Colleges and universities across the US are moving to ban caste discrimination:
Another time, Pariyar brought up his experiences with caste discrimination during a classroom discussion about the trauma of racism and sexism. Some South Asian students in the class, he said, reacted as though caste discrimination was completely foreign to them. He felt they were effectively gaslighting him. And when he tried to organize a conference on issues of caste, Pariyar said he got little support from other South Asians.
The story starts out with the experiences of a Dalit from Nepal who seems to have immigrated to the US. Many of the instances of caste discrimination in the US seem to be from fellow Nepali immigrants. It is possible that immigrants from Nepal bring some caste attitudes? Obviously. But when you switch to the context of talking about caste with Indian Americans born or raised in the US, they may actually honestly not understand much what it means. The piece is flattening the experience of a recent immigrant with Indian Americans, and this flattening and conflation is what’s going to happen if caste becomes a protected class more broadly.
Later on in the piece:
The opponents, who included alumni, professors and community members, argued that discussions about caste unnecessarily divided South Asians and that caste discrimination no longer existed. They claimed that caste was a construct of British colonialism, even though it had existed for millennia, and insisted that the resolution would instead provoke hate against Hindus on campus.
Krystal Raynes, a student at Cal State Bakersfield who currently serves as a CSU student trustee, wasn’t familiar with caste and caste-based discrimination before that meeting. But the language and line of reasoning she heard that day rang familiar.
“It reminded me so much of the discrimination happening against Black people in America,” she said. “Black students being gaslighted, [being told] your experience isn’t discrimination, your experience isn’t oppression.”
There are a few issues here. Indians quite often engage in what we’ll call “denialism” about caste and how it shapes Indian society. When you go around claiming caste was a construct of British colonialism, and discrimination no longer exists, you’ll seem crazy to people. Even though the reality is that in the US making caste a protected class cause huge problems, obfuscating or whitewashing the reality of caste in India does not help your argument in America.
Second, Americans are really just reinterpreting caste in the context of black-white relationships in this country. It’s not about India, it’s about America, and some Indian Americans (the founder of Equality Labs) are engaging in “cultural arbitrage” to to provide a “product” that American administrators can “consume.”
But when you switch to the context of talking about caste with Indian Americans born or raised in the US, they may actually honestly not understand much what it means.
A large chunk of Indians born in India but living in US might not know much about caste either since they’d mostly be from protected upper middle class backgrounds.
Caste consciousness seems to be a bit high in certain groups like south Indian Brahmins or Jatts or baniyas.
Usually the first encounter of most Anglophone Indians with caste happens only when they sit for competitive entrance exams to public universities. They then realise that they are in ‘general’ category and complain about affirmative action.
A lot of times, folks who couldn’t make it to higher ranking public universities hold life long grudges.
The typical discrimination is of the form of considering students from reserved categories as being less meritorious. This could probably have consequences in recruitment later in life.
The thing to note here is that the discrimination here is not due to the specifics of the jaati but due to the perception that the person had it easy as qualifying marks in reserved categories are lower. A person from the same jaati might be treated differently if he/she chose not to avail of reservation.
I have rarely ever seen anyone from such a background be explicitly casteist (some do exist).
This is different from the kind of discrimination lower caste folks experience daily in the rough and tumble of the real world.
A recent example – I have been having a busy time at work. Wanted to employ a cook to pack lunch for me in the mornings for the month. Decided to trial one lady.
The next day, the security guard in my building and my maid both come and tell me that the particular lady belongs to a lower caste and I shouldn’t invite her inside the house.
This is weird because I don’t know if these folks are from very high castes either. But this is sort of what happens on a day to day basis in small town India.
Caste consciousness seems to be a bit high in certain groups like south Indian Brahmins or Jatts or baniyas.
What would you consider as caste consciousness? Just knowledge of what caste one belongs to, or active discrimination of other people on the basis of caste?
I knew growing up that my family was Tamil Brahmin, but it had no salience in my life other than the fact that we used to occasionally practice rituals that my classmates’ families did not. I was never attached to those rituals myself and abandoned all the traditions I grew up with after my teenage years save vegetarianism. I didn’t even know that Iyers and Iyengars were different sub-castes until later in adult life (they were just names I had heard offhand; nobody bothered explaining them to me.)
I knew theoretically about the varna system, but I internalized pretty early in life that it was a bad thing. I couldn’t have guessed anybody’s jaati by looking at them or knowing their names (most of what I have learned about it has been on this blog really).
The only salient discrimination I encountered in life was of growing up a Madrasi in North India. And even that was very mild, and less than what my mother experienced in the 50s and 60s (based on what she told me).
On a lighter note, whenever I see this kind of tone from a lot of UCs, I am reminded of the scene from Decoupled where the “jatt” driver asks Madhavan his caste. Madhavan says he does not know. The driver responds that only UCs can say that kind of thing 🙂
I think we would know who ranks highest is caste hierarchy opportunism
I have no problem being mocked or criticized if one does it with intellectual honesty. Using words like “tone” are the opposite of that.
My comment could be summarized as: I perfectly well know my own background but I’ve never cared about others’ because it just doesn’t figure among the things I find interesting about people. I don’t really know about castes, but I’ve been around fairly diverse groups of people (many of whom I count as friends) in religious terms. Your comment about some scene in “Decoupled” seems very different (if not the opposite of) what I said.
So can you try not to be an asshole in the future and read comments properly and respond in a more precise way?
I wasn’t referring to TBs. TBs don’t typically do stuff like caste bumper stickers on their cars.
What would you consider as caste consciousness? Just knowledge of what caste one belongs to, or active discrimination of other people on the basis of caste?
The knowledge of what caste one belongs to + asserting some sort of difference basis that. Don’t think active discrimination occurs amongst the socio-economic class we are talking about.
Genuine question: does anybody in India not know what caste they belong to? Not knowing or caring about (1) what it means and the traditions it embodies, and (2) castes of other people you encounter, are separate things. It’s like if somebody in the US claimed they did not know what race they belonged to. Wouldn’t that sound ludicrous? Whereas, if someone said they knew their race (like 99.9% will), it says nothing about they are racist?
Genuine question: does anybody in India not know what caste they belong to?
Yes. This might be a generation gap and age thing.
I know plenty of people in Delhi/Bangalore circles who have no clue what their caste is. Sometimes people get wiser about these things through their 20s and 30s.
In fact, I just met today a 20-something person who works in the impact sector and teaches underprivileged kids in some locality in Delhi. We got talking and the question arose about the caste of the kids she teaches. She had no clue. She then admitted she didn’t know her own caste either.
Fair enough. You may be right about the generation and age thing. I’m over 40, so I’ll take your word for what 20-somethings in India are like.
It probably then also has to do with particular castes, like southern Brahmins, as you surmised in your first comment. Unless the family has gone completely atheistic (or at least irreligious), it is impossible to not know that one is a Brahmin when life is a sequence of particular rituals at home and in temples. Also, thread ceremony for males.
Prats: “I know plenty of people in Delhi/Bangalore circles who have no clue what their caste is.”
Indian parents arrange marriages according to caste.
“Sometimes people get wiser about these things through their 20s and 30s.”
Right around the time their marriages get arranged.
“I knew growing up that my family was Tamil Brahmin, but it had no salience in my life…”
The salience comes when marriage is arranged. The only way to get rid of caste in India is to outlaw arranged marriages.
in the US the security guard is likely to ask if the arab woman in the hijab is your sister.
this is why the importation of caste as a protected class is ridiculous
Yeah this is going to be a mess. The issue is that “caste” is so associated with “Indian” that the major effect of highlighting it will be to stigmatize Indians as oppressors.
Basically what will happen is that liberal Whites will ask you annoying and intrusive questions about “caste,” while browns at work/school will use it to settle scores and attack you, eg falsely accusing a CompSci professor or IM Resident who gave you an average grade to be a “casteist oppressor.”
(Speaking for myself, I only learned my “caste” at 16, but it hasn’t really made an impact on my life that I can see, people think I’m Muslim more often than not. Though that might change now…)
(I’m also skeptical that caste discrimination is a major deal, because the people arguing that it is have only anecdotes and sampling bias-ridden surveys. For argument’s sake, perhaps we can say that some Cupertino FOBs have more retrograde views than the rest of us. But I don’t understand why all of us have to suffer because of some reactionary FOBs.)
“ The issue is that “caste” is so associated with “Indian” that the major effect of highlighting it will be to stigmatize Indians as oppressors.“
The first fallout of the whole issue will be the academia. The very same folks who have pushed for these regulations. Once it’s comes back to bite them, they won’t know what hit them. Indian academia in the west is choke full of anti Indian intelligentsia anyways.
In the industry I think Indians working are suave enough to circumvent all this. The only other fallout I see is in schools, where caste discrimination is at the lower end of discrimination that children will face. They will face the same old bullying of racism etc.
If a client asked me about caste, I would look at the statute. Here is one of the important ones:
42 U.S.C. § 2000a All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.
I would ask if caste is race, color, religion, or national origin. From what I know of caste — and it is all from reading — I think it falls within those rubrics. The question I would pause on is how narrowly can those words be parsed. I.e., you might argue that caste is quite any of those things. Given the nature and purpose of the statute — it is intended to create a society where everyone is judged on individual merit and actions — it should be read broadly.
I would advise a client that it is not permissible to segregate or discriminate on the basis of caste.
Indians should learn to value to leverage , lead and having asabiya. Build Asabiya, get leverage and lead. Judge or be judged. Form communities and get them to campaign and vote in a particular way. In a way, the attack on these people might serve as an impetus to getting them to unite and act. Otherwise one need not worry as was the case till now. If the democrats know which side has the vote, money , they will behave. And all these attacks come from democrats/ white liberals. Also, open a new front – reparations for blacks, strict limited quotas for whites in universities and positions of university administrators and professors . Be an accelerationist . Until the white liberals pay a deep price, wokism will continue. You have to go after to implement quota restrictions to whites as both professors and as students in universities, even the fear of it will get them to behave. See this for what it is, an attempt to tame the rise of Indian americans and bring them down. Perhaps, some of the smarter Indians with wealth and brains can finally get down to deal with the issue instead of running away to greener pastures. This will spread from USA to rest of the world. So, no more running. reductio ad absurdum has to be shown through real costs. Until then, we shall sink further down.
White liberals/democrats are not the ones who introduced this. Indian students are. They have faced casted based discrimination from other Indians on campus and they have spoken up about it. It’s better to nip this in the bud while Indians are still a very small minority in the States and get it all squared away before more Indians immigrate here, become a larger minority and the problem gets out of hand.
And caste based arranged marriages should be completely outlawed.
The only thing I have ever been sure of till now is that, people wont abandon their delusions and high horse syndrome until they have to pay a very deep price for it. Principled politics was always a fashion, worked for brief periods of time. True principle of politics has always been Leverage , it is the foundation for all political bargain. Those who are atomized and can no longer unite for common causes multiple times for generations to come shall suffer the woke. Without leverage you lose the power to correct aberrations and abominations that come with every new liberal fad.
Out of curiosity, how many people here are married? How many have had an arranged marriage? If your marriage was arranged, was it arranged according to caste? If so, why? If your marriage was not arranged, was your parents? Was that according to caste? What about your grandparents? What about your kids? Did you arrange their marriages? If so why? And if so, were they arranged according to caste? And if so, why did you factor caste into the arrangement?
Do you feel that arranged marriages according to caste should be abolished in India? Do you feel that the US government should be made aware that some immigrants to the US are bringing the arranged marriage custom here? Does it need to be outlawed here as well?
I have met many Indian Americans who come to India and start preaching casteless Indian American society to the Indian society here but the funny thing is the intermarriage rates among the UC Indian American and the LC Indian American have not shown the “casteless”nature of the society. UC Indian Americans tend to marry outside the “Indian race” more than inter-caste.
There are hardly any LC Indian Americans. Religion and language are biggest diaspora dividers for recent immigrants