t have opportunities / nutrition etc.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b49QEQsNUj0
Thanks Sumit, posting on my FB page.
There was a somewhat similar thing about how skateboard schools changed attitudes. Specially for girls, made them more confident etc.
from sbarrkum’s podcast thing,
at minutes in, the Sapru guy says ” the Tamil tigers shattered the myth of the martial races” after talking about how they were pretty much crushing the Indian special forces that were being sent in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFdR1l3vbyg
Podcast has been interesting so far, outside of the unbearably cringey Indian accented english
outside of the unbearably cringey Indian accented english
Are you an asshole in real life too?
There used to be a couple of Pakistani commentators on BP a few years ago who used to act in a similar way, but they seem to have disappeared.
Pandit Brown,
lol the accent is unbelievably cringe. Even Indian-Canadians think it’s cringe, so it’s not just my opinion as an outsider. I’m guessing you feel this way because you’re either straight up from India or a fresh of the boat kinda guy.
Sucks how there is no diaspora exclusive place out there. ABCDesis on reddit is cringe and filled with mainlanders and freshies. This place was originally meant to be for diaspora before, well, this.
The accent seems far less cringe than your character.
You can cringe all you want at the accent (what one finds normal and what one finds cringe is subjective) but if you bring it up in a forum where people are arguing about neutral issues, be prepared to be ridiculed and ignored. Because the presumption will be that you are allowing your distaste for someone’s accent to color your opinions about their arguments. Which is what racists typically do, except they tend to cringe at other peoples’ skin colors.
This goes to some extent for your views on Hindus and beef-eating too. I’m sure if we probe hard enough, we can find living “sources of protein” that you would balk at treating as such (try eating your pet dog, for instance). In most of India, the cow has that special status. We find it cringe that you guys treat that animal as simply as a hunk of meat (or source of protein). Deal with it!
Sanitation:
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.STA.SMSS.ZS?locations=BD-IN
Women’s health and education:
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.ADO.TFRT?locations=BD-IN
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.STA.MMRT.NE?locations=BD-IN
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.TER.ENRR.FE?locations=BD-IN
Economy:
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NV.AGR.EMPL.KD?locations=BD-IN
Remember the vast majority of people in both Bangladesh and India are farmers.
All this being said, I will say that Bangladesh has done well despite being the worst placed South Asian country in terms of natural resource pressures and oppressive governance (before 1971).
@PencilMan
Ironically, PPP is what matters when we look the average person’s quality of life. India is economically ahead of Bangladesh, nominal pc has seen a recent drop but as growth rate forecasts suggest India will always be ahead and widening the gap. Don’t even talk about economy. Have you seen your literacy rates btw? You can virtually create a Bangladesh-WB border with the discrepancy.
Socio-economically Bangladesh is behind India, no need to act like it’s the opposite.
Again with the Phenotype remarks, Individuals from every region range and you can’t look at extremes and Kang on it, (which I don’t even understand cause it doesn’t matter)
Bengalis minus east Asian are Punjabi Dalit Valmikis. Even Chamars are more West shifted which people like you Kang on it. Bad news for you? It reflects on phenotype. Have you seen Bangladeshis? muh weizsem as kashmiri
Religious jibes from someone whose nation adheres to the most problematic religion ever known to mankind, dont even want to comment on it
Yes, Bengalis are Dalits. Anything else, Ranjeet? lmao Indians really are obsessed with light skin, look at this doofus talking about how West Asian they are hahaha. Hindus live in a world of their own. India is the best saaar.
Also, your hypoethical is meaningless. The Tibeto-Burman ancestry is 14%, so it’s quite a significant portion of our ancestry. In every single analysis, we fall well off the South Asian cline, I don’t care about West shifted ness. We all know how Steppe-shifted Punjabis are seen in Canada, they are seen as stereotypical Indians and a looot of racism is hurled at them on social media (see Brampton and international student posts on Social media). Cope harder.
PPP applies to countries with the industrial and technical capacity and sheer natural resources like Russia or China or the US. Not shitholes like India. You need to worry about preventing half your population from defecating on your streets than anything else. India still has a lower HDI lmao
Also what the hell does “kang” on it mean” lmao you brought up how West Asian you are out of nowhere, talk about projectionn. Even the darkest Bengali types will still not look like yall/
India is a dirty dirty place. Far below Bangladesh. That’s why the GDP per capita is the way it is
@Pencilman – I would like get your perspective on why Bangladesh appears to have better HDI than India, in-spite of the 1971 civil war in Pakistan which wreaked so much havoc in East Pakistan and in which the Pakistani army targeted Bangladeshi intelligentsia; some Bangladeshi elites chose to stay on in West Pakistan, etc.
Does some of the credit belong to the long stint of Awami Party rule?
the proper comparison is pakistan, and bangladesh is geopolitically humble and allowed NGOs to do their work.
India is not a good comparison since some areas suck, and other areas are better than bdesh.
average is over
I posted this on the open thread and didnt get any replys so will try here. I ran my 23andme results in the harappaworld calculator and got:
30.01% South Indian
43.7 % Baloch
15.2% Caucasus
9% NE Euro
~1% Medeterranean
~1% Siberian
Has anyone else had similar results?
I was surprised with the high Caucasus result was expecting a higher NE Euro, for context my background is from AJK in pakistan and i am from the Jat tribe. Dont know much about the tribes and castes of the region so want to find out more. I can see from past results Jats tend to get elevated NE Euro, so where could the high Caucasus come from?
Any insight appreciated
pencilman, if you keep spewing anti-indian racism I’m going to ban you. don’t call ppl street-shitters, that’s what ppl call you too (who cares if you think it’s inaccurate)
Razib,
If you want me to I’ll stop. Your forum at the end of the day, so I’ll obey. And I won’t appeal it but I just want to say that the Indians here seem to talk a lot of trash too so I don’t think it’s onesided.
Also, I’ve never been called a streetshitter, ever. A simple graph from the UN/US agencies shows that to be false too. It’s not a matter of what I think, it’s a matter of what impartial agencies like the UN and US Aid thinks.
Also, I’ve never been called a streetshitter, ever. A simple graph from the UN/US agencies shows that to be false too. It’s not a matter of what I think, it’s a matter of what impartial agencies like the UN and US Aid thinks.
streetshitter is an internet-nazi meme. so of course you haven’t been called that IRL.
also, you made me spit my coffee out. UN charts??? that’s what you’re going to show the nazis?
honestly sometimes i feel like you are just the same as the indians you criticize. ppl are free to make whatever distinctions they want to make, but in the eyes of nonbrown ppl we’re all basically the same. that’s just the truth.
Razib,
Yeah I know and I’ve acknowledged that before. I’m talking about the reality, not the perceptions. I think I mentioned something about the cross-race effect where people of another race all look the same. The East Asians have that infamous stereotype about them (not my stereotype, its where people say “they all look the same”) and I know that to brown people, all white people are the same, be it a Finnish dude with notable East-Eurasian or a French dude.
How many people are able to tell the difference between a native of Angola and a native of Ghana? To all Americans, all Latin Americans are called “Mexicans”.
However, if somebody is exposed to these communities, they’re able to tell the differences.
when a racist is confusing you for a race that has a issue, i think the honorable thing to do is not to explain “actually racist man, I’m totally different than those pajeets you re talking about, even though i look the same.” nor should you deploy their racist terms except ironically or jokingly. you don’t seem like you’re joking, you seem to dislike lot of indians as much they dislike bangladeshis.
but going down to peoples’ level is human and i hope you’ll grow out of it.
otherwise, just cut the crap. you’re bringing down the discourse along with the dumb internet hindus that show up here sometimes.
Bangladesh has literally only had a decade of stability and it’s already got a higher HDI than India despite the fact that our homeland had one problematic incident after the other.
https://www.tbsnews.net/bangladesh/bangladesh-slips-down-spot-undps-human-development-index-492642
Here’s the graph because talking about things is pointless, a visual representation is needed
https://vgy.me/u/ic3js2
-Bangladesh has a higher life expectancy
-Bangladesh is cleaner(see above)
-Bangladesh has a higher HDI, meaning a higher quality of life
-Bangladesh has a higher GDP per capita
Even as of July 2022, Bangladesh is at 2723 USD compared to India’s 2321 USD. Yes saaar, you are very very ahead socioecnomically. lmao.
https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/india/gdp-per-capita#:~:text=What%20was%20India's%20GDP%20per,1%2C968.163%20USD%20in%20Mar%202021.
https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/bangladesh/gdp-per-capita
lmao you can’t ever stop Indians from talking about how “West Asian” they look. I swear you see it the most on Tiktok and it’s amusing. btw for that comment, what do we look like? We still look different from you, even if we are vanta-black skinned because of our different admixture components lmao. Some of the Indians are quite deluded, they literally are talking to themselves. They wanna be white Caucasians so bad. This guy just made up an argument. When did I say we are the same as Kashmiris lmao, this guy wants to be special so bad
Just lol at the delusions, not grounded in facts. Bangladesh is a better and safer place for women, it’s cleaner and more organized and the citizens enjoy a superior quality of life with the higher HDI and other factors.
-Bangladesh has a higher GDP per capita
-Bangladesh has a higher HDI
-Bangladesh has a higher life expectancy
-Bangladesh has non-existent statistical open defecation unlike in India where it is quite high, showing it to be an overall cleaner place
-Bangladesh has more women than men unlike India’s abysmal gender ratio, showing that it’s a better place for women
-Bangladesh has the same literacy rate as India, with similar levels amongst genders, showing that it’s a better place for women
-Bangladesh has almost 20% less of an infant mortality rate
I’d say my homeland is doing quite better economically and socially than India unlike some propagandists who live in their own delusions. I guess we’re not too bad for a bunch of darkies, eh? lol
The older Bengali songs are cool as hell. The newer ones are a plague.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxAdK2RIl4w&list=RDMMJxAdK2RIl4w&index=1
New singers singing old songs are pretty solid too
since i don’t participate much on the comments here, some of you don’t know, or have forgotten: I’m judge, jury and executioner. don’t fuck with me. if you piss me off, I’ll ban you. this isn’t up for discussion.
somehow these msg boards have been active and dynamic for 12 years. not going to tell assholes take over.
Razib,
Yeah I’ll admit it, I lost my cool here. Said way more than I needed to. Sorry. I’ve been working on my temper in recent times but sometimes I slip, which I apologize for doing here.
you’re young, i get it. sometimes racist jat kids come on here calling everyone here kala ooglies and shit. i ban them usually, but i assume they’ll grow out of it…
Hi Razib
I want to apologize for my earlier comments. I was projecting my own paranoia. I have learnt a great deal about genetics and history from reading your work. I will refrain from making unthinking comments in the future.
@Razib
Ror is a hindu community from Haryana, They are not from Punjab afaik.
isn’t haryana part of historical punjab?
@Razib
Yes Haryana was a part of historical Punjab. If that is the case then Telugu and Tamil regions were also the same pre-independence (It used to be Madras) , But language wise and to some extent culturally too Harayanvis are closer to Northern Rajasthanis and Westernmost UPites than to Punjabis iirc.
Correct me if I am wrong though.
I can attest. I am Marwari and my gf’s fam is Haryanvi, and they do seem to be pretty close culturally. The language sounds most like Marwari with some Punjabi and Hindi influence. What’s more, they seem to be as comfortable in Hindi as we are (and recent generations are experiencing language shift like a lot of Marwaris are as well). I don’t see this in a lot of Indian Punjabis (unless they are from an Indian state outside of Punjab).
5 comments of racist remarks. @PencilMan I can’t even imagine how you go about in your daily life.
‘That’s why the GDP per capita is the way it is’. 2800 vs 2500 massive gap yeah sure that’s why Bangladesh is such a superior nation. General growth rate estimates will be enough to humble you.
PPP matters, you don’t understand the real picture and its fine. Bangladesh has no economic centers either.
I don’t care about phenotypes since they are individual characteristic. That doesnt change the fact that different ethnicities indeed are different on average. You are the one who brings up ‘wow look at this kashmiri he looks like generic indians haha’, not me. Admit it deep down you are the one who is bothered by it, and it shows. Again the fact that you pointed sapru’s pheno out shows just how paranoid you are. It’s your own problem.
All that stuff about Indians feeling superior because of skin colour. Indians & Bangladeshi have the literally the same complexion on average. Yeah sure again I am a wannabe West Asian.
“Even the darkest Bengali types will still not look like yall”
I dont even know what you are talking about but anyways knowing you it is just another racist remark ironically stemming from self-hate.
It’s quite simple. On a global stage, both India & Bangladesh have shitty socio-economic statistics & are similar. You are the view that Bangladesh edges India based on some criterias. Others may bring out other statistics & projections. No need to go on a ‘we are good they are absolute shit haha’ rant. It’s embarassing. But that’s characteristic of you so I don’t expect anything else.
India is farther along than I previously imagined. On the statistics that really matter and cannot be easily rigged: adolescent fertility rate, energy use and scientific production, the gap seems very large.
I was quite surprised to find out that a Bangladeshi teenager is almost ten times more likely to become a mom than her Indian counterpart. This feeds into other stats like female enrollment in college. The energy use gap is also substantial, with India consuming almost twice the amount of electricity per capita.
Indian workers in agriculture and services are far more productive than Bangladeshi workers, while even in manufacturing, the average Indian worker is slightly ahead.
Bangladesh has better economic stats because far more women there tend to have paid employment in agriculture and apparel making.
Tbh Bangladesh has its own social challenges with pan-Islamist sentiment on the rise, but on the surface of it they should be much better off than India. They have a population which is ethnolinguistically and religiously homogeneous, and also lack the rigid caste system characteristic of both India and Pakistan. In today’s world, these are major advantages over a country like India, especially when both nations are at least nominally democracies which require broad public consensus to push major initiatives.
India would MUCH better off Balkanizing into smaller states which could then attempt to deal with caste issues under the framework of ethnic nationalism. From a modernist standpoint, this would work far better than forming a Hindu civilizational state, which would only bring to the fore the usual issues of balancing UC social/cultural hegemony with coherent identity in a modern nation-state.
Here is a post written by a diaspora Indian person of an “OBC” background on this subreddit mainly for diaspora called ABCDesis where he/she goes on about how people of that background has been blacklisted from community centres, jobs and religious places as a result. They also mention the 2nd gen folks also make those sorts of disparaging comments.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ABCDesis/comments/zu38mj/casteism_does_exist_in_the_diaspora/
On the Balkanization suggestion, sounds good. Would lead to a more cohesive identity and they wouldn’t need to be held back economically and socially by the backwards so-called BIMARU states, that handicap them hard.
1) it’s anon with no details (what caste? where did they grow up?)
2) discrimination in religious and community centers is not a big deal to me. there are plenty of non-indian groups that exclude outgroups, so what?
3) the jobs is the key issue. but here is the thing: the vast majority of hires in the US are not made by brown people. it’s retarded to thing this is a major issue in that context, unless you are talking about jobs at mini-marts or something. yeah, there’s probably some caste discrimination in some way their, but 99% of the time the issue is they hire relatives and extended family, so that’s de facto
I have been reading this manga called Master Keaton. it’s about this half-Japanese half-English archaelogist with a Special Forces military background who goes on different adventures around the world and it’s been surprisingly good so far, read 1 volume of it so far