It’s Bangladesh after Sri Lanka: Protests erupt over 52% fuel price hike:
Following the tragic situation in Sri Lanka, thousands of demonstrators flocked to the streets in many Bangladeshi cities when the Sheikh Hasina administration raised fuel prices to their highest level since the neighbouring nation’s independence by about 52%.
Global supply shocks due to the Russia-Ukraine conflict. The US and other developed nations will do fine, but small developing nations, not so much.
I wonder for how long the export model of small nations is sustainable. Small states have been “lucky” in the post war period because the big nations generally opened up for trade and wars of annexation more or less ended. That era is over I think.
Disconnect with the masses and not knowing how to deal with prices.
They could’ve started raising since last year, as crude prices started rising, slow and steady – giving this that and those reason. They could’ve also given a good reason when the Ukraine war started. But they dithered, afraid of ire of public and thinking prices will come down later.
This art is perfected by Modi, raised quite a lot last year with great hue & cry blaming bonds of earlier govt. which are maturing (with clueless opposition to help ofcourse) but now, no increase even though INR is depreciating.
The worst is already over. Commodity prices have peaked and are now declining.
https://blogs.worldbank.org/opendata/most-commodity-prices-fell-july-pink-sheet
The problem for Bangladesh is their inability to diversify away from textiles. India has a lot of problems but diversity of exports isn’t one.
BD is simply overpopulated and has insane density. Ideally, Bangladesh should form some kind of economic union with WB and share the land between the two for synergy. You need more land to develop. Unfortunately, that would politically be very difficult, though.
The island of Java has the same population density as Bangladesh but is significantly more developed than Bangladesh. Although that could be because they can put industries on other islands?
While Bangladesh’s population density is very high I’m not convinced that that’s a major thing holding them back.
I mean, hasn’t the Bengali on the Indian side done enough damage, that India would like to add even more Bongs from the other side?
What could go wrong..
Both BD and SL are textbook examples of economic islands choosing to sit idly next to a large “variation sink” like India.
Market ups and downs are absorbed by large demand pools that even out quarterly or yearly shocks.
But in order to integrate on a resource import like crude oil, only a monetary union will do.
That’s one way to look at it. But increasing economic dependance on India and links to the Indian market *could* lead to a case where their industry is taken over by large Indian corporations directly or indirectly and their economic elites decamp to the more vibrant Indian power centres. Sort of like how the Germany hollowed out the economies of Portugal and Greece post Euro. If they play their cards right this doesn’t need to happen but I have low faith in the economic planning abilities of subcontinental ministers.
Yes, that’s the other end of the seesaw. But overall, BD and Srilanka will gain capital and monetary stability.
*economic planning abilities of subcontinental ministers*
Are you following the current stability in Indian macro-economy vis-a-vis the Covid/Ukraine turmoil in the Eurozone?
Ugra,
SL does not need Indias “economic stability”. Despite SL’s economic instability, Sri Lankans have a better standard of living than Indians, specially among the poorer sections of society. Thats because of Sri Lankas Sinhalese inherent egalitarian outlook.
The egalitarian is possibly because of Buddhism and societal structure revolving around rice farming which all castes were involved. Remember, in Sri Lanka is Sudra country, with the highest caste (50%) of society being farmer caste. No Brahmins, no Vaisiya etc.
Starting with Magha of Kalinga (1215AD) who invaded Sri Lanka, and destroyed the northern Sinhalese kingdom and established the Jaffna Kingdom. He destroyed all the Buddhist temples and Viharas and worse established Hinduism in the North with no tolerance for Buddhists. Worse with more and more South Indian Hindus becoming Kings because of rules of succession among the Sinhalese, Hinduisms ugly head of rigid caste separation started becoming more established.
Sinhalese society has always been welcoming and allow assimilation. Obviously the most being South Indians. eg Sarath Fonseka the Army general who defeated is of recent (within 300 years) South Indian extraction. Karawe (fishing caste) and Salagama (cinnamon peeler caste. Prabhakaran too was Kariyar (fishing caste) ancestry. I doubt if the general public, specially the younger generation (below 50) know these details of caste etc, other than old geezers like me.
So, Ugra thanks and no thanks. it would be like mexicans trying to get into a small US. SL would be inundated and our egalitarian society lost.
“Sinhalese inherent egalitarian outlook”
Funniest joke i’ve read. I can’t breathe, you just made my day. Thanks, i needed that laugh.
Imagine boasting about Sinhala egalitarianism when they committed war crimes against the main minority group on the island and continue to carry out crimes against humanity, including arbitrary detention and torture, against this minority.
I don’t know enough about Sri Lankan history and maybe Hindu kings oppressed Buddhists, but the fact right now is that the Sinhala Buddhist supremacist state is colonizing Tamil Eelam and culturally erasing Tamils and Hinduism.
I think we are seeing the contrast between the 2 models in the subcontinent. IN represents the “hierarchical” model where we have all 4 varnas complimenting/exploiting(ed) each other to different degree. In individual states, peasant castes dominate but at the centre the upper varnas dominate the sinews of power. PK, SL and BD represent the “egalitarian” model where peasant castes have turfed out the higher varnas. However, instead of developing the faculties of the higher varnas, these countries have essentially outsourced these faculties to distant geopolitical patrons. In times of global macro stresses, the “egalitarian” model seems to be coming up short.
Every society needs its share of baniyas (money makers) and peasants ( who sometime double up as warriors). The Peasant lead society will be egalitarian as long as someone else is footing your bills. Similar story of Kerala, Sri Lanka and Pakistan (till the 90s). High HDI, driven by outside funding.
Bangladesh case is different as it has neither baniyas nor warriors, so there was enough social space for neo-baniyas to emerge. Pakistan has more warriors than baniyas, and even its warriors try to be Baniyas, hence the imbalance. India has baniyas and warriors, but the peasants massively outnumber both, so it doesn’t go out of whack, and keeps on chugging along.
Ah, the perennial Srilanka has a better standard of living tripe. Comparing SL sized country to India is just a joke. To repeat your jibe, if you collect all the shit from a midsized state in India, you wouldn’t need to import food from outside.
This guy is a Christian convert who espouses Black African Indian nonsense. Here are some comments on his Christian blogpost.
AnonymousJuly 29, 2022 at 10:32 AM
“(I did not know I had just left the country, after fighting my internal battles of alcoholism).
Of course Like Peter denying Christ, now many urban elites deny ever supporting Ranil in the past three decades. Now they are also busy scrubbing ther FB pages of Aragalaya participation.” You mean like you scrubbing your sordid past?
AnonymousAugust 12, 2022 at 8:41 AM
This is a grievance blog. Seems like the author lives off lonely women and his internet footprint shows a failed life in the US. That seems to be the root of his anger against America. After pretending to be an intellectual, he has anger against that group. Recently, he seems to have turned on his own relatives. Read his nonsense at your own peril.
You realize he was of the same family. Also Nissem Kalinga had ruled that fifty years earlier only a Buddhist could become king. He further invaded the mainland during South Indian wars. Thus invasion works both ways and the bigotry actually was a ploy by Nissem. However, the author above is not a Buddhist but a Christian totalitarian. As far as his egalitarianism Christians had serfdom and slavery as religious truth for millenia. The Portuguese enjoyed violating Sri Lankan women and enslaving the rest. That’s the equality he espouses.Also it’s the Siestema de Casta. The Portuguese and English also instituted a Jizya/ Mellielia payment on non-Christians. Not till the French Revolution were lower classes allowed into French Royal Churches (for example San Sulpice), families have their own churches, and Hindus and Buddhists have family temples. And given most villages are the same gotra, they are village temples. It is modernity today, and Islamic and Christian invasion earlier that created the rootless peoples flooding into other’s villages.
“But overall, BD and Srilanka will gain capital and monetary stability”
Dude what’s with the unrequited love for BD and SL? The people there clearly want nothing to do with India, and the last thing India needs are more dependant provinces with even more people.
Reminds me of the Indian nats on Twitter who said that SL should accede to India after the current crises, that’s such a bad, desperate look.
‘Reminds me of the Indian nats on Twitter who said that SL should accede to India’
Look closely, they are nationalists, but not Indian nationalists 😉
@Siddharth
It’s the empire building blood of the Cholas, duude!!
I don’t follow how “globalization” is relevant. Haven’t oil and gas markets been global for a long time, even during the Cold War? Unless a state has large strategic reserves (either through imports or local production), or is a client state of a country that does, it must necessarily be subject to global price fluctuations.
The real tragedy in Sri Lanka has been going on for decades: the crimes against humanity committed by the Sinhala supremacist government against Sri Lankan Tamils, backed with a democratic mandate from the Sinhala majority.
The quote of the day by Bhumiputra
PK, SL and BD represent the “egalitarian” model where peasant castes have turfed out the higher varnas. However, instead of developing the faculties of the higher varnas, these countries have essentially outsourced these faculties
How can India ever become “egalitarian” when even so called “educated” Indians subscribe to the Varna Dharma doctrine, i.e. Casteism. This chap thinks the upper castes have better brains than lower castes Worse, he is jealous of countries just Sudras like SL doing better in GDP/capita, HDI, Literacy etc.
Enigma says
“Sinhalese inherent egalitarian outlook”
Funniest joke i’ve read. I can’t breathe, you just made my day. Thanks, i needed that laugh.
Yea, Enigma a guy in a country where they have child beggars and child labor. Worse 60% of the population still shit on the streets.
So Enigma and Hoju here are the numbers.(if you want references for below can provide)
It is hypocritical not to consider what is happening in India as genocide and a humanitarian crisis.
The Numbers:
* 2 million children die each year: 27 million children are born each year in India of which 2 million of them do not live to the age of five. (120K (lakhs) in Tamil Nadu)
*12-60 million child workers in India: (700K (lakhs) to 3.5 million in Tamil Nadu)
*Two thirds of children are victims of physical abuse. The majority are beaten in school, and over half have to work seven days a week.
*200 million people in hunger, and over 40% of the children
*60% public defecation. (I am not joking 60% shit in the streets and open).
* The numbers for Tamil Nadu are based on population being 6% of total Indian population
Hoju says
the crimes against humanity committed by the Sinhala supremacist government against Sri Lankan Tamils,
Hoju, i would just worry about all Hindu Tamils in Tamil Nadu, a) shitting on the streets b) infant mortality c) child labor and beggars.
Just keep in mind despite all the economic problems, Sri Lankans especially the Tamils have highest standard of living in South Asia.
Yes, the Sri Lankan Govt does step in and prevent Hindu Caste Discrimination. Look up “Temple entry crisis jaffna”. In 1968 Jaffna, low-castes who were treated as outcasts and pariahs decided to challenge the might of the Vellala supremacists by staging a non-violent satyagraha at the entrance to the Maviddipuram Temple pleading that they too be allowed to enter the inner sanctum and pray to the common Hindu God/gods. There was violence, with the upper castes beating the lower castes. With a court order bsed on Prevention of Social Disabilities Act 1957, the Police headed Superintendent of Police S. Sunderalingam allowed lower castes entry to the inner sanctum.
however, the victory was symbolic. In many villages in Jaffna, people from different caste groups have their own temples to perform their rituals. In certain villages, even now, oppressed castes are not allowed to enter into the temples run by the so-called ‘upper-caste’ families or ‘upper-caste’ trustees. Even the temples where oppressed caste communities are allowed to worship, they are not allowed to carry the idols of Hindu Gods on their shoulders during temple festivals.
@sbarkum,
I see that my comment touched a raw nerve there, but Please don’t ascribe statements to me. I just pointed the reality that PK, SL and BD have not moved up the value chain. I did not say they can’t. As a “shudra” myself, I still aspire that my fellow OBCs move up the value chain. But for that to happen, OBCs need to look and acknowledge objective reality and address shortcomings.
The fellow OBCs part applies to IN OBCs. No desire to tag PK, SL guys as OBCs. Good luck to them.
Bhumiputra
I think you are tone deaf to my comment.
I was just surprised that in India, young Hindu Indians subscribe to “higher faculties of higher varnas” type thinking,
In Sri Lanka we see problems as a cause of being economically disadvantaged. Caste issues went out of door with my fathers generation in the 50’s and 60’s. Thats half a century ago. I mention caste origins because I am an old geezer (almost 64). I did not know castes of my classmates, but could guess because of what my father talked about surnames. However, most of my knowledge of caste in Sri Lanka has been thru reading academic books and research papers. .
It has been easy to obliterate caste in SL because not sanctioned by Buddhism.
1. I don’t mind criticizing India or Hinduism. I’m not a Hindu nationalist. I think the treatment of Muslims and Dalits in India is already bad and in many ways getting worse. I also agree that much of India is comparable to or worse than Sub-Saharan Africa (averaged) in terms of quality of life. You on the other hand are trying to minimize or even deny what Tamils (and increasingly Muslims) have gone through and continue to go through in Sri Lanka. I pity people who are “liberals” when it comes to other countries (omg look how awful you treat your minorities!) and “nationalists” when it comes to their countries (oh we would never do anything like that, blah blah blah).
2. There are few if any groups on the subcontinent who have been persecuted as severely as Sri Lankan Tamils. A sampling of literature, many many more sources and things to note, will keep adding as the days go by to raise awareness.
HRW:
“Under the administration of President Gotabaya Rajapaksa, Sri Lankan security forces harassed and threatened human rights defenders, journalists, lawyers and the families of victims of past abuses, while suppressing peaceful protests. The government continued to target members of the Tamil and Muslim minority communities using the country’s overbroad counterterrorism law, and policies that threaten religious freedom and minority land rights.”
Oakland Institute:
“The Oakland Institute’s first report on Sri Lanka looked at the impact of government-led efforts of “Sinhalization.” Sinhalization is a process whereby Tamil culture and history is replaced with that of the Sinhalese. Examples include: the creation of Sinhalese victory monuments, the establishment of Sinhalese signboards and street and village names, the construction of Buddhist temples and religious relics, and efforts to change the demographics, all in majority Tamil regions. In the years immediately following the war, government led efforts of Sinhalization intensified in the North and East.”
UN Special Rapporteur:
“Reinforcing the stigmatization of the Tamil identity is the continued application of the Prevention of Terrorism Act, which affects the Tamil population disproportionately. Despite the heavy criticism it has received nationally and internationally for allowing prolonged detention without due process, the Government has reportedly continued to rely on the Act to make new arrests, including exiled Tamils returning to Sri Lanka.”
“War widows and women family members of the disappeared who search for truth, justice and accountability, as well as women activists who advocate on their behalf also face particular risks. There are instances of wives and mothers of the disappeared being asked for money or sexual services in return for information. Worrying allegations of intimidation and harassment by the Criminal Investigation Division were also made, particularly in relation to former LTTE combatants. These women continue to be under heavy surveillance even today, and there were allegations of late-night phone calls and “visits”.”
however, the victory was symbolic. In many villages in Jaffna, people from different caste groups have their own temples to perform their rituals. In certain villages, even now, oppressed castes are not allowed to enter into the temples run by the so-called ‘upper-caste’ families or ‘upper-caste’ trustees. Even the temples where oppressed caste communities are allowed to worship, they are not allowed to carry the idols of Hindu Gods on their shoulders during temple festivals.
https://www.colombotelegraph.com/index.php/will-it-disappear-if-you-stop-talking-about-it-a-question-on-caste-and-ethnicity-in-jaffna/
Yes, the Sri Lankan Govt does step in and prevent Hindu Caste Discrimination. LLook up “Temple entry crisis jaffna”. In 1968 Jaffna, low-castes who were treated as outcasts and pariahs decided to challenge the might of the Vellala supremacists by staging a non-violent satyagraha at the entrance to the Maviddipuram Temple pleading that they too be allowed to enter the inner sanctum and pray to the common Hindu God/gods. There was violence, with the upper castes beating the lower castes. With a court order bsed on Prevention of Social Disabilities Act 1957, the Police headed Superintendent of Police S. Sunderalingam allowed lower castes entry to the inner sanctum.
https://www.sundayobserver.lk/2021/03/07/opinion/bogus-vellala-gandhis-reduced-tamils-abject-slaves
events in srilanka, Burma,Thailand puts in doubt the idea that buddhism is inherently peaceful, or at least the peacefulness of buddhists is false.
the caste stuff on this thread seems like a ‘when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail’ problem.
the main reasons india is in a good position is it has a large internal market and high economic complexity (relatively speaking).
Well the reason for caste analysis is quite simple.
For the longest time , Indian economists have been saying the reason for India’s poor economic indicators is down to caste, and less egalitarianism. While showcasing regions like Lanka , BD or Kerala (within India) as some sort of economic model to mimic.
Now we see the very same economic model falling flat, and India’s economy staying strong. That could mean India’s ‘high economic complexity’ is due to caste ‘hierarchy’ which has helped it sustain.
Both the arguments are false, of course. But if one is someone who hitched their bandwagon to the first, then they have to agree to the latter.
Saurav
I think you are looking at the economy and caste is not quite correct. Casteist or egalitarian society is reflected by how poorer segments and middle classes of society lifestyles.
eg: No question, Sri Lanka economy is dire straits. However, the saving grace is a two generation literate population is leaving and working in other countries, like mid-east, Romania, South Korea. The bad side is those remittance dont show up in the FX, as many are using blackmarket channels to get a higher exchange rate.
One rarely if ever hears of Sri Lankans doing heavy manual outdoor work. They tend to drivers, security guards, heavy machinery operators all which need at least O/L A/L level literacy.
The bulk of women tend to be housemaids (mid east), garment factory workers (cyprus, Israel, Romania etc). Again Sri Lankan women workers are known to be competent and literate. Because they have a basic education, when under pressure they are quick learners and fast become able to read and understand basic instructions in English.
On the flip side in India, how caste keeps the lower half of the population in poverty. eg Toilets. The govt can build public toilets, however public wont use it because of caste contamination. There are also health effects, Hindu children are more likely to get chronic disease which affects their mental development. Muslim children are less likely to get disease because they use toilets (I had a research article on this, and find it if you want).
Now to women. India does not allow poorer women to work in the Mid east or elsewhere. I know Indonesia and Bangladesh allows semi-skilled migrant work. There are two things this happens when women migrate and work overseas.
a) It empowers them so they are less likely to be ruled by men, husbands etc
b) It increases the wages for menial and semi skilled work in the home country.
So, why doesnt India allow women to migrate for semi skilled work. Caste and hierarchy to make sure the male disadvantaged remain under control pf upper classes. Or Male chauvinism a Laws of Manu.
@sbarkumm,
your impression about poverty/caste is quite dated. The gangetic belt was lagging behind in toilet usage but after 2014, government subsidies have increased the percentage of households with toilet close to ~99%. Look up India in Pixels/Stats on Twitter.
Regarding allowing females to work in middle east as maids — nurses from KL work throughout mid-east. Working in maids is not appealing to most people due to risk of abuse. Granted female workforce participation is comparatively lower in Gangetic belt than South but then it is even lower in PK. This undercuts your point about lower female workforce participation as an exclusive artifact of Hindu caste system. As we talked so many times before, this is higher correlation with turkic invasions and rule.
Overall IN has been focusing on childhood nutrition and primary education in last 2 decades.
excerpts from a The Hindu article.
For instance, villages in Gujarat, Maharashtra and Rajasthan were reported to be 100% ODF at the end of March 2018 by the SBM. But NSO data from October 2018 claimed that only 75.8% rural households in Gujarat, 78% in Maharashtra and 65.8% in Rajasthan had access to any type of latrine (such as exclusive latrine use of household; common latrine use of households in the building; public/community use of latrines without payment; public/community use of latrines with payment)
For instance, while villages in Madhya Pradesh and Tamil Nadu were declared 100% ODF by October 2018 by the SBM data, NSO data from the same month shows that this was not the case. According to the NSO data, only 62.8% rural households in Tamil Nadu and 71% in Madhya Pradesh had access to any form of latrines.
These are excerpts from The new Republic article India’s Futile War on Open Defecation
Last year, however, a study conducted in Dharmapuri, a district in the state of Tamil Nadu that ranks the highest in the state for open defecation, offered a more pessimistic assessment. The study found that 55 percent chose to defecate in the open despite having access to a toilet
It seems to be India’s most intransigent habit. Even as the country grows and flourishes, erects gleaming sky-scrapers, and churns out highly trained engineers, the government cannot get its citizens to give up open defecation. In 2015, one report estimated that 522 million Indians defecated in the open and in fields.
Mass construction of toilets is a handy metric, progress being measured, implicitly, by access instead of use. What it doesn’t address is behavioral change, and behavioral change is a particularly tricky proposition for the Bharatiya Janata Party. A Hindu nationalist party, its populist appeal is largely constructed on the idea that India is a Hindu nation and that everyone in it is culturally Hindu regardless of their actual beliefs. This premise has in turn led them to institute widespread changes which give Hinduism pride of place in state matters and sidelines religious minorities like Christians and Muslims. But Hinduism also involves the caste system. And the caste system plays no small role when it comes to open defecation.
Hoju
I am sure you will love this article about casteist Hindu majority India.
This is the link to The new Republic article India’s Futile War on Open Defecation mentioned in above comment and more excerpts.
Next door in Bangladesh, which has less than half of India’s per capita income, the problem of open defecation has been successfully tackled, reduced from an estimated 42 percent to only 1 percent. The plan deployed there was not fundamentally different from the Modi plan: large-scale construction of toilets, to make them available to every family. Some of Bangladesh’s success could be attributed to impressive village-level reeducation campaigns. But reeducation was also a feature of Indian efforts. The more obvious difference between the two countries is that in Bangladesh, the absence of caste, impurity, and contamination norms made behavioral change less onerous.
But for Prime Minister Modi and the BJP, centering their vision of India on Hindu revivalism, caste included, it would be contradictory to turn around and insist that while most aspects of Hinduism must be elevated as the best possible way to be, the caste system specifically in its relation to defecation and the emptying of pit toilets is to be surgically eliminated.
Higher caste Hindus often cannot fathom cleaning up excrement from a pit toilet, associating it with “untouchable” work. The natural consequence of this is a continuing habit of open defecation—where individuals never have to confront the task of removing the excrement and hence becoming tainted or impure. Dalits themselves have moved away from cleaning up India’s excrement. The result is a country regularly producing excrement without a means to get rid of what it produced.
https://newrepublic.com/article/153549/indias-futile-war-open-defecation
I agree. But caste-ism is still a significant problem in India. However, to me it seems our ongoing modernization is steadily chipping away at it.
Here’s wishing that India sustains the tempo.
This was posted with respect Saurav’s comment
“However, to me it seems our ongoing modernization is steadily chipping away at it.”
Lol there are several members of this forum that disprove this on a regular basis lmao.
Modernization isn’t eliminating caste, it’s just driving it beneath the surface.
Its not an either or situation.
There is greater homogenization within castes, so now u have 3 solid blocks rather than innumerable castes. Some of it is a result of greater modernization and demands of competitive politics. And yes, some of it is driving caste beneath the surface.
It’s a start
@SK: As I implied earlier, UCs are just hiding their casteism better nowadays. Believe me, half the commenters on BP would gleefully resurrect their Manuvadi Rama Rajya given the chance.
Modernity is culturally contextual, not universal. Modernity in the Indian context will adapt itself to accommodate jaativaad.
Hinduism is intrinsically inegalitarian. There will be no end to caste until Hinduism is dismantled.
That’s unfortunate. Maybe we should start yearning for more fulfilling life in the next birth then, as people of some other nation.
Looks like niku is being readied as opposition candidate for 2024. HD Gowda is also making noises about reviving the old Janata parivar. The powers that be are throwing everything in the sink at Modi in just 8 years.
In contrast, with IG and congress, it took ~20 yrs (71 to 89) for national front to emerge. Everything in Sink ->> PB crisis, judicial triggered crisis, grand coalition of opposition, global crisis spiking oil prices. Modi has done well to over-react to the PB or TN provocations, handled the macro economy pretty well.
Niku has lesser chances of emerging as vp singh though. But this is the biggest risk to Modi as it can undo his social coalition,
For those who think IN is immune from regime change due to its frontline role in fighting CN
https://mobile.twitter.com/FistedFoucault/status/1556741035329409024
Possible, but USA will be more tolerant of dissident politics in non-White Christian countries. Compare how Hungary and Poland are treated to Turkey/Saudi Arabia/Japan. Ultimately the West views these countries and even Russia as part of the same civilization so hates that these countries don’t follow its ideology anymore. Heretics are treated worse than heathens.
That’s true HJ. I think racial politics play a role. Even today, conservatives are praising Orban so they are concerned that the success of those countries will have domestic ramifications in the US.
That said, I think India will be given less generous treatment than other, less important, brown countries. This is because an India which isn’t “under control” can become another China, which the US must avoid at all costs.
I think sbarrkum’s takes on India is literally a distillation of what older folks from the 1960s/70s used to think. It has been preserved airtight….this mnemonic.
India has caste and hence….poverty.
sbarrkum only takes it a little further, he indulges in the South Asian Limbic Response. If we don’t have caste, then we must be rich! Yayy…
Reality hits different, of course.
Ugra,
If you notice its not “sbarrkum’s takes on India”, but what I read and written by Indians.
eg The new Republic article India’s Futile War on Open Defecation. an excerpt below
But for Prime Minister Modi and the BJP, centering their vision of India on Hindu revivalism, caste included, it would be contradictory to turn around and insist that while most aspects of Hinduism must be elevated as the best possible way to be, the caste system specifically in its relation to defecation and the emptying of pit toilets is to be surgically eliminated.
India has caste and hence….poverty.
when you have caste you have discrimination and all the ills that come with it.
Worse caste is concept encouraged by the majority religion of India.
That in turn leads to thinking such a Bhumiputra
However, instead of developing the faculties of the higher varnas, these countries have essentially outsourced these faculties
Yeah gods, Stockholm syndrome or what, specially as BP claims to be OBC. Worse it implies that poverty, illiteracy etc of lower castes are because the lower varnas/castes dont have the higher mental of the higher castes/varnas.
he (sbarrkum) indulges in the South Asian Limbic Response. If we don’t have caste, then we must be rich!
No caste means greater equality or an egalitarian society. So economic assistance reaches the lower economic strata. Then you have less infant mortality, better literacy, life expectancy etc. .
Bangladesh is half as poor as India, but it does not have caste.
So rate of literacy was 51.77% in 2011 and it is now (2022) 74.66%.
Infant mortality was 167/1000 in 1973 and has dropped to 22/1000 in 2022.
22/1000 live births is still high.
For comparison India Infant was 137/1000 in 1973 and is now 27/1000
In Sri Lanka Infant Mortality was 53/1000 in 1970 and was 8/1000 in 2020.
Sri Lanka is a poor country but it has first world HDI statistics, specially in life expectancy, infant mortality.
The flip side is that rich country does not imply discrimination to segements of its population. The US is a classic example of this. Despite various anti discrimination laws and affirmative action, the differences in some HDI indices are stark.
Infant Mortality rate of Whites 4.6/1000. African Americans 10.8/1000 (worse than for Sri Lankans).
Sri Lanka has just 92 prisoners per 100,000. The US has 698 prisoners per 100,000 of which close to 50% are black AfricanAmericans. There are more black men in the U.S. prisons than the total prison population in India, Argentina, Canada, Lebanon, Japan, Germany, Finland, Israel and England combined.
I think someone like Bhumiputra probably would ascribe the differences due to the lower mental faculties of African Americans compared the the higher varna/color of whiites
a guy in a country where they have child beggars and child labor.
Whataboutism Fallacy. Finger pointing ad nauseam to deflect criticism leveled at your nation is disingenuous.
India’s ethnic diversity is comparable to that of Europe and with a population comparable to that of China. Churchill cynically predicted India to tear itself apart but it didn’t. Whereas, your tiny Island with its Ethnic Homogeneity couldn’t even manage to peacefully coexist with its minorities. India has done that on an unprecedented scale. You should get off your high horse instead of digging your heels in, India’s continued existence as a Multi-Ethnic/Religious country of 1bn is nothing short of impressive.
2 million children die each year
Ok…? Genocide is planned. People dying because of a lack of healthcare infra isn’t “genocide”, its death via social&govt incompetence. OTOH Pogroms carried out by Sinlaha Ethno-Nationalists in black july was planned&systemic, and so was the indiscriminate shelling of Tamil Areas during the last days of the war. The burning of Jaffna library was a planned iconoclasm. The fact that you actually brag about Ethno-Fascist Sinhala Culture being “Egalitarian”, makes you come off as delusional.
Hoju, i would just worry about all Hindu Tamils in Tamil Nadu
TN has some of the best Healthcare&Public Distribution System
in India, they’re doing fine compared to the Lankan Tamils who are under the specter of ethnic cleansing.
oppressed castes are not allowed to enter into the temples run by the so-called ‘upper-caste’ families or ‘upper-caste’ trustees.
Compared to the foaming at the mouth Sinhala-Buddhist EthnoNationalists like Dharmapala, these upper castes are freaking teddy bears.
they are not allowed to carry the idols of Hindu Gods on their shoulders during temple festivals.
You claim that Hinduism is regressive. So, isn’t it great that they aren’t allowed to practice “Regressive” culture? I mean, i’m not mad that i’m not invited at the local meth joint.
I think someone like Bhumiputra probably would ascribe the differences due to the lower mental faculties of African Americans compared the the higher varna/color of whiites
IDK about that, but someone like Dharmapala definitely would call non-Buddhist cultures degenerate&subhuman.
“Ok…? Genocide is planned. People dying because of a lack of healthcare infra isn’t “genocide”, its death via social&govt incompetence. OTOH Pogroms carried out by Sinlaha Ethno-Nationalists in black july was planned&systemic, and so was the indiscriminate shelling of Tamil Areas during the last days of the war. The burning of Jaffna library was a planned iconoclasm. The fact that you actually brag about Ethno-Fascist Sinhala Culture being “Egalitarian”, makes you come off as delusional.”
Not just that, the Sinhala majority democratically elected the biggest war criminals from the war into office. The UN has repeatedly demanded accountability of the war criminals.
That’s the hard part to swallow. The Sinhala forces have the support of the vast majority of Sinhala. It’s not just the generals who bear responsibility.
Hoju
Just stop the shitting in the streets man that will reduce your infant mortality.
Maybe with all the money you have you could reduce child labor.
“There is a big jump in the proportion of working children from 28.2% to 79.6% because of the impact of COVID-19 and school closure.
How sad, working children. Poor Tamil children.
Meanwhile 100,000 Sri Lankan Tamil refugees get a dole.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/child-labour-on-the-rise-among-vulnerable-communities-in-tn-study/article33987590.ece
Child Labor stories from Tamil Nadu.
https://www.manitese.it/en/child-labor-stories-from-tamil-nadu
@sbarkum,
“However, instead of developing the faculties of the higher varnas”
This was the phrase that I used. By Higher faculties , I meant higher economic and technical skills. You don’t seem to understand the difference between “have not” and “can not”. You can misrepresent my statements as much as you want but it is the reality. Deal with it.
@sbarrkum
Egalitarianism is just a cloak/excuse for mediocrity – making a virtue out of a vice!
Srilanka has had very mediocre intelligentsia for almost 70 years now. This is a phenomenon from before the scourge of the LTTE, all the way from independence. A few symptoms –
– unable to handle minorities, too timid to capitalise on independence, lack of a grasp on modernity, no political tradition of dialecticism.
Why do you keep comparing stats of a 25 million strong population to a 1.35 billion strong population? Base effects will ensure that the smaller country will have better ratios.
Start comparing Sri Lanka to Bangalore or Chennai (similar populations). In spite of having caste 🙂 these two cities individually have a higher GDP than Sri Lanka. Or if you want another neutral comparison, go with Singapore.
The best states to compare Sri Lanka to are Kerala and maybe Tamil Nadu.
In the same way West Bengal should be compared to Bangladesh and Indian Punjab should be compared to Pakistan Punjab.
The big difference in recent economic outcomes in West Bengal compared to Bangladesh is very significant given that both states have basically the same history , culture, ethnicity and geography. West Bengal is especially disappointing since it had much more industry than Bangladesh at independence.
Egalitarianism is just a cloak/excuse for mediocrity – making a virtue out of a vice!
I guess that would be natural thinking for India which subscribe to the Hindu Varna Dharma concepts. Buddhists like to think all are equal and should be provided equal opportunity.
Srilanka has had very mediocre intelligentsia for almost 70 years now.
More Varna Dharma thinking, little Black, high AASI people cant be intelligent. Can you back your mediocre claims with numbers and reference.
unable to handle minorities, too timid to capitalise on independence, lack of a grasp on modernity
a)Our grasp of modernity is that better sanitation, gets better health and then better HDI. i.e. not shitting on the street is modernity.
b) A very small country we have played the game. SL chased you chaps out with their tails between the legs noh. That was not even because we were stronger, but used our brains to turn Indias proteges the LTTE terrorists against them.
c) We “handle minorities” by providing equal access to economic resources, and that is seen by equal or better HDI Yes, we fought a war against the Indian sponsored LTTE terrorist. The moment it was over, huge amount of money was poured into the North and East to develop. Much better than how India handles Kashmir.
Start comparing Sri Lanka to Bangalore or Chennai (similar populations). In spite of having caste 🙂 these two cities individually have a higher GDP .
Please do the comparison without arm waving Oh, just remember to normalize it by doing GDP/capita. I did look it up, its far below Sri Lankas GDP/capita of $3,815 in 2020, down from $4,059 in 2018.
In decreasing order, GDP/capita Delhi $3,580, Mumbai’s $1,990, Chennai $1,870 and Bengalaru $1,420 (link in next comment).
So even the GDP/capita of Indian Urban areas do not compare to whole of Sri Lanka, of which 80% is rural.
Or if you want another neutral comparison, go with Singapore.
So why not compare China to India
Ugra,
Here is the link to where I got the GDP/capita numbers
While the report shows Delhi as having the highest per capita GDP ($3,580) among the Indian cities, much higher than Mumbai’s $1,990, the national capital is the ninth lowest out of the 300 cities. The rest of the cities figure right at the bottom of the list.
https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/VZ2ZW6DSRqTj7PIxbVLcIK/Linking-urban-India-to-drive-growth.html
@sbarrkum
The Livemint numbers are from 2015. We are now 7 years in the future.
Ugra
The Livemint numbers are from 2015. We are now 7 years in the future.
So why dont you back your claims with more recent numbers.
Links and references please.
Using numbers from 2015 seven years later in 2022 for a high growth country doesn’t make sense at all, due to compounding
here are more recent numbers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_GDP_per_capita
here are more recent numbers (2020) for gdp per capita (nominal)
Dehli is at $5,300, Tamil Nadu as a whole is at $3,000.
Chennai would probably be somewhere in the middle of those two numbers.
Also even in 2015 I think the numbers that article cites are very incorrect and just seems like shoddy journalism. Here are accurate 2015 numbers
https://www.mitsui.com/mgssi/en/report/detail/__icsFiles/afieldfile/2020/06/05/2003d_suzuki_e_1.pdf
The per capita rankings of selected India cities in 2015 (7 years ago):
– Mumbai $5,328
– Dehi $4,311
– Chennai $3,224
– Bangalore $4,754
– Kolkata – $2,364
– Jaipur – $2,343
– Ahmedabad – $5,085
– Hyderabad – $3,628
I agree that India is extremely poor. India should not be giving charity to anyone, including Sri Lanka, given the level of poverty within India. Unfortunately the Indian government will continue giving aid to Sinhala supremacists like some simp on OnlyFans.
Anyway back to the main topic of this post, the flip side of globalization.
First I would reword the sentence “Global supply shocks due to the Russia-Ukraine conflict. “ to “Global supply shocks due to the Russia-Ukraine conflict and US sanctions.
eg Sri Lanka one and only petroleum plant was built by the Iranians in the 60’s. It is a configured to refine Iranian heavy crude and even Russian Ural crude. However , because of US sanctions SL is unable to import either Iranian or Russian crude, even though both countries are willing to extend line of credit.
No question because of the vagaries globalization Sri Lanka import economy is in a crisis. Since 1977 Sri Lanka drank deeply from the poisoned chalice of the Open Liberal Free Trade economy. There was no protection of local industry and even agriculture. Even something minor as turmeric was imported from India because cheaper. Higher labor costs made locally grown turmeric expensive.
So when high oil prices, US sanctions went into effect the Sri Lankas economy collapsed.
On the flip side there is global labor market. Sri Lankas literate unskilled and skilled blue collar workers have taken advantage and are leaving the country by thousands to countries like mid east, Romania, South Korea, Israel etc. Unskilled workers include housemaids and security guards. Skilled blue collar workers include garment workers, heavy machinery operators, electricians, drivers and the like*.
So, even though the Sri Lankan economy has collapsed, there is money for families sent by workers out of the country. Unhappily most are using blackmarket channels so SL does not get the benefit of foreign exchange. In 2018 worker remittances were 30% of SL’s Foreign exchange income.
Note: Hi tech workers dont contribute much to the economy. On an individual basis they do earn many times more than the average worker. However compared to the total population the number of high tech workers are minuscule, though highly visible. Pretty evident when one looks at GDP/capita of Hi tech centers like Chennai $1,870 and Bengalaru $1,420 which are much lower than Sri Lankas GDP/capita of $3,815 in 2020, down from $4,059 in 2018.
*Like I said before Sri Lankans dont do heavy outdoor unskilled manual like construction. Maybe on Sri Lankan hours, 9 to 5 and two one hour tea breaks, one and half hour lunch breaks and many beedi breaks.
@sbarrkum
The GDP figures for those cities can’t be accurate. I’ve seen others with many multiples higher showing both the states of TN and Karnataka having >$3000 GDP PC and those cities likely have >$5000. Perhaps someone can pull them up. But from a smell test point of view, doesn’t sound possible that these hubs have lower GDP than the national average.
This is not to detract from many of the points you are making. It would be a shame if people thought that the SL model stands refuted because of the economic crisis. At last, we’ve got to judge a society by what we perceive with our own senses. A certain level of dignity and comfort is permitted to the poorest SL citizens. Needless to say, there are certainly lessons to learn about corruption and risk exposure to global events.
As someone else commented, the best comparison is not to India, but to Kerala, and even on that score I believe SL performs a bit better. At the end of the day these are subjective, aesthetic judgements. What one person perceives as prosperity doesn’t match another’s. I’ve had this exact debate with many Indian friends who visited SL and balked at the idea of its successes. They sort of casually placed it in the same developmental category as places in India, whereas in my mind (and other westerners) we’d probably club it developmentally with SE Asia. Colombo looks and feels more developed than Mumbai to my eye (although the latter has far far more over-the-top wealth). I’ve visited the country prior to the civil war ending, so i wouldn’t attribute that perception to runaway borrowing and infra spending of the last decade either.
Btw, I think you may have misunderstood the comment abut higher faculties. It wasn’t a self-loathing exaltation of savarna hindu virtues. While it may not apply to SL “shudras” who run fairly sophisticated global enterprises, in India, perhaps because of competition, OBCs seem less ambitious. If anything I think it comes from being insulated from the world when one is part of a large country.
I am open to being corrected on the Chennai GDP/capita numbers.
My quote was from a Brookings Institute study, via livemint.
(link somewhere above). Just to be clear,, high tech does not create large middle class. You could run the numbers even for say US and check.
In my opinion the saving grace for Sri Lanka has been the literate unskilled and skilled blue collar workers leaving the country by thousands to countries like mid east, Romania, South Korea, Israel etc. Unskilled workers include housemaids and security guards. Skilled blue collar workers include garment workers, heavy machinery operators, electricians, drivers and the like.
They form the solid middle class of rural Sri Lanka. They use the money, to build houses. A house with a indoor tiled toilet is an aspiration and often achieved.
Many of the urban upper class decry housemaids leaving for mid east and elsewhere. Their gripe is SL will be known as country of maids.
IMHO, more power to them, its their choice and are willing to risk abuse to get ahead. And most achieve, though you do hear horror stories.
I live in former civil war border village, 40% Muslims, 40% Sinhalese (almost all Catholics) and 20% Tamil. . I first visited in 2010 immediately after the war. It was mainly mud huts, tin shacks and three small store. I bought and settled there in the beginning of 2012. Then in 2013 or so, courtesy the Rajapakses a brand new carpeted road with accesses to the national Park was built. The economy took off, new houses, about 20 stores and 10 tourist hotels (two at USD100/night). No longer does it feel like poor village.
I think there were mistakes made by Sri Lankan and Pakistani elites in the first decade after partition that have nothing to do with caste.
In the year 1956, Nehru after much convincing and agitations from many states, acceded to linguistic states in India. At roughly the same time, Sri Lanka imposed Sinhala as the sole national language and Jinnah imposed Urdu in Pakistan. Pakistan came apart in 1971. Sri Lanka almost came apart in the mid-80’s. Both the Sri Lankan and Pakistani impositions of a single national language had far reaching consequences.
In the case of Sri Lanka, the Sinhala-Tamil conflict diverted resources from economic development and eventually led to the anointing of the Rajapaksa family as the de-facto rulers of Sri Lanka. The rest is recent history.
Yes, India dabbled in Sri Lanka and also in East Pakistan. But this was after “own” goals were scored by the respective political elites of Sri Lanka and Pakistan.
There are tens of thousands of Sri Lankan Tamil refugees in Tamil Nadu and no refugees from Tamil Nadu in Sri Lanka. That should tell you something about how Sri Lankan Tamils are treated in Sri Lanka. So badly that they’d even uproot themselves from wealthy and hygienic Lanka to go to poor street-shitting Tamil Nadu. These certainly aren’t like those migrants who pass up on Turkey and Croatia for Sweden. They must be suffering from desperation of the most genuine and extreme kind.
Ha ha what a joke
Last month, at least 29 Sri Lankan Tamils at a special refugee camp within a prison in southern India tried to take their own lives in protest against their detention.
On August 18, 17 detainees at the Tiruchirappalli central prison in Tamil Nadu state tried to take their own lives using a number of methods.
Nearly 80 Sri Lankan Tamils have been conducting a relay protest for weeks now behind the barbed-wire fence at the prison, demanding their release and alleging false detention.
The ex-LTTE members were kept in special camps, two of which have been closed, leaving only the overcrowded Tiruchirappalli camp for all the detained former rebels, who share the space with other Tamil refugees.
Nearly 100,000 Sri Lankan refugees are living in India in dozens of camps across Tamil Nadu, of which nearly 20,000 are students who live in a state of despair and uncertainty about their future.
Tamil Nadu is trying deport these LTTE types.
Hoju, why dont you just keep them. They are your people noh. Plus they have probably learnt nasty habits, such as shitting on the street. So cannot be integrated into Sri Lanka.
Why are there 100K SLT refugees in India and zero TN refugees in SL? This is shocking when you consider how horrible TN is, very poor, everyone shitting everywhere, much lower category of development (lowest), inegalitarian (most), evil brahmins, most babies dying, everyone doing seppuku, etc.
Very different from the migrants who passed up Croatia for Norway.
And if the TN govt is trying to get rid of SLTs, then fuck them, too. I’m not a TN govt rep.
Ha ha what a joke
Last month, at least 29 Sri Lankan Tamils at a special refugee camp within a prison in southern India tried to take their own lives in protest against their detention.
On August 18, 17 detainees at the Tiruchirappalli central prison in Tamil Nadu state tried to take their own lives using a number of methods.
Nearly 80 Sri Lankan Tamils have been conducting a relay protest for weeks now behind the barbed-wire fence at the prison, demanding their release and alleging false detention.
The ex-LTTE members were kept in special camps, two of which have been closed, leaving only the overcrowded Tiruchirappalli camp for all the detained former rebels, who share the space with other Tamil refugees.
Nearly 100,000 Sri Lankan refugees are living in India in dozens of camps across Tamil Nadu, of which nearly 20,000 are students who live in a state of despair and uncertainty about their future.
“Even if you don’t have a job, the family can manage with the dole given by the government and use the amenities at the refugee camp. Most people don’t mind that life, but for the refugee tag they must bear.”
Tamil Nadu is trying deport these LTTE types. Just keep paying the dole and they will be happy to stay.
Hoju, why dont you just keep them. They are your people noh. Plus they have probably learnt nasty habits, such as shitting on the street. So cannot be integrated back into Sri Lanka.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/21/sri-lanka-tamil-refugees-india-suicide-tamil-nadu-camp
@sbarrkum
Let’s take Chennai. It’s a close fit to Sri Lanka in terms of the Koppen Classification.
https://twitter.com/UpdatesChennai/status/1504766054119190531?s=20&t=MwWFhFoA2xbtifW15BgfNg
In the recently concluded budget session for 2022-23, the state government declared TN’s GDP at 325 billion USD. This is a number that is in line with the overall Indian GDP at 3 trillion USD. TN is consistently in the Top 5 GST contributors.
State capitals have historically consumed the lion’s share of resources and have also contributed the bulk of direct/indirect taxes.
Niti Ayog pegs the contribution of capital cities anywhere from 30-55% of a state’s GDP.
If we take the lower estimate, then Chennai has a 100 billion USD GDP. For a population of just 11 million.
GDP per capita is at 10000 USD. This is a conservative number.
If we take another parameter, there are 700K private cars in Chennai alone (compared to 950K in whole of Sri Lanka).
The facade of Urban Indians (being poor) is a spiritual relic. It is a pretension that aided societal cohesiveness in the socialist era. A lot of other South Asians (like yourself) tap into that pretension.
Urban Indians are extremely rich, more than the average Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi. The disparity scale is humongous.
I think we are better than the Chinese at “biding our time and hiding our rise”. You have to stop believing that socialist chatter.
Ugra
Lot of arm waving and picking numbers from the air.
Your claims would have merit if you had hard data, references and links.
“Note: Hi tech workers dont contribute much to the economy. On an individual basis they do earn many times more than the average worker. However compared to the total population the number of high tech workers are minuscule, though highly visible. Pretty evident when one looks at GDP/capita of Hi tech centers like Chennai $1,870 and Bengalaru $1,420 which are much lower than Sri Lankas GDP/capita of $3,815 in 2020, down from $4,059 in 2018.”
India on the whole had a GDP/capita of $2,500 in 2022 according to the IMF
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPDPC@WEO/IND/BGD/LKA
Do you really expect us to believe that some of the richest cities in India have a LOWER GDP/capita than the national average?
Bangladesh is at $2,360 according to the IMF and Sri Lanka at $3,700. Though I do wonder how you calculate GDP per capita in USD for a country that doesn’t have any USD.
Ugra,
If we take another parameter, there are 700K private cars in Chennai alone (compared to 950K in whole of Sri Lanka).
The facade of Urban Indians (being poor) is a spiritual relic. It is a pretension that aided societal cohesiveness in the socialist era. A lot of other South Asians (like yourself) tap into that pretension.
Urban Indians are extremely rich, more than the average Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi. The disparity scale is humongous.
.
No question a few Urban Indians are far richer than their SL counterparts. However, cities have slums with huge population and obviously dirt poor.
You are supporting my argument that India has unequal distribution of wealth. Whereas, SL has equitable (can be a lot better) distribution of wealth, i..e egalitarian.
Mods I think we need a new open thread
I think this is the open thread.
@Ugra, I think sbarrakum’s arguments have some merit. The average Sri Lankan worker is considerably more productive than the average Indian one, be it in agriculture, industry or services. I attribute this mainly to their higher literacy rates. In 1950, SL’s literacy rate was 65% in comparison to India’s 12%. This could be down to caste. Before India’s independence, upper castes only petitioned the British government for educating young UC Hindu males. I wonder how this differed for SL.
We might have weathered the current financial storm better, but a lot of this might have to do with the fact that the consumption for the vast mass of our population is very low. Indians, for the most part, are just not in a position to purchase foreign goods. This insulates us somewhat from the current turmoil.
@Vikram
His arguments have zero merit.
sbarrkum is trapped in the 70s idea of India. And he picks numbers/commentary from the Internet that matches his confirmation bias.
Commentary like yours feeds his bias!
https://m.timesofindia.com/business/international-business/sri-lanka-raises-electricity-tariffs-by-up-to-264/articleshow/93454861.cms
Sri Lankan Electricity Board asked for a 800% increase. And they got approval for a 264% increase!
This is f*ing Venezuela style inflation. There is a limit to liberal shitposting – that BD and SL have better economic indicators than India.
‘We might have weathered the current financial storm better, but a lot of this might have to do with the fact that the consumption for the vast mass of our population is very low. ‘
I mean u make it as if BD and SL are massive consumption market, wrt India.
Both SL and BD immediate crisis have to do with inability to buy fuel. Which India also sufferers as well, but India’s generate enough money (and forex) to buy. Something ‘egalitarian’ and ‘more productive’ workers with high literacy rates are failing to generate.
SL per capita consumption is 3x India’s in dollars.
In any case, the bigger question is what explains SL and India’s divergence at independence with respect to human development. Was it British policy, native traditions or an intersection of both ?
Sheer sizes of population maybe?
How did you get that SL’s per capita consumption is 3X times India’s?
Comparing the HD of India and SL at independence isn’t very useful because British India at independence was made up of many difference sates that had different histories and were governed very differently.
Perhaps a better question would be why Northern and Eastern India in general had much worse HD than Southern and Western India.
It does seem to me that areas that were under princely states seem to have better
HD at independence that areas under direct British rule but maybe that is just my bias.
Saurav
Both SL and BD immediate crisis have to do with inability to buy fuel. Which India also sufferers as well, but India’s generate enough money (and forex) to buy.
India is buying crude oil at steep discount (I think $30/barrel) from Russia on Ruble/Indian rupee swap. India then refines the crude and sells at a hefty price for dollars.
Incidentally the fuel crisis has abated. There is ration system since Aug 7th and that has put a huge dent on hoarding and blackmarket. Power cuts are down from 6 hours to 1 hours. Remittances of those who left recently have started coming in, so even though prices are now twice as high (100% inflation) families are able to afford
upper castes only petitioned the British government for educating young UC Hindu males. I wonder how this differed for SL.
Free education for all courtesy CWW Kannangara.
Plus the Buddhist concept that everyone should be educated
There were a few upper class individual, including Eurasians who opposed free education. The famous quip was if we educate ‘them” who will pick the coconuts.
Incidentally Kannankara is small town in Kerala. However, most Sinhalese think that Kannangara is a “Pure” Sinhalese. SL is country of immigrants, and according to some Tamil commenters, low caste immigrants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._W._W._Kannangara#Education_reforms
by the time my comments get approved, if they get approved, the discussions have moved on. and it shows up like the comment was made when it was written, not approved, which also makes it confusing.
This whole “India has weathered the storm” has the same energy as “Modi ji has defeated covid” from Feb 2021.
Let’s not get too hubristic about it. It’s disappointing what’s happening in SL or BD. Hopefully it won’t happen here but we shouldn’t get carried away.
They are sort of different issues. On Covid , Modi hands were tied that they cannot instantly manufacture and distribute vaccines.
In the current crisis, if push comes to shove, Modi would rather burn through India’s entire foreign reserves (to keep inflation low) , than burn through his political capital. Something SL and BD would have done too , had they had any ( foreign reserves)
Foreign trade as a % of GDP matters i suppose For India its something like 18% export/ 22% import. For SL the split is like 23%/29%. My guess is that India having ~25% of exports being IT services made it quite resilient during the pandemic. Conversely, SL having tea as ~20% of its exports was risky.
I think the whole SL is corrupt and took too much debt is a bit overplayed. They got hit by a triple whammy of covid, loss of tourism and US anti-inflationary measures.
That being said, Sri Lankans should realize that most Indians like their country and there are genuine benefits to them from more openness and integration.
It’s fine. Smaller countries always have an inferiority complex that manifests itself as a superiority complex with regards to their larger neighbors. Canada with US, Ireland with UK, New Zealand with Australia, Austria with Germany, many such cases!
‘That being said, Sri Lankans should realize that most Indians like their country ‘
Most Indians have no views about Sri Lanka, apart from Indians from that one state in the South, whose views we all know.
girmit
where did you get India IT exports are 25% of GDP.
India IT exports; USD 149.1 billion in 2021
India GDP in 2021: USD 3173.40 billion
Thats 149.1/3173.40 =0.0469 i.e. 4%.
So Indias IT exports are just 4% of GDP.
The references for above numbers
https://www.statista.com/statistics/320753/indian-it-software-and-services-exports/
https://tradingeconomics.com/india/gdp
Now for Sri Lanka.
IT services export: USD 1 billion
GDP in 2021: USDD 84.52 billion
So percentage=1//84.52=0.011 i.e. 1% of GDP
Worker remittances in 2018; USD7.1billion (see image of SL FX)
Worker remittances =7.1/84.52=0.084=8.4% of GDP
So IT exports are just 1% of Sri Lankas GDP.
Thats compared to 8.4% of GDP for worker remittances.
Finally, Tea cannot be 20% of Exports.
All agri exports (that includes rubber, coconut and spices) are 12% of foreign exchannge income. (see foreign exchange income link below).
References for above SL numbers.
https://tradingeconomics.com/sri-lanka/gdp
https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/sri-lanka-telecommunications-and-information-technologyhttps://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/sri-lanka-telecommunications-and-information-technology
Sri Lanka Foreign Exchange Earnings 2018
https://imgur.com/gallery/x5fyhMR
testing to see if any of my replies will show up
Its crazy how this devolved into an India v SL debate, especially when most Indians are rather sympathetic to SL’s plight and wish them nothing but the best.
I echo girmit’s comment about SL looking and feeling like it belongs in a development category above India’s, even South India (except maybe Kerala). Going back a few years, Colombo did feel like a much more liveable city than most larger Indian cities (couldn’t see any slums or beggars, orderly traffic etc). Even cities that were synonymous with the war like Jaffna and Trinco felt genteel and calm with very decent infra like roads and hotels, very different from mid-sized towns and cities in TN. The average SL chap, whether rural or urban did seem to me to be living quite decently in a frugal (as opposed to flashy) sense, I don’t know how much of this can be attributed to baseline societal mores, different treatment under the Raj, etc.
That being said, the SL commenter’s yawnworthy posts about India did have the ring of one who’s bought into the worst sort of stereotypes about India from a couple of decades ago.
Sorry Siddharth
Most of the negativity was directed at Hoju and Enigma.
They are Fixated on Tamil Eelam.
So when my guns turned on them collateral damage for others too.
Thanks for the positive impression of SL.
cheers sbarrkum
sereno barr-kumarakulasinghe
It’s great that they belong to a higher development category, but that does not justify the attempted genocide on the Tamil Hindu minority; the war crimes committed against them; the ongoing crimes against humanity being committed against them.
Its crazy how this devolved into an India v SL debate, especially when most Indians are rather sympathetic to SL’s plight and wish them nothing but the best. I echo girmit’s comment about SL looking and feeling like it belongs in a development category above India’s, even South India (except maybe Kerala). Going back a few years, Colombo did feel like a much more liveable city than most larger Indian cities (couldn’t see any slums or beggars, orderly traffic etc). Even cities that were synonymous with the war like Jaffna and Trinco felt genteel and calm with very decent infra like roads and hotels, very different from mid-sized towns and cities in TN. The average SL chap, whether rural or urban did seem to me to be living quite decently in a frugal (as opposed to flashy) sense, I don’t know how much of this can be attributed to baseline societal mores, different treatment under the Raj, etc.
That being said, the SL commenter’s yawnworthy posts about India did have the ring of one who’s bought into the worst sort of stereotypes about India from a couple of decades ago.
There’s no question that Indians generally like the Sinhala supremacist state. The Indian government gladly gives them the money, food, and fuel they need to commit more crimes against humanity.
Ha Ha Hoju and Enigma
My suggestion is you do Pooja to the BBC so that Tamil Nadu gets a RajaRaja Chola or a Prabhakaran. Then maybe you can have an independent Dravidastan with its own Army. Maybe (its a big maybe) you can invade Sri Lanka and establish Tamil Eelam as a part of greater Dravidastan.
Too bad the current lot like you Hoju and Engima are such pussies. Credit where due, Prabhakaran had big cojones. But then he was a Sri Lankan Tamil.
So at the moment you hop up and down mindlessly, claim genocide or what ever, UN this or that or what ever, nothing is going to happen. Worse, the Central Govt of India will not do anything either as they dont trust Tamils Indian or Sri Lankan. When Prabhakaran and the LTTE terrorists bit the hand that fed them, that was it, no more support for Eelam
Too bad old chaps, suck it up.
“So at the moment you hop up and down mindlessly, claim genocide or what ever, UN this or that or what ever, nothing is going to happen. Worse, the Central Govt of India will not do anything either as they dont trust Tamils Indian or Sri Lankan. When Prabhakaran and the LTTE terrorists bit the hand that fed them, that was it, no more support for Eelam”
I don’t think calling out a genocide is hopping up and down mindlessly, although I’m sure the people who carried out the genocide and those who supported the carrying out of the genocide would like to make it seem so.
On some level you are correct that nothing will happen. The UN is toothless to hold Sinhala war criminals accountable. The Sri Lankan government and the majority of the Sinhala population despise the Tamil minority, so there is no hope of any meaningful change coming from within. And the Indian government dislikes the Sri Lankan Tamils as well (and probably Indian Tamils even more so).
But there is still value in getting the story out. As an example, the great investigative work done by journalists, activists, NGOs, the UN, and other governments has made it abundantly clear that Sri Lankan Tamils are persecuted. In Western countries that take in refugees, this mountain of evidence is useful in determining whether they should grant asylum to Sri Lankan Tamils. Sri Lankan Tamils tend to have a very high acceptance rate in Western countries that take in refugees. And it’s in large part because of the investigative work that backs up their claims.
This has enabled hundreds of thousands of Sri Lankan Tamils over decades to flee to other countries and live a dignified life, no longer being afraid of being tormented by Sinhala Buddhist supremacists. And that means everything to each and every one of them.
So there are many ways one can still contribute. I’ve tried to contribute by doing some pro bono work helping refugees when I worked at law firms; I give a bit of money to organizations that help settle them once they get to Canada, things like that. But there’s always much more one can do.
sbarrkum’s numbers are farcical. How does he expect us to believe that some of the richest cites in India have a GDP per capita of $1,870 and $1,420 when India as a whole has a GDP per capita of $2,500 in 2022?
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPDPC@WEO/IND/BGD/LA
The fact that India has a GDP per capita of $2,500 even after being weighed down by extremely poor and populous states like Bihar and UP means that the GDP per capita of the richer, less populous, southern and western states like Tamil Nadu and Gujarat must already be approaching $4,000.
By extension the richer cities in these richer southern and western states must have GDP per capitas at least approaching $6,000 which is much more than the $3,700 that SL had before the crisis.
The best I could find were these numbers from 2019. No idea if there is a reliable estimate for cities. But given the current crisis the richer Indian states including Tamil Nadu should have already overtaken SL in terms of nominal GDP per capita.
https://statisticstimes.com/economy/india/indian-states-gdp-per-capita.php
After all how do you measure the per capita USD GDP of a country that does not have any USD.
Infact given that the SL rupee has depreciated almost 50% since the start of the year it would not surprise me if the SL GDP per capita measured in USD is now less than India as a whole or even Bangladesh.
The numbers I gave were from a Brookins Institute study. You know the country many of you chaps are citizens or aspire to be..
I think many including in SL have inflated ideas of the value IT services.
eg
India IT exports are just 4% of GDP
SL IT exports are just 1% of GDP
SL worker remittances are 8% of GDP (7 billion)
References and links above (a reply to girmit)
Rai, your link claims Delhi has a GSDP of INR 316,650
Thats gdp/capita of USD 3,968. Just barely above 2020 SL GDP for whole country.
After all how do you measure the per capita USD GDP of a country that does not have any USD.
GDP is based on income, not on FX reserves
Infact given that the SL rupee has depreciated almost 50% since the start of the year it would not surprise me if the SL GDP per capita measured in USD is now less than India as a whole or even Bangladesh.
Rai You really need to upgrade your knowledge and education.
“The numbers I gave were from a Brookins Institute study. You know the country many of you chaps are citizens or aspire to be.”
The numbers you gave were at best laughably outdated to anyone with access to the internet and common sense.
“Rai, your link claims Delhi has a GSDP of INR 316,650
Thats gdp/capita of USD 3,968. Just barely above 2020 SL GDP for
whole country.”
https://statisticstimes.com/economy/india/indian-states-gdp-per-capita.php
Firstly the GSDP of INR 316,650 that you quoted is at constant prices not current prices.
Secondly the table clearly lists Delhi’s GDP per capita as $5,817 in 2019. It is more in 2022 while SL’s is much less.
“GDP is based on income, not on FX reserves”
GDP in USD terms is calculated based on current exchange rates. What is the real exchange rate of the SL rupee when you can’t go to the bank to exchange it for dollars?
“Rai You really need to upgrade your knowledge and education.”
Do you even know how GDP in USD is calculated?
The value of the goods and services produced in SL in rupees are converted to USD using the rupee dollar exchange rate. Now SL had a nominal GDP per capita of around $3,800 in 2021 before the massive devaluation.
What do you think the SL GDP per capita is today after a more than 40% devaluation?
The USD earners like tourism, or tea exports or remittances would not be affected but all other parts of the SL economy are now producing much less GDP in USD terms.
table clearly lists Delhi’s GDP per capita as $5,817 in 2019.
So Apples to Apples
Colombo Metro area stood at US$8623 and purchasing power per capita of $25,117
The Colombo Metropolitan area has a GDP (PPP) of $122 billion or 40% of the GDP, making it the most important aspect of the Sri Lankan economy. The per capita income of the Colombo Metro area stood at US$8623 and purchasing power per capita of $25,117, making it one of the most prosperous regions in South Asia.
http://www.cbsl.gov.lk/pics_n_docs/latest_news/press_20110712e.pdf
Infact given that the SL rupee has depreciated almost 50% since the start of the year it would not surprise me if the SL GDP per capita measured in USD is now less than India as a whole or even Bangladesh.
Maybe, we will find out next year.
Somehow, I doubt it Sri Lankan are resilient lot with high literacy.
All this GDP issues are not going to take our huge lead on HDI indicators like child mortality 8/1000 compared to 52/1000 for India.
Seriously, I can’t believe IN folks are bending backwards to show that IN is better than SL in some gdp metrics. I am not discounting the value of these metrics. They give directional data but clearly they do not capture the complete picture. I suspect this is something the authors of these metrics know. It is something like how Krishna have Abhimanyu only the knowledge to enter chakravuyha but not how to exit it.
At the end of the day, ask yourself who is better off, a citizen in DL suburbs or BLR or Chennai Vs someone in Colombo.
Seems like no one in this thread is capable of understanding that two things can be true at once.
The Sinhalese can simultaneously be ethnocentrists and racial/religious chauvinists, and also at the same time internally maintain a more egalitarian society than that maintained by the various Hindu communities of the subcontinent.
There is no logical contradiction here.
Regardless of whether Hindus are egalitarian or not, the Sinhala supremacist state committed war crimes and continues to commit crimes against humanity against Sri Lankan Tamils. They are colonizing Tamil Eelam and erasing Tamil culture and Hinduism.
Hoju
Instead of worrying about Tamil Eelam, you should worry about the shit (pun intended) in Tamil Nadu
Are you one of those Tamils who are happy that Rajiv Gandhi was murdered by your darling LTTE terrorists. You know because the Indian People Killing Force (IPKF) killed Tamil civilians and raped SL Tamil women
Pretty cool noh, how the Sinhalese got the LTTE to turn on.the IPKF.
The global Labor market. Remember, this money goes direct to the families pocket. Thats in contrast to one may works for a big time export company, say auto industry. In that its the owners and management who gets the lions share. Workers, get a pittance.
No wonder the Bangladeshis are making great strides in HDI. The workers are getting the all benefits of their labor in their pockets. So better houses, toilets, education etc.
======
Bangladesh receives $813 million in remittances in 10 days of August
In July last year, the country received $1.87 billion from Bangladeshi nationals abroad.
Data showed that Bangladeshi expats sent $2.59 billion back home in July 2020.
In July, $2.09 billion in remittances came in through the banking channel, the highest in last 14 months
https://www.dhakatribune.com/bangladesh/2022/08/12/bangladesh-receives-813-million-in-remittances-in-10-days-of-august
It is Friday night in SL. So some unrelated chill.
used to listen to Millie Jackson as a teenager (1975) and this particular song, If Lovin you is Wrong (1974). There was this DJ Eric Fernando who played this song often on the radio. I just loved the smooth rhythm and never listened to the words.
So after 30 odd years listened and still love it. The words make sense too.
This was a comment by a very very dear friend in the US Sonia Rivera Arango. Never forgotten how tolerant, even better welcoming Sonia was when I came totally drunk with Anette Bent,, 1989 or so I think. Andy Arango, Sata Capoeira, Ju Maat, and A Dre Rango.
Regarding Millie Jackson, I saw her for the first (and last) time at the Apollo Theater many years ago. I had purchased tickets with some friends to see Isaac Hayes who was very popular when his recording of “Shaft” became a big hit with both blacks and whites. On the bill with Isaac was Millie Jackson who was unknown to me and was I ever surprised when she began to sing and with each song her gestures and language got dirtier and dirtier. Not surprisingly, the audience loved her – the dirtier she got the more they clapped and screamed. When she finished her act, the audience kept asking for more and more. While I am not a prude by any means, she was too raunchy for me. I stayed only because I had paid premium for the ticket and wanted so much to see and hear Isaac Hayes.
I don’t know if Millie Jackson is still performing or, for that matter, if she is still alive but, if she is, she knows how to drive the audience wild.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard this song before it’s a good blues song and I like it. used to listen to Millie Jackson as a teenager (1975) and this particular song, If Lovin you is Wrong (1974). There was this DJ Eric Fernando who played this song often on the radio. I just loved the smooth rhythm and never listened to the words.
So after 30 odd years listened and still love it. The words make sense too.
This was a comment by a very very dear friend in the US Sonia Rivera Arango. Never forgotten how tolerant, even better welcoming Sonia was when I came totally drunk with Anette Bent,, 1989 or so I think.
Regarding Millie Jackson, I saw her for the first (and last) time at the Apollo Theater many years ago. I had purchased tickets with some friends to see Isaac Hayes who was very popular when his recording of “Shaft” became a big hit with both blacks and whites. On the bill with Isaac was Millie Jackson who was unknown to me and was I ever surprised when she began to sing and with each song her gestures and language got dirtier and dirtier. Not surprisingly, the audience loved her – the dirtier she got the more they clapped and screamed. When she finished her act, the audience kept asking for more and more. While I am not a prude by any means, she was too raunchy for me. I stayed only because I had paid premium for the ticket and wanted so much to see and hear Isaac Hayes.
I don’t know if Millie Jackson is still performing or, for that matter, if she is still alive but, if she is, she knows how to drive the audience wild.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard this song before it’s a good blues song and I like it.
=======
This is Slow Tongue which used to hear on the on the Radio in 1975
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c8cKm4qC9
These are some of Millie Jacksons risque stuff.
Millie Jacksons version of Classical Music: London, 1984 (You have to listen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oohc_T0jj4g
Maybe the so so stuff. (1983 Slow Tongue )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEwuJpgsBu4
Wonderfully written article talking about the last days of the Sri Lankan Civil War. This is the same Sinhala supremacist state that the Indian government simps for.
https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/sri-lanka-massacred-tens-thousands-tamils-while-world-looked-away
“With the UN expelled and international journalists banned, the Sri Lankan government hoped and believed that what would happen over the next 138 days, as they made a push into Tiger-held territory, would remain a secret—a war without witnesses. But there were witnesses, survivors and perpetrators alike, and they had cameras and cell phones.”
“By the middle of January 2009, with the Tigers in hopeless retreat, the Rajapaksa government declared the first of a series of what they called no-fire zones, into which they encouraged as many as 400,000 Tamil civilians to gather “for their own safety.” But instead of protecting these no-fire zones, government forces relentlessly shelled them, all the while insisting, implausibly, they had a policy of “zero civilian casualties.”
“Innocent Tamil civilians died by the thousands, in what some regard as nothing less than a genocide. Episodes from that massacre were preserved like scenes from a nightmare in short video sequences, uploaded at necessarily low resolution on satellite phones during brief breaks in the shelling.”
“In one of the videos, two young girls, held back in their bunker in case another shell falls, scream in fear and anguish while in front of them the dead and terribly injured lie prostrate. Then one of the girls recognizes one of the damaged bodies in front of her. “Mama!” she screams.”
“And then there is a final terrible video, shot by a Sri Lankan soldier on his cell phone as a grotesque war trophy. Isaipriya and Gunalingam have been stripped naked—apparently raped—and then executed. They lie in a pool of blood. “I would like to fuck it again,” says an off-camera Sinhalese voice.”
And the war criminals who carried out these war crimes were celebrated and put into office by the egalitarian, hygienic, and oh-so-developed Sinhala Buddhists.
Even better was Indian People Killing Force (IPKF) killing Tamil civilians and raping SL Tamil women.
Pretty cool noh, how the Sinhalese got the LTTE to turn on.the IPKF.
Confirmed you are a Indian Tamil who is happy that Rajiv Gandhi was murdered by your darling LTTE terrorists. You know because x
Hoju says
Tamil minority, so there is no hope of any meaningful change coming from within. And the Indian government dislikes the Sri Lankan Tamils as well (and probably Indian Tamils even more so).
But there is still value in getting the story out.
The “poor persecuted Tamils” story was over when the war ended in 2019. You know when the head honcho LTTE terrorist supremo Prabhakaran and his family were executed. Just a little tip, executing terrorists is not a war crime.
Now all countries realize Tamils are just economic refugees.
Australia: Boat chaps are captured and sent back. Those who manage to land on Aus soil are sent to prison in Christmas Island.
India: Trying to deport its 100,000 refugees
US. EU etc; Do not process Tamil refugee applications. One has to get in as illegal immigrant by overland journey thru Mexico or Eastern Europe in case off EU/UK.
Prabhakaran must have done a whole lot of bad Karma as his whole family got executed. in contrast JR Jaywardane who was behind the 1983 pogrom against Tamils, died of old age in his sleep. Ranil Wickremasinghe, JR’s nephew was part of the group that burnt the Jaffna Library. Even after loosing his seat in last elections he has become the President.
Estate Indian Tamils in the Hill Country. Now about 5% (1 million). Half of them got deported inn 1971. India accepted them with great reluctance. IMHO, they have the least access to resources like good schools, hospitals. Many are illiterate, do back breaking work for starvation wages. However, no one seems concerned about them, least of all Sri Lankan Tamils. Why no concern
I’ve tried to contribute by doing some pro bono work helping refugees when I worked at law firms;
Ho Ho, the truth comes out, pro bono work my foot. If you want money do the Ukrainian refugees. Lot more money in it. White, almost all female (pretty too). thats the flavor of the year. Tamils have be relegated to has beens.
Sri Lankan Tamils have among the highest rates of acceptance as refugees in Western countries. A major issue is that even if a Sri Lankan Tamil comes to a Western country with a bogus claim, they will still have a strong claim after-the-fact because the Sinhala supremacist state sometimes detains and tortures failed asylum seekers.
There is a mountain of evidence attesting to the cruelties of the Sinhala supremacist state against Tamil Hindus, backed with a democratic mandate from a bloodthirsty and cruel Sinhala populace.
I’m glad to devote some time and money to helping Sri Lankan Tamils escape the cruelty and torment of Sinhala supremacists, and hopefully others do too.
And in the US SL Tamils get withholding of removal status. Almost every single one of them. Just establish that you are a Sri Lankan Tamil from the northern part of Sri Lanka.
Ha ha making money from refugees. Lot of it noh.
Filing refugee claims, then filing more appeals, thats chink chink.
No different from what the Tamil LTTE terrorists did. People smuggling . It was USD 15K to get you of the country. Then when in the West more money to be paid monthly. They had their own lawyers, who paid a percentage of the fees back to the LTTE.
Are you a LTTE lawyer , if I had your name could find out.
So a lot advertisement of the “horrors” in Sri Lanka means more money pouring in.
The best part is when these “refugees” get residency or citizenship off to Sri Lanka for a holiday.
I have cousin who runs a refugee org (oferrindia.org and oferrceylon.com)* Lives the good life runs around in a huge LandCruiser with a driver. He is back in Sri Lanka and lives at our ancestral house. His wife is no longer around. She is the daughter o EMV Naganathan another Tamil politician. Dont let that Tamil Hindu name fool you. Naganathan’s original name was Hensman, Protestant Christian as is my cousin
Refugees are big money business. No different from Oxfam, March of Dimes etc. Pennies on the dollar to the needy.
Good for you Hoju, making the big bucks from “helping” refugee. Spread the horror stories, then there will be more money coming in to your pocket. There is always the gullible, though it seems the game is up with India
*OfERR. The India website has Eelam. The Ceylon site has Elangai
ORGANISATION FOR EELAM REFUGEES REHABILITATION
vs
ORGANISATION FOR ELANGAI REFUGEES REHABILITATION
It was pro bono, meaning that it was done without any remuneration, in part because most of them are poor and in desperate circumstances. And the donations are just that. How sad to deny and minimize the war crimes and crimes against humanity perpetrated, and then mock those who secure safe haven from the cruelties.
It was pro bono, meaning that it was done without any remuneration, in part because most of them are poor and in desperate circumstances
Hoju big joke, noh. Yes the refugees are poor but specially in Canada they have a huge support system and deep pockets.
The refugee business is big business and big money. eg the guy who runs a refugee org (oferrindia.org and oferrceylon.com) in India and has a pretty cushy lifestyle. Huge Toyata Land Cruiser with a driver. Eat out at top restaurants.
Hoju, you forget I am a Tamil and quite a few cousins living in Toronto. Plus, visited Toronto a couple times around 2000 during the height of the war. So I get the inside stories.
You don’t even know the basics of what’s happening in your country much less Toronto. How can you deny all the evidence of atrocities committed by the Sinhala supremacist state against Tamils? Literally directing them to places where they were supposed to have safe haven and then endlessly shelling it and killing tens of thousands. Militarizing the north and the east, arbitrary arrest and detention, torture, etc., continues unabated. Consider some self-reflection rather than reflexive chauvinistic ramblings.
“ask yourself who is better off, a citizen in DL suburbs or BLR or Chennai Vs someone in Colombo.”
The average Sri Lankan is much better off than the average Indian due to the superior productivity of the Sri Lankan agricultural worker vis a vis their Indian counterparts + remittances. But the average person in this country does not live in big cities.
Citizens in any Indian metro are substantially better off the average citizen in Colombo. Indian cities are much more economically dynamic regions. Sri Lanka ranks 82 on the economic complexity index in contrast to India at 40. India is a real outlier in South and South East Asia when it comes to economic complexity.
Overall, the main thing holding India back is the woeful rural productivity in the Gangetic plain.
@Vikram
Agree to your points, but must consider why India’s metros are so great for opportunity. Its kind of the flip side of inequality here that if you speak good English and are quasi competent you will get a job somewhere, because there are fortunes being made arranging captial, building brands and selling goods and services to the billion people who can’t compete with you. SL is more developed, and the metro vs hinterland differences are probably not as stark. The population isn’t growing fast and the country isn’t big enough to have frontier markets or network effects to scale and take over foreign markets.
@girmit, IIUC you are referring to autarky in India. Of course autarky has slowed India’s economic expansion, as it would do anywhere else. But the trade off is more security and stability.
You mentioned English skills as the primary indicator of earning potential. It is important to note the circle of English competency in India has been expanding, with Dalits and tribals perhaps more proficient today than the average OBC, but still less so than the upper castes.
I would be interested to know if you think the superior human development in SL is due to native traditions (as sbarrkum seems to think) or colonial policy differences.
superior productivity of the Sri Lankan agricultural worker
Is that sarcasm.
SL hs extremely low productivity, specially compared to SE Asia.
Heck we even import rice.
The only thing we dont import are veggis and fish because they spoil.
I think we import tinned fish and dry fish from India
Delhi’s GDP per capita as $5,817 in 2019. (rai has the link above)
Colombo Metro area stood at US$8,623 and PPP per capita of $25,117
“ask yourself who is better off, a citizen in DL suburbs or BLR or Chennai Vs someone in Colombo.”
I guess the question can be divided into many parts.
a) Better by which income segment
b) Quality of life, eg pollution, clean water etc..
a) In the upper income segment, DL and other Indian cities probably win hands down (I think). Rich Indians are richer than their SL counterparts like Ugra said..
In the middle and low income, I think SL cities, do better. Remember even Colombo is only 1 million, a small piddling town in India.
No other city per se, just kind of suburbs.
b) Quality of life; Sri Lankan city wins hands down. Minimal pollution. Clean water for everyone, including low income. Minimal slums, or what we think of as slums. Clean beaches in Colombo and Galle.
This is a comment from Siddarth. He visited a few years after the war.ended
Going back a few years, Colombo did feel like a much more liveable city than most larger Indian cities (couldn’t see any slums or beggars, orderly traffic etc). Even cities that were synonymous with the war like Jaffna and Trinco felt genteel and calm with very decent infra like roads and hotels, very different from mid-sized towns and cities in TN.
=====
even I cant believe, places are this small.
Living in rural SL they all feel too crowded to me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Sri_Lanka
Seems like Vikram and sbarkum have missed my point. My simple point was that folks in IN are not having to wait in long lines for petrol. Nor do they face uncertainty around other essential supplies like medicines and food etc. Individual SLs may be rich due to remittances but SL has to buy above mentioned supplies as a country not as individuals.
Petrol lines are over since about the beginning of August.
There is ration system with QR code using smart phones.
Two ships of Russian crude due in next couple of day. 100,000 tons of crude on 14th night and 120,000 tons due around 23rd to 29tth. Refining in Sapugaskanda will resume..
Wow so many comments but not a single one on Rushdie’s stabbing. Lol, navel gazing has reached new heights on BP!
Anyway, glad Rushdie is out of danger but what a world to hold grudges on a single person over 30 years.
What happened in SL was entirely predictable since China lent them money. India lacks strategic vision to not let SL to default to China (ie buying the port instead) and now China can engage India closer to home on one aspect of Indian defence that India has advantage on, while they take over Taiwan. Also get to secure Malaya straits once gets hold of Taiwan. Operation String of pearls is finally being activated.
Things are going to get much worse for everyone soon before they get better. But folks are entertained over petty arguments of social superiority. It is also hilarious how one Sri Lankan can engage so many Indians, law of conservation of Ninjitsu in effect. Lol.
One hero fights many goons. Lol.
Violet
Sri Lanka is a very very small country, though the perception is that we are much bigger. Population wise, 22 million (too many in my opinion) about the size of greater Mumbai.
We have had 500 years to play the great game because we are in a strategic location. Portuguese, Dutch and finally the Brits. The only reason Brits completely took over was because helped by traitor South Indian Chetty Tomby Mudali, a direct ancestor of former President JR Jayawardena
The history of how the Sinhalese played one European power against the other is taught from around Grade 5. (No Ramayana or Mahabharata).
Now to Debt
Market Borrowings (International Sovereign Bonds) 47%
Asian Development Bank 13%
China 10%
Japan 10%
World Bank 9%
India 2%
ISB are high interest (~10%) and SL has defaulted on them.
The big holders of ISB are BlackRock, JP Morgan Chase, and Prudential (United States), as well as Ashmore Group and HSBC (Britain) and UBS (Switzerland)
China interest 3%.
10% of Debt is about the same as Chinese held US debt 13% and UK debt 10%
The port project was offered to India. China jumped in.
There was no question about default on the Port.
The west leaning liberal economy govt of 2015-2019 needed money.
To fund consumption and keep voters happy (still lost big time in 2019)
The west was not will to fork money out.
So the West leaning PM who had bad mouthed the Chinese bum sucked.
The Chinese had not forgotten, they wanted their pound of flesh, the Port.
The Chinese have deep pockets, plus they are not dependent on the vagaries of a democracy and keeping voters happy.
They own many ports all over the world. eg Port Darwin, Australia, Piraeus, Greece; Haifa in Israel.
US, Europe, World bank etc borrow from China and then lend it back to us third worlders at high interest rate SL cut out the middle men and went direct to the source.
Videos of papare bands at cricket matches.
No idea if Sri Lanka won or lost. I am not a cricket fan
The music is based on hindu kavaadi, jazzified with trumpets and some african origin baila beats thrown in.
sri lanka papare band in action after finished 2ndT20 match sri lanka vs pakistan 13/12/2013
women also have brought musicals to the party, sorry cricket match.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agrxbyolvKA
Papare Band Melbourne – After Party in to the night…. (Sri Lanka tour of Australia 2017)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulH3CU_KkN4
Violet
over petty arguments of social superiority.
I dont think we are much better than anyone one else.
The big difference is we think all have abilities and opportunities should be provided to develop those abilities. So more social capital.
Most Indians dont get Sri Lankans Island mentality.
The oft repeated “Win or Loose we Booze” says it all.
Ever seen a video after Sri Lanka looses a cricket match.
One would think Sri Lanka won the match.
Papare bands and dancing.