I might as well mention that I’ll be doing a Pathan genetics and history room on Clubhouse in a bit over 5 hours. Clubhouse is now open to anyone on all major platforms.
I might as well mention that I’ll be doing a Pathan genetics and history room on Clubhouse in a bit over 5 hours. Clubhouse is now open to anyone on all major platforms.
https://twitter.com/omarali50/status/1428843031105478659
“LOL. Westernized Indians are absolutely brilliant at this game.. They could entirely replace the rest of the Woke Professorhood/priesthood and do it in style.. Mashallah. Brahmin supremacy for the win ;)”
@Prats,@Bhim
Less-Hindu wokes still beating the more-Hindu wokes , hands down..
She is a prof at Oxford!
Eventually humanities will loose all credibility just like (modern) art has.
There will still be money to be made but ‘normal’ people will start seeing the banality and futility of this circlejerk.
Bhadralok, Mallu and Tam-Brams are ‘trans-racials’ i.e. gora people’s souls (mistakenly) born inside the bodies of brown people.
Jhumpa Lahiri now describes her as Bengali-Italian. Her pronouns are ‘iish…..’ (in Aishwariya’s tone in Devdas)
It’s a reverse Sonia but somehow the exact same. What a paradoxical mindfuck
I don’t think it is about assimilation either. Where is the assimilation when Tam-Brams go to Kenya or Singapore or when Bengalis were in Burma or even right next to Santhals. A lot of Indians in the US have this innate desire to bleach themselves, to become white, or atleast raise their children to be white. This is especially true of the Bengalis. Brown people fresh off the boat with the fakest accents are almost always Bengali.
Choosing to wipe their asses with paper, blaspheming against our true lord and savior ‘the bidet’.
Gora inside! **tin-tin** (intel ad sound)
Reminds me of incident from my undergrad.
Was talking to this Indian guy from Mumbai (iirc) with a thick Indian accent and he asked me if I spoke Hindi ?
I proudly said I can speak conversational Hindi (my family is gujju)
He even more proudly said he only spoke English (his family is goan)
I was struck by how strange it was that he was proud of the fact that he was monolingual in English and not speaking any Indian language despite being born there, and even more sad that he was so proud of speaking English with a thick Apu-like accent, which is considered comical in America.
I didn’t really interact with that guy after that.
Apparently Ms Oxford whats-her-name does not watch much porn. I do, say about half hour every two days or so, just porn hub.
One gets prompted for I guess the popular searches. Desi, Desi Village, Arab, Latina, Dark Latina, Gypsy the brown list seems endless.
Also quite likely, Ms Oxford whats-her-name is dating or married to a white guy. Seems like these woke South South Asians wring their hands about not being the desirable types. Maybe not to their own.
At some point people have to get bored of this shit, right?
On the genetics angle, a small contribution:
Ran mclust on some mds output (global; all regions represented).
Regarding our topic of interest, there are 5 clusters.
Cluster 1 includes an Iron Age sample from Turkmenistan, all the Pamiri East Iranians (Shugnan, Rushan, and Ishkashimi), the Yaghnobi people of Tajikistan, the Tajiks proper of Tajikistan, the Panjsheri Tajiks of Afghanistan, Ghilzai Pashtuns from Afghanistan, Durrani Pashtuns from Afghanistan, Khostwal Pashtun from Afghanistan, Commentator/Seinundzeit, Mohmand Pashtun from Pakistan, the Tarklani Pashtun from Pakistan, Uthmankhel Pashtun from Pakistan, a majority of Yusufzai Pashtun from Pakistan (like 60%), a majority of the HGDP “Pathans” (like 60%), Urmur East Iranian from Pakistan, the Kho Dards from Chitral, and the Jat and Ror Indo-Aryans from Haryana.
^ We could call the above cluster “Central Asian Iranic”, since it includes all Tajiks with little-to-no East Asian, all unadmixed Pashtuns (whether Afghan or Pakistani), and all other distinctive Iranic pops in Central and South Asia (the Iron Age sample from Turkmenistan; the Urmur Iranian speaker from Pakistan). The only odd members of the group are the Jat and Ror of Haryana; definitely a result of their boatloads of steppe ancestry, and very low AASI. Kho are also Indo-Aryan, but they’re geographically Central Asian (so I wouldn’t consider their membership in this cluster unusual).
^ Cluster 2 includes Punjabi Jatts, Saidu_Sharif_IA, Khatri, Gujarati Brahmins, Kamboj, Gujjar, Punjabi_Lahore, the Kohistani, the Kalash, some of the Yusufzai Pashtun (like 40% of them), and some of the HGDP Pathans (like 40% of them).
Clearly a northwest South Asian cluster.
Cluster 3 includes Brahmin_UP, Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu, Kshatriya, Kanjar, Mala, Madiga, Maratha, Saidu_Sharif_IA_o, Piramalai, Pallan, Pulliyar, and Paniya.
^ The true “Indian cline” cluster.
Cluster 4 includes Persians from Bandar Abbas in Iran, the Makrani, the Baloch, and the Brahui.
^ We could either call it the “Balochistani” cluster, or the “southeastern West Asian” cluster.
And cluster 5 includes the Bonda and Birhor; an Indian Austroasiatic cluster.
I’m calling these clusters “1 through 5”, but that’s not the original numbering from the output (obviously).
Furthermore, if anyone is curious about Mclust itself, here’s some material:
https://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/01/comparison-of-mclust-with-finestructure.html
https://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/fastibd-analysis-of-balkanswest-asia.html
Concerning the output itself: the results above indicate that Pashtuns in both Afghanistan and Pakistan constitute parts of the “Iranic” Central Asian continuum.
^ Looking at other results across various methods, Pashtuns are close to the Pamiris, and virtually identical to the Afghan Tajiks with minimal East Asian-admix (the western Pashtuns resemble the eastern Farsiwan, and the eastern Pashtuns are nearly identical to the Panjsheri/Pagmani/Laghmani Tajiks).
Using ancient pops to model Pashtuns:
Western Pashtuns
47.4% BMAC
27.4% Steppe_MLBA
20.8% IVC_periphery
4.4% MNG_North_N
Central Pashtuns
39.4% BMAC
36.4% Steppe_MLBA
20.2% IVC_periphery
4% MNG_North_N
Eastern Pashtuns
33% BMAC
32.8% IVC_periphery
30% Steppe_MLBA
4.2% MNG_North_N
^ MNG_North_N is East Asian. Steppe admix ranges between a little under 30% to a little over 35%, IVC-related admix ranges between 20-30%. Biggest chunk of genomic ancestry is always from something very close to BMAC (the pre-Indo-Iranian civilization of Central Asia).
Assuming that IVC_periphery is 25% AASI, that would put the western and central Pashtuns at 5% AASI, and the eastern Pashtuns at 7.5% AASI.
^ Of course, that’s assuming that “AASI” is real. Automated qpgraph suggests different.
If anyone is curious, I could post the dotfile for some representative qpgraph topologies. Very interesting stuff (and very different from the picture that we get in the current literature).
Isn’t it arbitrary to end cluster II at Guju Brahmins, when UP brahmins aren’t that far off from them? I would imagine (2/2 to disparate component mixing) that there is more distance between groups in cluster II than any of the other clusters. It seems strange to make it one giant cluster.
Phenotype of Jats and Rors of Haryana is really stand out as well in the groupings. When I’ve been to Delhi, yes some can pass among others in their group but most pass fine among N Indian general castes.
thewarlock,
That’s a fair point.
For what it’s worth though, Mclust “discovers” the clusters itself.
“Assuming that IVC_periphery is 25% AASI, that would put the western and central Pashtuns at 5% AASI, and the eastern Pashtuns at 7.5% AASI.”
Which IVC_periphery component did you use? I thought Eastern Pashtuns get between 15-20% AASI. Besides, Western and Central Pashtuns get around 10%. Tajiks get low AASI.
Son Goku,
All the samples.
Assuming that AASI is something real (which I no longer think is true), then 15-25% are northwestern South Asian biraderi numbers.
The Haryana Jats and Rors are approximately 15% (a little less, actually), Sikh Jatts and Khatri are approximately 20% (a little less, actually), and Pakistani Punjabis are usually approximately 25%, barring Christians (35%, in their case).
5% AASI for the western and central Pashtun, and 7-8% AASI for the eastern Pashtuns, is typical for what one sees across various methods. Far eastern Iranian Persians are also 5%, while in the far western end of the Iranian plateau you see 1-2% AASI.
^ But again, all of this will eventually become obsolete, in a very big way.
I’ll post a dotfile later tonight, to show you what I mean.
What is break down for tam Brahms and iyers in the model. I cluster with them. Is it like Harrapa?
thewarlock,
So this is the dotfile:
digraph G {
size = “7.5,10”;
Rrl -> Rrlb [ label = “3” ];
Rrl -> Rrly [ label = “6” ];
Rrlb -> Russia_Sunghir3SG [ label = “125” ];
Rrlb -> Russia_Kostenki14SG [ label = “124” ];
Rrly -> admixm [ style=dotted, label = “55%” ];
Rrly -> Italy_South_HG_Ostuni1 [ label = “108” ];
admixm -> Italy_MesolithicSG [ label = “130” ];
root -> Rrl_i [ label = “47” ];
root -> rootk [ label = “63” ];
Rrl_i -> Rrrlrlrv [ label = “23” ];
Rrl_i -> South_Africa_2200BPSG [ label = “124” ];
Rrrlrlrd -> admixy [ style=dotted, label = “6%” ];
Rrrlrlrd -> Vindija_NeanderthalDG [ label = “16” ];
admixh -> Rrrlrc [ label = “4” ];
Rrrlrlrv -> Rrl_ia [ label = “17” ];
Rrrlrlrv -> Rrl_j [ label = “11” ];
admixy -> Romania_Oase [ label = “127” ];
Rrl_ia -> admixc [ style=dotted, label = “64%” ];
Rrl_ia -> admixv [ label = “14” ];
Rrl_j -> admixx [ style=dotted, label = “10%” ];
Rrl_j -> Ethiopia_4500BP_publishedSG [ label = “122” ];
admixc -> Morocco_Iberomaurusian [ label = “144” ];
admixv -> admixvv [ label = “2” ];
admixv -> admixmy [ style=dotted, label = “55%” ];
admixx -> Israel_PPNB_ti [ label = “3” ];
admixvv -> admixh [ style=dotted, label = “97%” ];
admixvv -> admixq [ style=dotted, label = “30%” ];
admixq -> Indian_GreatAndaman_100BPSG [ label = “131” ];
admixmy -> Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2_d [ label = “0” ];
Rrrlrc -> Rrrrrr [ label = “0” ];
Rrrlrc -> Russia_Ust_Ishim_HG_publishedDG [ label = “134” ];
rootw -> root [ label = “48” ];
rootw -> ChimpREF [ label = “48” ];
Italy_South_HG_Ostuni1_e -> Mongolia_East_N [ label = “122” ];
Italy_South_HG_Ostuni1_e -> Taiwan_Hanben_IA [ label = “124” ];
Rrrrrr -> Rrlbq [ label = “2” ];
Rrrrrr -> Rrrlh [ label = “7” ];
Rrlbq -> admixy [ style=dotted, label = “94%” ];
Rrlbq -> admix [ style=dotted, label = “85%” ];
Rrrlh -> Rrrll [ label = “4” ];
Rrrlh -> Rrrrrrf [ label = “1” ];
Israel_PPNB_ti -> Israel_PPNB_tim [ label = “2” ];
Israel_PPNB_ti -> Israel_PPNB_t [ label = “2” ];
admix -> admixvt [ style=dotted, label = “87%” ];
Rrrll -> admixaz [ style=dotted, label = “82%” ];
Rrrll -> admixyr [ style=dotted, label = “78%” ];
Rrrrrrf -> Rrrrrrfr [ label = “0” ];
Rrrrrrf -> Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all [ label = “128” ];
admixaz -> admixazh [ label = “17” ];
admixyr -> Russia_Yana_UPSG [ label = “130” ];
Rrlbqd -> Rrlbqdel [ label = “2” ];
Rrlbqd -> Rrlbqdelk [ label = “11” ];
Rrlbqdel -> admixq [ style=dotted, label = “70%” ];
Rrlbqdel -> admixs [ style=dotted, label = “96%” ];
Rrlbqdelk -> admixyr [ style=dotted, label = “22%” ];
Rrlbqdelk -> China_Tianyuan [ label = “113” ];
admixs -> Italy_South_HG_Ostuni1_e [ label = “7” ];
Israel_PPNB_tim -> Turkey_Epipaleolithic [ label = “123” ];
Israel_PPNB_tim -> Israel_PPNB_tin [ label = “24” ];
Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2_d -> Rrrlrrllrs [ label = “3” ];
Rrrlrrll -> admixa [ label = “19” ];
Rrrlrrll -> Rrrlrrllr [ label = “1” ];
Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2_ds -> admixs [ style=dotted, label = “4%” ];
Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2_ds -> Tajikistan_C_Sarazm [ label = “99” ];
admixj -> Rrrlrrl [ style=dotted, label = “73%” ];
admixj -> admixsr [ style=dotted, label = “83%” ];
Rrrlrrl -> Georgia_KotiasSG [ label = “131” ];
admixa -> Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2 [ label = “109” ];
admixa -> admixak [ label = “61” ];
admixak -> admix [ style=dotted, label = “15%” ];
admixak -> admixaz [ style=dotted, label = “18%” ];
Israel_PPNB_t -> admixm [ style=dotted, label = “45%” ];
Israel_PPNB_t -> admixmy [ style=dotted, label = “45%” ];
admixazh -> Russia_MA1_HGSG [ label = “112” ];
admixazh -> admixsr [ style=dotted, label = “17%” ];
Rrrrrrfr -> Rrl [ label = “2” ];
Rrrrrrfr -> Rrrrrrfw [ label = “12” ];
Rrrrrrfw -> admixx [ style=dotted, label = “90%” ];
Rrrrrrfw -> Rrrlrrl [ style=dotted, label = “27%” ];
Israel_PPNB_tin -> admixc [ style=dotted, label = “36%” ];
Israel_PPNB_tin -> admixg [ style=dotted, label = “51%” ];
admixsr -> Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2_ds [ label = “31” ];
rootk -> Rrrlrlrd [ label = “9” ];
rootk -> admixh [ style=dotted, label = “3%” ];
Rrrlrrllr -> admixj [ label = “2” ];
Rrrlrrllr -> Iran_Wezmeh_NSG [ label = “130” ];
admixg -> Israel_PPNB [ label = “126” ];
Rrrlrrllrs -> Rrrlrrll [ label = “6” ];
admixvt -> Rrlbqd [ label = “8” ];
Rrrlrrllrs -> admixg [ style=dotted, label = “49%” ];
Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2_d -> admixvt [ style=dotted, label = “13%” ];
}
If you post it here, you’ll see the topology visualized:
http://viz-js.com/
thewarlock,
If you’d rather read a summary of the topology, here’s an explanation which I posted at a genetics forum:
“By now, I’ve had the pleasure of creating hundreds of topologies with automated qpGraph; it’s fun, if one has some leisure for it (as many have realized, it’s a time-intensive process. Your first graphs will always be nonsense).
And upon examining that body of work, I’m struck by the stability of automated qpGraph; there are only so many “solutions” to the problems posed by the fitting of ancient populations onto a representational structure that revolves around drift/fission, but with allowance for a varying number of “admixture events” (I find the phrase completely inadequate. In my head, the phrase “admixture events” brings to mind images of sudden/abrupt melding between highly divergent lineages. And frankly, I just don’t find this to be an accurate picture of things. In my own view, the “Truth” of what happened probably involved continuous low-level fusion across spatio-temporal clines, with only incomplete differentiation pivoting around geographical fringes and refugia. And I say “incomplete” because the differentiation in question never reached subspecific levels. Like no divergence of the magnitude seen between Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis).
^ I mean, you can play around with the populations; you can tweak the maxmiss parameter; you can try the same graph with afprod = TRUE, or afprod = FALSE; even more.
^^ But no matter what, if you let it run for a few days, and if you make sure to optimize till it just won’t improve (that is, optimize till the point where the only way, and I mean literally the only way, to improve the score would be by allowing for more admixture events)… then, if that’s what you’re doing, you’ll always see the same types of patterns in the topologies.
Two weeks ago I finally completed the “big one”; sent it over to Dr. Maier (a great guy, excellent scientist; always a tremendous help, and always willing to discuss).
But below, you’ll find a dotfile for another smaller topology that I completed way back, which basically shows the same broad patterns as the big one (not exactly identical, but similar). For those who don’t feel any interest in an examination of said graph, I’ll summarize below. (afprod was set to true)
Familiar patterns/constructs/admixture events expected from the literature:
1. 3% Neanderthal-related admixture in Eurasians.
2. Additional 6% Neanderthal-related admixture in Romania_Oase. (admixture is more similar to Neanderthal_Vindjia than whatever Neanderthal-related admixture is baked into Eurasians, which is a beautiful result).
3. Oase and East Eurasians have a thing/are a thing (Oase was not ancestral to West Eurasians, despite living in West Eurasia).
4. CHG is strongly related to ancient Iranian plateau/southern Central Asian/northern South Asian populations, but yet also has a very unambiguous affinity to something European-yet-also-Anatolian/Levantine, which shows up as 27% admixture on a base that’s related to Iran_N (Dzudzuana would play a starring role here, if it was included in the graph).
5. Israel_PPNB is a fusion between the Anatolian/Levantine and Iranian/Central Asian/South Asian group.
6. Yana has ENA admixture.
7. Yana and MA1 have a thing/are a thing.
8. People like the Onge and East Asians have a thing/are a thing.
9. Tajikistan_Sarazm has an additional affinity towards MA1, besides whatever is going on between all of the ancient West Asians/Central Asians/South Asians and MA1. (shows up as 17% ANE admixture, on a base related to Iran_N, and quite related to the primary base for CHG).
Somewhat unfamiliar patterns/constructs/admixture events:
1. The Onge are partially “Basal Eurasian”.
2. This “Basal Eurasian” ancestry is a very important stream in the ancestry of ancient Iranian plateau/Central Asian/South Asian populations (and thus also for CHG). (Explains the affinity between the Onge and all of the West Eurasian pops from Iran to northern India)
3. This “Basal Eurasian” ancestry is probably better described as “North African”. In fact, the Iberomarusians are mostly this. (explains the odd signals in d-stats between the contemporary Onge or contemporary South Indians and contemporary North Africans. Also might explain y-dna haplogroup D in the Onge)
Very unfamiliar patterns/constructs/admixture events:
1. ENA populations are partially West Eurasian, and the West Eurasian stream of ancestry is clearly tied to the Iranian/Central Asian/South Asian group of ancient populations. Something related to Indus_periphery admixed with IUP-type populations to create the older stream of ENA-related pops, and then something akin to Tajikistan_Sarazm admixes into East Asians proper. (Kale recently posted some stats that should assuage any concerns about this being nonsensical; the stats constitute interesting evidence for exactly what this topology is showing: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread….329#post779329)
2. MA1/ANE is partially ancient Iranian/Central Asian/South Asian, on a base that’s closely related to Yana (Yana is not partially ancient Iranian/Central Asian/South Asian; Yana is partially ENA). The primary ancestry for MA1 is from a very diverged branch in the West Eurasian part of the tree (“barely” West Eurasian).
3. Unambiguously-African admixture in the Anatolian/Levantine group. Again, the Iranian/Central Asian/South Asian stream of populations have an affinity that is more ambiguous: some may prefer to call it “African” (myself included), some may prefer to hold on tight to the phrase “Basal Eurasian”. Others might like “Ancestral North African”. But in the case of the Anatolian/Levantine group, it’s undoubtedly an African affinity (East African. Could explain y-DNA haplogroup E in the Levant, and constitutes food for thought with respect to haplogroup D in the Onge, who as a reminder are construed as 30% “Ancestral North African/Basal Eurasian”). But the overwhelming majority of their ancestry is something related to the Paleolithic European “West Eurasians”, and tied to that extra affinity that distinguishes CHG from ancient Iranians/South Asians (again, Dzudzuana would clarify things).
4. WHG is a mix between Anatolian and Ostuni1. A beautiful result, since Italy_Mesolithic is the most “WHG” of all the WHG, and Ostuni1 is a Paleolithic Italian.
5. No AASI (no unique type of ENA for South Asia and Iran_N). West Eurasian ancestry in all ENA, and the “African/Basal Eurasian” ancestry in Andaman that is shared with ancient Iranian/Central Asian/South Asian populations… that’s all that is needed.
And that’s about the size of it.
Now, am I saying that all of the above is the “Truth” of what really happened?
^ No, because I don’t think a tree of human populations is the right way to describe how humans are related to each other. The only “Truth” in this field is that we are all mixtures, and that to a great extent we are mixtures between each other. Everything else is not a matter of being right… it’s a matter of being “less wrong”. 15 “admixture edges” isn’t even close to reality.
^^ But! What I will say with confidence is that this is one of the most “less wrong” topologies you’ll ever see with all of these populations/with only 15 admixture events. And I say that with confidence because I’ve tried hundreds of these, and they all end up showing broadly similar patterns. Furthermore, the tree makes spatio-temporal sense, and can explain many patterns that we’ve seen for years both outside and inside the context of Admixtools.”
All of the above is a description of the topology which I’ve posted.
Sein,
That is a lot of info to process. But very captivating stuff.
I would just add here that the Basal Eurasian in Onge you talk about may not necessarily be North African.
There is a strong argument that can be made for a back migration from SE Asia that apparently populated the whole of Eurasia. Here is a recent paper advocating it.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-020-02204-9
We also know that the Onge cline in South Asia goes from South to North, further supporting the theory for the eastern origins of this basal ancestry.
Factoring in such a ‘very real’ possibility how would you re-evaluate the data ? Quite frankly, there is a lot to process here, and I am not even sure if I have a legit argument.
Jaydeepsinh Rathod,
That is a very fascinating possibility.
When it comes to scenarios like these, one really is confronted by the fact of our lack of aDNA from South Asia proper.
^ Generally speaking, I think Mesolithic and Paleolithic data from southern regions would add much needed clarity, and allow us to decide between the various possible conceptualizations.
^^ But I do think that what you’ve described is a serious/substantive possibility.
And one thing is for sure: the current picture we have in the aDNA literature is merely a product of narrow focus.
If you examine any qpgraph with aDNA (in the current literature), there’s never an attempt at “going big”.
^^^ If such attempts at “going big” were made, they would always end up with comprehensive topologies broadly similar to the one which I’ve posted. The patterns are fairly consistent.
@Razib or anyone who knows
Which one is the best proxy for Iran_neolithic?
And which one is the best(simulated or not) source for AASI? “S AASI Sim” or “Simulated AASI by DMXX” or others?
And why does “Onge” appear to be the largest South Asian component every time though Onge is not a good proxy for AASI or any other South Asian component?
And for Eastern Asian components, should only “Dai(China) average” be used or should “Xiongnu East Asian average” also be used along with “Dai”?
And for Eastern Asian admixture in South Asia…*
“Which one is the best proxy for Iran_neolithic?”
Shahr_I_Sokhta BA1 for most South Asians, I believe? However, it is about 7% AASI.
“And why does “Onge” appear to be the largest South Asian component every time though Onge is not a good proxy for AASI or any other South Asian component?”
Onge has East Asian affinity thus for groups like Bengalis, for example, it comes as a large integrant if used as a proxy for AASI.
“Shahr_I_Sokhta BA1 for most South Asians, I believe?”
No. Simulated AASI becomes the largest component if Shahr_I_Sokhta BA1 is used as the only proxy for Iran_neolitihic. Even using “Iran Late Neolithic(5748 BCE Iran)” as the only proxy gives more than 50% AASI.
Also using Dai(China) gives at most only 10% Eastern Asian admixture in Bangladeshis and in most cases even much less: 5-7%.
You previously said that Bangladeshis have only 30% AASI. But it appears to be around 37-40% usually.
“No. Simulated AASI becomes the largest component if Shahr_I_Sokhta BA1 is used as the only proxy for Iran_neolitihic. Even using “Iran Late Neolithic(5748 BCE Iran)” as the only proxy gives more than 50% AASI.”
That depends on which simulated AASI you take into account. Since they are ghost populations, one should take the scores with a grain of salt.
For example, using AASI_Sim (NW) I got this:
Bengali_Bangladesh
Distance: 0.02192797
42.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1
35.8 AASI
11.8 Dai
10.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
Eastern_Bangladesh
Distance: 0.02834319
41.1 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1
31.2 AASI
14.5 Dai
13.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
Simulated AASI NW is from SiS BA2 and 3. They are the farthest AASI from the Indian cline.
“You previously said that Bangladeshis have only 30% AASI. But it appears to be around 37-40% usually.”
As you can see, Eastern Bangladeshis (Individuals from Chittagong, Comilla, and Sylhet) are slightly less AASI and slightly more East Asian and Steppe.
However, the meaning of AASI itself remains a question mark. ATM we can assume Bengalis are within 30-36%. And the AASI was most likely not a single population.
However, i am calculating AASI assuming that Shahr-i-shokhta ba2 is 30% AASI
https://theprint.in/national-interest/why-india-should-forget-afghanistan-pakistan-terroristan-shift-strategic-gaze-to-the-seas/719567/
Why India should forget Afghanistan, Pakistan, ‘Terroristan’ & shift strategic gaze to the seas
Bhai such articles are like the meaningless ones in the Foreign Policy(FP) magazine. Our navy is too small and the gap with China is widening.
Here are simple facts:
1) India has two half decent shipyards. Mazagaon and GRSE. Both are public enterprises and their order books full till the end of times. Neither are very cost or time efficient.
2) Tier two we have Goa, Cochin, and Hindustan. Hindustan is a burden on our country, Cochin takes forever and has egregious cost over-runs beating and Goa so far has been too small. All three are treated like heir’s to India’s treasury.
3) Then come Anil’s Pipavav and L&T’s Kattupalli. GoI has already destroyed Pipavav and is actively trying to bankrupt L&T.
Everyone except L&T is always busy as they are behind schedule. We take so long to build ships there are no physical docks to build ships! There are hardly any engineers or yards that lie vacant!
Answer is private shipbuilding. Infront of my eyes I saw Western India, Bharati, ABG and Alcock Ashdown destroyed in the last decade. Indian shipbuilding has been through a bloodbath, no one will invest a penny here. In a country like India trading (bania) beats manufacturing (lohar) every single time.
https://theprint.in/opinion/shipbuilding-is-our-maritime-sectors-missed-opportunity-it-needs-its-own-ministry/701101/
I think the first half of the article is on point. We are getting overtly obsessed over events in Afghanistan. Whether better or for worse india has to live with a military and terrorist threat from the west. No point trying to “balance” it.
Also I am not as pessimistic on India’s sea power. For whatever it’s worth india does have enough capability to stand its own in the neighborhood seas. Yes, it’s has no power to project influence in south east Asia and all. But if India’s can match China in Indian Ocean than its task for QUAD is done. For all China”s marine might it cannot fight in multiple threatres.
In pitched naval battles even huge capital ships get knocked out left-and-right, entire fleets get destroyed in a couple of days. We need surprise weapons, we need numbers, strength to lose 10,000 sailors, 10 capital ships/subs in 2 days and still fight to win. In near future we will be outnumbered 10:1 in submarines, similar numbers for frigates and destroyers. We must build faster and cheaper. Japanese build aircraft carriers for a billion USD in three years, we build frigates that weigh a third and take nine years to build for a billion USD each!
Ditto for Air Force, we just don’t have the numbers. This is very dangerous and has real world consequences. It costs 100 crore more(~450 crore) to assemble a Su 30 in HAL Nagpur than it would cost to buy it fully built from Russia (~350 crore).
Also browbeating Sri Lanka into submission on restricting naval access is a must. Otherwise these genius people will one day let Chinese carriers and nuclear subs dock at their ports and help in getting us all colonized again.
@ Bhimrao
I have heard the argument that conventional navies are just white elephants and don’t make much sense during a war when we have missiles that can sink them for a lot cheaper than it takes to build the ships.
https://youtu.be/z1ln9_7eemU
This is one place I have heard that argument ( he starts talking about this after 2:20)
Na bhai, yeh sab bakchodi hai. A big navy is essential if we want to remain sovereign. Sea is vast, there are counters to every type of anti-ship weapons. If you don’t like ships get submarines, but sea is the biggest battlefield of all.
A IAF C-17 can carry ~7.5 tons in one go, INS Tabar can carry 400 tons and while doing so can take on Pakistani navy and air force all by itself. Both cost about the same. INS Tabar will serve for 40 years and costs almost nothing to maintain.
Navies have scale, Air Forces have pomp. Air forces are tactical pinpricks, Navies are strategic hammers.
Akhilesh Yadav, OBC Leader, ex-CM of Uttar Pradesh and Leader of Samajwadi Party joins the “Gangetic Hindu Comedy Club”, where Saurav is Chairman.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-i-am-a-better-hindu-than-bjp-netas-says-sp-chief-akhilesh-yadav/articleshow/85121245.cms
Yes – you heard it right!! Akhilesh Yadav claims to be more/better hindu than Modi/Shah. Jokes apart, Akhilesh Yadav is a very hard-nosed and canny politician. He knows what he is doing. The actual joke is that many UP-ites would accept his statement. Because they no longer know what it is to be a real Hindu. Uttar Pradesh is India’s most Arabized state – where Hindus have stopped asserting their cultural dominance and have for more than 500 years played a passive submissive role to other forces in society (Deobandi, Casteist etc).
This again is a perfect microcosm of the summation of modern India’s politics – Gangetic Hindu philosophy (Secularism/Dhimmi-tude) vs Western Hindu philosophy (Hindutva)
Nehru, the most famous Gangetic Hindu politician in the last 100 years – was the most skilled exponent of the UP style of dhimmi Hinduism. Right off the bat after 1947, when Sardar Patel (Western Hindu Congressman) wanted state patronage for rebuilding Somnath – Nehru the dhimmi UPwallah – opposed it. Even AB Vajpayee – who hailed from UP – and belonged to the BJP, was considered a moderate face. Vajpayee once considered removing Modi from power after Godhra. LK Advani stopped it. Indian history would have been different today if that UP-wallah had had his way. You will find this divide cutting across political parties and the spectrum.
We are going to see a repeat of Biden-Afghanistan dynamics in next year’s Uttar Pradesh Assembly Election elections. It is similar, in more ways than one.
– Yogi Adityanath is an installed Chief Minister by the Western Hindus (Hindutva). He was a Lok Sabha MP who never fought the Legislative Assembly elections. He owes his position totally to Modi-Shah. The equivalent of Ashraf Ghani!
– Akhilesh Yadav is the son of Mulayam Yadav, the man who famously had Kar Sevaks shot when they were on their way to Ayodhya. They have perfected a Muslim-Yadav combination in a legitimate act of coalition building. They are the sons-of-the-soil of UP. The equivalent of Taliban.
– By the way, the Taliban derives its ideological components from the Deobandi School, a seminary in Western UP. Quite a lot of its leaders have close linkages with UP theological leaders.
The undercurrents that are now convulsing South Asia are more connected than you think.
“ Because they no longer know what it is to be a real Hindu. “
Bro no amount of hindu rabble rousing can make south and East Indians more-Hindu. Now it’s becoming pathetic.
It’s all in plain sight. I don’t know why u even fight all this.
Save your energy, Saurav! No need to create strawmen. My post was about Western India and Gangetic regions. Its election season in UP and Akhilesh Yadav is going to drop more comedy than you do 🙂
When UP-wallahs need to visit a temple or get a job – they catch a train to South India.
https://twitter.com/TajudenSoroush/status/1429019928267563009?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1429019928267563009%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=
An army who worships together, stays together.
What’s interesting about that Oxford Professor is that she isn’t making a typical “Woke” argument. That would be invoking her skin color as a shield to claim oppression. Her argument, whatever you may think of it, is race-neutral and even gender-neutral. I don’t see how this makes her a coconut as Bhimrao alleges. Perhaps she is just a philosopher interested in worldly affairs?
In general, I find it fascinating how progressive Indians become once they reach Western shores. It leads to a question: are Indians naturally progressive (left to their own devices) or is it a cultural assimilation thing? Einstein used to say that without anti-Semitism, Jews would disappear as a people. I’m beginning to wonder the same thing about Hinduism vis-a-vis Islam. Without being surrounded by very large numbers of moslems, both within the country and surrounding it, is Hinduism strong enough to maintain itself through the generations? Indian diaspora is too recent in the West to make longterm studies (3rd gen+), but early clues from the 2nd gen suggest that it isn’t.
Or perhaps Hinduism is just liberal in of itself, and without a repressive neighbourhood, it merges seamlessly within Western liberalism. Certainly, it seems to me that few groups assimilate as easily as Indians. East Asians would be the other group, but East Asians complain about the “bamboo ceiling”. Razib has shown that Indians get promoted more than whites – even accounting for SES – so it suggest a very high degree of cultural compability.
In other words, perhaps this is less a case of a desperate Indian trying to be accepted than a case of a dyed-in-the-wool liberal in her natural element. Why should we assume that Hinduism is conservative by default? Indians often make the point that bans on homosexuality came with the British.
@principia
…Without being surrounded by very large numbers of moslems, both within the country and surrounding it, is Hinduism strong enough to maintain itself through the generations?….
Before Islam, we had Buddhism. You will get your answer if you read Ambedkar’s treatise, who once remarked the essence of Ancient India is merely the fight between Hinduism and Buddhism.
A lot of features we take for granted in Hinduism’s facade are ornaments taken from the Buddhist superstructure. Ashoka was the first Emperor who completely banned the slaughter and consumption of livestock “beyond reasonable limits”. The last phrase, being subjective, led to the adoption of total vegetarianism as Ancient India’s state policy.
Even today, communists and Dalits face the same quandary that you state. When trying to agitate against beef bans, the Buddhist faction of Dalits withdraw from the battlefield, citing Ashoka’s precedent. Communists have to face the “horrible truth” that many of the supposed elitisms of Brahmins were once the orthodoxy of the Buddhist elites, who are now the inspiration of India’s downtrodden. In this sense, Hinduism is able to co-opt the characteristics of breakaway spiritual factions. So it accomodates rebels.
In general, however, many of Hinduism’s doctrines are based on parsimony. You can agitate all you want against caste, but it is just a formalisation of nature’s inequalities. Societies without caste are now finding out that privilege extends beyond generations and benefits descendants even 400 years down the line. In this sense, Hinduism is conservative.
On woke-leaning:
“For Srinivasan, the notion that people who are fat or transgender or simply don’t fit the white and blond mould are sexually undesirable is a matter for political contestation and moral analysis.”
She might have worded this carefully but don’t you see where she is going?
On coconut:
Coconut != woke, Razib is coconut and proud, and we all know how woke he is. I accuse her of being a coconut for using language/vocabulary that is alien to brown people but music to white-people’s ears to further her career.
My first and second comment were somewhat unrelated.
In the first one I was commenting on how could a professor at Oxford be passing this shit as academic-research (worldly-philosophy?). We spit out better ‘worldly-philosophy’ here and terminology (she was talking about ‘fuckability’, ‘hot blond slut’) on BP multiple times each week. This is not rigorous, meaningful academic research, this is a tier below bro-talk at the water-cooler, this is the shit men discuss when standing in side-by-side urinals. And I was implying that as more and more humanities professors invoke the artist’s classic trope of ‘who defines what is art?’ and use some shitty but outrageous (due to being inappropriate) work to get publicity and differentiation, ‘normal’, ‘sane’ people who work as plumbers and drivers and mechanics and bankers will stop looking up to academia as some intelligent-worthy pursuit.
“Or perhaps Hinduism is just liberal in of itself, and without a repressive neighbourhood, it merges seamlessly within Western liberalism”.
@Principia, you said it! That is exactly I have thought about it. It is the humanism shining through. West also enables the philosophical discussions that would be stifled in the current Indian cultural milieu. Kamasutra would not have been possible in today’s India.
https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/why-defence-aircraft-manufacturer-hal-is-building-a-civilian-aircraft-for-use-in-india-7463170/lite/
Explained: Why defence aircraft manufacturer HAL is building a civilian aircraft for use in India
The 19-seater Hindustan-228 or the Do-228 is the first major attempt in India to develop a small civil transport aircraft after the 14-seater Saras aircraft development program was shelved in 2009.
Bhai this is bullshit. Do 228 is a shit airplane in civilian market, almost NO ONE buys it, I am guessing a market of at-most 2-5 per year at best. It is ancient and it costs too much ~$8.7 million in 2011, must be more now. Compare this to the exactly same 19pax newly developed Cessna 408 ~$5.5 million in 2020.
Even in the past everyone bought DHC Twin otter ~$5.6 million USD(2010) or the Chinese Y-12.
(Almost) No one is going to buy it. It is a shit, overpriced plane.
@Bhimrao
More than 150 Dornier 228 are still in service today. India is the sole base for spare parts and MRO. Its a very profitable business for HAL. Germany shut down the production line – so HAL remains the sole production line in the world. Which makes it very competitive in the aviation market.
Cessna 408 is not type certified in Europe itself, forget Asia or India. It is a brochure plane. And there are definitely no plans to type certify it for commercial aviation. Do 228 is mil certified, pasenger aviation certified and cargo certified.
For Cessna 408 to reach the status of Do 228, it has to move mountains. Your quoted prices are useless – no-one will buy it if it is not type certified. Even insurance will not touch it.
Even in the best of days unpressurized twin-turbo was a slim cut-throat market.
“Which makes it very competitive in the aviation market.”
“Your quoted prices are useless – no-one will buy it if it is not type certified. Even insurance will not touch it.”
Do 228 has been available to civilians for decades. Hardly anyone ever buys it. While right next to us in Nepal and Maldives and Africa everyone loves their DHC twin Otters. Indian defense forces bought almost all the airplanes that HAL ever made. Viking sold 150+ in last 14 years, how many has HAL sold to non Indian government entities?
Cessna 408 has Textron behind it. They will see this program through and in our lifetimes you will see 408 own this segment, poach from others and maybe even a thousand+ being produced.
https://aviationdoctor.wordpress.com/2017/03/09/summary-the-2016-general-aviation-turboprop-deliveries-and-sales-numbers-are-out-from-gama-and-the-turboprops-were-the-only-segment-to-record-an-increase-in-deliveries-3-4-as-piston-4-9-and-e/
Check the sales numbers. You would like the rest of this blog too.
Also, technically Do 228 NG program is owned by General Atomics not HAL.
Selling a plane to a mil-aviation user is a higher sales achievement than selling it to a civilian. Somehow it beats me as to how people think civilians have higher standards than mil-forces!!
Mission UDAN is getting at least 40 Do-228s for Tier 2 routes. Its a big thing. Unpressurised turboprops are perfect as a cost subsititute for rail journeys between cities 500-800 kms apart. The Do-228 is also a STOL aircraft – it unlocks almost 100 towns that have semi-prepared runways.
Again all these Cessna sales guys claim xyz cost even before their plane has cleared type certification. Super optimistic. Wait till the certifiers say too much vibration or landing shocks. Then they will be forced to add more material/redesign. Do-228 has cleared all this shit a long time ago.
The Do-228 (with glass cockpit) costed 7 mil USD in 2018 (HAL Chairman interview). This is the advantage of having fully depreciated CNCs, autoclaves and milling machines (HAL Kanpur). Cessna 408 is a long way off from cost-competitiveness with a established supply chain and type certified plane like Do-228.
“Selling a plane to a mil-aviation user is a higher sales achievement than selling it to a civilian. ”
True but only if the competition is free and fair. And I do agree with a point you made a few thread ago about every government favoring their own aviation industry. But this favoring of HAL means that military contracts involving HAL are not fair. Therefore it comes down to civilian markets to give us some picture about the reality, it is a fact that Cessna 208 outsells and makes more profit than Mahindra’s GA8. Similarly it is a fact that DHC kicks Do228 out of the park in this segment. Sales don’t lie.
Pulling the following straight out of thin air, correct me if I am wrong:
Do 228 in Udan: I do not understand how will it ever make sense. The plane itself costs seven million USD. Say someone expects the plane to be paid off in 10 years, ~ $800,000 in yearly in loan repayment. Means that plane has to make ~2K per day on top of operational costs, now let us say the plane makes six 2 hour flights daily with 90 percent passenger load factor (keep in mind I am being more generous to Do 228 operator than Lord Kuber himself). So every day we sell 17*6 = 102 flight tickets. Assuming HAL’s magic number of 85K per hour to be true
https://www.businesstoday.in/industry/aviation/story/hal-pitching-country-first-civilian-aircraft-to-prospective-buyers-90544-2017-11-03
and flying 12 hours daily we get 12 * Rs 85,000 + 2 * $2,000 = Rs 11,70,000 in expenses and repayments everyday. Comes out about Rs 11K per passenger for a 2 hour one way ~500 km (this is a slow and noisy plane) long flight. How many UDAN sectors can sustain this? Let us assume I am a complete duffer and got it wrong by 50% even then no one in small-town India will pay 6K for a one way 500 km noisy and slow flight.
Small planes work in Hawaii and Maldives because of rich people, they work in Nepal or Africa because of lack of options. I don’t think it can be made to work in India unless we want Air India to throw more tax-money down the drain.
@Bhimrao
The plane’s life is 25 years. 85K operating cost is at standard cruise speeds (300 kmph TAS) and follows a curve. Commercial planes stay in the air for 18 hrs a day (Roster – 5AM to 11PM). Works out to 3000 rupees for a 600 km journey.
These towns are in the middle of nowhere and takes up to 10 hours by road for the same journey. A Volvo operator charges 1000 rupees. The question to businessmen is whether their time is worth 400 rupees per hour.
360 days/year * 25 year = 9000 days
If the plane flies 15 hours b/w 5AM-11PM then 9000*15 = 135,000 flying hours!!! That would be one hell of a plane, can be done, but very very unlikely.
Let us be generous and say per flight hour costs INR 50,000 instead of the already made up INR 85,000. And the plane stays in the air 16 hours a day.
Even if we assume someone will loan me the money for 25 years and very generously allow only $800 per day (instead of 2K daily for 10 years) to be paid towards the initial loan. Then too the cost comes out 16 * 50,000 Rs + 800 $*75 Rs/$ = 800,000+ 60,000 = 860,000
8 flights each 2 hour, flight 90% occupancy = 8*17 = 136 tickets sold.
860,000/136 = Rs 6,300 for a one way 2 hour noisy slow flight.
Let me be even more generous, say the plane makes 9, 2-hour trips every day.
Then we get (18*50,000 + 800*75)/(9*17) = 960,000/153 = Rs 6,275 for a one way 2 hour noisy slow flight.
In the best of conditions, when bank is giving you money like Bank of Japan, your crew never screws up, there is no pandemic, no down-turn, rivers of milk and . We don’t see these planes because they are not feasible.
@Bhimrao
Man!!! Seriously?? You are a finance neophyte. DCF apply karo….I wasted 30 minutes trying to figure out how in the fuck are you coming up with these inflated numbers.
Forget planes for a minute, ok. This is an asset that is worth 50 crores today. It’s life is 25 years. Linear depreciation (tax write-off) will ensure that some where around the 12th year, it’s paper value will cease to exist for the holding company. But it’s technical life continues to be. In the first year, it’s real income only needs to be 56k rupees per day (36 tickets or 2 flights only to cover capital costs). The rest of the flights/tickets is a race against opex. Essentially 12 years of costs write down and then a cash cow for the rest of it’s life.
Lohar banna aasan hai. Isliye Baniya baap HOTA hai!! Ambani was not a chemical engineer! Which is why he built the world’s largest refinery and made it profitable.
Bhai I am a professional lohar, not a professional bania. Maybe I really don’t understand this well. India and HAL are going nowhere, let us wait and see it anyone can pull off a 19 seater airline in India and if they do learn from them.
Hub in Lucknow/Kanpur then worthwhile destinations (~350 km away) I can think off would be Jhansi, Moradabad/Bareilly, Gwalior, Agra, Varanasi, Gorakhpur. Any longer and A320s or atr show up. I am sure 10s of places would appreciate direct flight to Delhi, places like Faizabad, Sultanpur, Jabalpur, Kota…Demand is definitely not a problem. There is scale and transportation scarcity in the north that just can’t be ignored.
Very interesting thread on AltNews:
https://twitter.com/vijaygajera/status/1428680415099834372
Basically, AltNews is scamming their audience by claiming to need donations when they are loaded with cash. What is even more important, is that most of their funding comes from major corporations like Infosys and Wipro (via organs like IPSMF).
I see a lot of right-wingers in India ranting about ‘marxists’, but that is an old foe. Marxists haven’t had real power in Indian institutions for many years now. It turns out the same people pushing woke ideology and woke media in India are the same as they are in the west: corporations.
Wokism, therefore, is a neoliberal (and not marxist) ideology. It serves capital.
Wokeism does serve corporatist interests at times. But at this time is allied with radical islamist elements and indirectly the powerful CCP who uses debt trap diplomacy and heavy state sponsored corporatism for its economic neo colonial endeavors.
The real opposition is to radical islamic terrorism and PRC’s growing choke hold on the world. The US is no where near benevolent. But the CCP is just straight up scary in what it can do. America is at least diverse and divided by faction, so interest groups duke it out and will call out atrocity. The PRC is a one party authoritarian basically single ethnic state with exponentially growing power. It is scary if it becomes the main global hegemond.
https://www.economist.com/asia/2021/08/21/what-the-taliban-takeover-of-afghanistan-means-for-india-and-pakistan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zafzo8IgjE
good review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp7K_h2Hbc8
@thewarlock
these jatland.com guys view themselves as god amongst men, sakas among dravidas.
Tbh jats do have a distinct, coarse appearance but they fall well within the typical north indian range.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news18.com/amp/news/buzz/this-coder-is-re-imagining-the-composition-of-india-with-maps-of-visual-data-4081247.html
Good to see India in pixels getting some recognition
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2021/8/22/is-the-talibans-treatment-of-women-really-inspired-by-sharia
Lmfao
https://www.jns.org/opinion/as-taliban-conquer-afghanistan-time-to-sanction-pakistan/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY-gcBdax-8&t=40s
LMFAO. Comments are amazing. His denial of the Gujarati component that comes up in some tests is also pretty funny. There is is deep visceral hatred that Pakistanis have for Gujaratis lol.
The near enemy of AASI % that is Gujarat and UP.
As a Hindu I actually prefer Islamist Punjabi Pakistan’s to the racist Punjabi Pakistanis. Atleast Islam has respectable core values of egalitarianism, charity, universalism etc.
Racist Punjabi Pakistan dal khor are truely sad bunch. Brown but lighter than thou most of the time. Lolz. Truely Pathetic.
Beautiful walk to a temple inside a forest, near Kochi, Kerala.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JL3dmTiU7U
Hope India preserves natural beauty like this.
https://www.opindia.com/2021/08/gender-activist-group-makes-minor-boy-wear-mangalsutra-bindi-to-smash-the-patriarchy-equal-community-foundation/
Western wokedom is coming in strong
https://theprint.in/opinion/a-us-not-tied-in-afghanistan-only-helps-india-deal-with-pakistan-problem-better/720247/?__twitter_impression=true&
A US not tied in Afghanistan only helps India deal with Pakistan problem better
https://www.opindia.com/2021/08/governments-know-india-website-hails-mughal-rule-as-greatest-ever-praises-mughals-for-being-tolerant-peaceful/amp/
Govt of India’s Know India website hails Mughal rule as ‘greatest ever’, Ministry issues clarification
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thenationalnews.com/business/2021/08/22/is-green-hydrogen-the-energy-of-the-future-for-india/%3FoutputType%3Damp
Is green hydrogen the ‘energy of the future’ for India?
https://twitter.com/suchitrav/status/1429847208506138630
“White people are exhausting—they also beat the spirit out of all of us. Teaching us once again that whiteness is super power. You can get column space for an inane rant on foods they dislike (who the f cares), but many of us have to wage a war to get books about out WOT reviewed.”
S-Indian wokes getting frustated by white wokes. They haven’t met their achilles heels yet though, N-Indian wokes. Once N-Indians enter woke-sphere in large numbers white wokes will repent what they have sowed…
Hehe Enjoying Major General Bakshi’s tirade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lgx5xYnt0Q
A friend of mine from Jammu (where Bakshi lives) recounts meeting him in person in his early 20s, ‘He very loudly talked and talked… talked over others, interrupted, had no patience to listen to anyone other than himself, used language unfitting for a retired Indian Army general in public, relied on Indian-uncle-ji tropes and came of as a rude, overbearing, disrespectful, really dumb person’
My friend is physically very fit and from a very famous soldier, Lt. Triveni Singh’s (who was posthumously decorated with Ashok Chakra) extended family, maybe he didn’t sign up for the NDA fearing he might have to work with the likes of Gen. Bakshi. The current CDS is a retard too.
I have a different story, one of batchmates who joined NDA said he met him rather frequently, and asked him about his ‘public persona’. Dont know how much truth there is , but he replied he has cultivated it for TV and in real life he is opposite of that. Meaning he can have a rational discussion without shouting and stuff…
I think Pakistan is going to dominate India for the next 15 years, much like it did till the 90s.
With Afghanistan in the bag and Chinese tailwinds behind them, it can dial down the resource sinkage on India. Idiots like Modi will war monger but Imran Khan can use woke talking points to win sympathy even in the west. All bomb blasts that will happen will be justified as a natural consequence of Hindutva majoritarianism. No need for defence expenditure any more.
Immy bhai is also focusing on the economy now. Airlift, a Lahore based logistics startup just raised $85 million to expand into Asia and Africa.
As tech gets democratised, Indian entrepreneurs will realise that the only reason they had been raising so much money was because they were rent seeking on access to a large market. But having shown no gumption to expand beyond it, they will soon be overtaken by more hungry players from Pakistan, Bangladesh and elsewhere. These places will also receive Chinese venture capital as it searches for alternatives to India.
Pakistan also has a young population so a ready and willing work force needed for industrialization. Pakistanis by and large also seem to be more hard working people. Plus they have an international network in the Islamic world, which is receiving significant investments of its own. Not to forget the fact that Pak has dual citizenship. So lots of west based Paks will also invest once they start to see potential.
All in all, this is a far contrast from India. Our reality has been shown to the world during covid. The economy has been in the doldrums for years. China is on our throats. We have no foreign policy to speak of. Our human capital is going backwards and set even further back by the pandemic.
Modi has destroyed all reputation that we had built. India and Hinduism are so toxic, no western leader will even touch us with a barge pole.
This is a fit punishment for a society that has its essence rooted in discrimination and untouchability. Pakistan and Bangladesh did the right thing by separating from us. We will now see them reap the rewards of it while we wallow in gutter as we have for 3000 years.
10,000 years man, 10,000 years. Don’t you know our Vedas are 10,000 (or 100,000 my Chaha on whatsapp says) years old manuals on inserting dead horse’s dicks into a queen’s v for victory.
###
Airlift is weird business tbh, they were doing cabs then they started their version of postmates, It will become a unicorn one day as it is andhon mein kaana raja.
“This is a fit punishment for a society that has its essence rooted in discrimination and untouchability.”
Would conversion to Islam, Christianity or post-modern wokeness save us? Or is it the case that having been casteists for 10000 odd years, caste is pretty much ingrained in the Indian DNA and a software change isn’t going to cut it? A ‘Cultural Revolution’ a la China is not going to do it for us.
Perhaps we should unilaterally give away Kashmir to Pakistan and Ladakh, Arunachal Pradesh to China and sit tight, hoping no one will take notice of us as we muddle about in our misery.
Maybe Punjab and Dravida-nadu should also separate from the eternal mess which is North India.
The other way out is for the Bahujans of India to clearly realize the one group whose fault it is that India is so downtrodden – the Brahmins. Do the Brahmins do any real work – No. They only ever take up professions where they have to sit and give their worthless opinions on everything under the Sun. Hasn’t Tamil Nadu which for 70 years has been trying to get rid of Brahmins benefitted hugely by this endeavor? Is is not one of the most industrialized states with high human development indices?
Would caste remain if Brahmins weren’t around? It wouldn’t. Jatt women would happily marry Dalit men when there wouldn’t be anyone to negatively judge their actions from the top of the caste hierarchy downwards.
Hasn’t Tamil Nadu which for 70 years has been trying to get rid of Brahmins benefitted hugely by this endeavor? Is is not one of the most industrialized states with high human development indices?
TVS, Amalgamations group, Zoho, and the list goes on.
Not everything is as straight forward as you think.
@isThisReal, isn’t the founder of Zoho a tambrahm ?
Lol. Imagine typing this shit literally the month after India’s exports hit a record high and the tech world is overflowing with jobs.
The only talking point that I see the left use now is fuel prices.
Haven’t been following BP closely for a while, what great tragedy has befallen Prats?
@ IsThisReal
He had said that he’d been kidding the last time he had written something like this so I assume he’s doing the same thing now. The bullshit level was way higher that time though
@IsThisReal, there are other talking points that the left uses apart from fuel prices and those are privatization or selling off even profitable PSUs. Unemployment or even underemployement is a severe problem in india. The tech world which is ‘overflowing with jobs’ employs a very small fraction of the workforce. If anything, post-covid, things have been hard and there have many layoffs
Indian companies are overflowing with stimulus money right now. Wait till that wave goes away and the economy is found naked.
@ Prats
Could you list out the reasons you are so pessimistic about India. I’m asking because you didn’t seem so a few months ago so want to know what all must have changed in the economy, is it mainly because of the second wave?
lol u folks are getting too pessimistic. The reason india got ahead of Pakistan is not because it had some galaxy brains but because india does dumb things and pakistan does dumber.
And last time pakistan was doing great was in late 80s when 1st Afghan war was drawing to a close…..
I hope all of S Asia becomes rich. I just want radical Islam to not expand and CCP to not colonize. That’s all. If Pakistan is well positioned, that is wonderful. I just hope they don’t use their position for new terror projects. If Taliban governs well and moderately (I doubt it it but let’s see), then fantastic.
All S Asia is poor with young population. Potential for growth is there. So much of it is untapped.
Next time, India and Pak should take gold and silver in Javelin. I want them to do well too. I do feel a sense of pan S Asian brotherhood with Bangla, Pak, Sri Lanka, and Nepal, even if some racialists continue to hate me. That’s on them.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.weeklyblitz.net/oped/canadian-politician-jagmeet-singh-echoes-voice-of-radical-islam/%3famp=1
thewarlock,
“If Taliban governs well and moderately (I doubt it it but let’s see), then fantastic.”
I completely share your hesitation. It’s hard to shake off the memories of late 90’s Taliban control. They were brutal.
At the same time though, I’ve been bingeing a lot of videos on YouTube of Afghan reporters walking around Kabul, and interviewing both Talibs and local Kabulis.
^ And honestly, everything seems rather calm, quiet, and “normal”.
Furthermore, a lot of these reporters are Tajiks with very poor proficiency in Pashto (while all the Talibs are Pashtuns, and the greater majority have very poor proficiency in Farsi/Dari), many of them are clean shaven, and quite a few are walking around in jeans and t-shirts.
^^ Despite the shaven faces, the western clothing, and the broken Pashto, the Talibs are rather friendly and accomadating towards them, and the reporters show not the slightest hint of fear.
(Heck, forget the reporters; in every video, there are random young Kabuli guys walking around clean-shaven and t-shirted, right in front of armed Talibs… and the Talibs don’t seem to care, and the young guys don’t seem even remotely worried)
In fact, some of the discussions between Talibs and reporters are shockingly sincere and open; the reporters do not pull any punches, and the Talibs do not display any impatience with any of the more “hard-hitting” questions.
Furthermore, the fact that the American media continues to focus on the airport shows just how uneventful everything else is in Kabul; it really looks like the Taliban are keeping everything together.
All I can say is that so far, this Taliban is a 100 miles away from its original tenure in the 90’s; and it is thousands upon thousands of miles away from anything like ISIS. (I mean, one of the first things they did was execute the leader of Khurasani ISIS)
Also, I’ve already stated how I think that people here are exaggerating the importance of Pakistan in all of this. My skepticism was originally instinctual.
^ But now, it’s even intellectual (lol).
In one interview between a Talib and a reporter, the reporter inquiries about the Talib’s possible response to people calling them Pakistani lackeys.
^^ The man straight up says that “Punjabis are people without dignity, without decency, and without honor. We would never tolerate them sowing discord upon our soil.”
And he doesn’t look like the type to bullshit. He’s being pretty serious, and pretty sincere.
Of course, he’s just one dude.
But then, there’s another video of another guy interviewing the Taliban; he’s actually Pashtun. He asks a Talib a similar question (basically “Kabulis are worried that you’re all tied to Pakistan, and your governance means Pakistani governance”). This Talib basically says “it would be deeply dishonorable for Punjabis to tell Afghans how to handle our affairs. They can’t even handle their own affairs; look at Kashmir. They already have enough that they should worry about”.
So that’s at least two dudes.
Again, like I said days ago, I think that the Indian concerns about Pakistan in Afghanistan constitute a subset of the broader Indian concern about Pakistan in general. It’s not completely “real”.
^ So again, I will be on record as saying that the Taliban victory in Afghanistan is not neccesarily a victory for Pakistan; nor is the Taliban somehow an extension of Pakistan into Afghanistan. At the end of the day, this is an Afghan movement, with Afghan-specific concerns and interests.
And again, I really hope that they continue to be as moderate and gentle as they are being right now.
It doesn’t matter what lower rank TB members think of Punjabis.. the fact is that their victory is enabled by the same ‘Punjabis’ who provide them with intelligence support and fleeing shelter . These TB comments against Punjabis are pretty mild, people from pretty much every ethnic group in Pakistan that is not Punjabi make derogatory and offensive comments against Punjabis. My own uncle said once that ‘all Punjabis are like snakes and don’t ever make friends with them’. Ironically his wife (my aunt) is Punjabi. You will find similar comments against Punjabis made by Sindhis, Urduspeakers, and Baluch (Pakistani Pasthuns one the other hand relatively speaking are much closer to Punjabis and much less hostile to them when compared to other ethnic groups). At the end of the day, they all either vote for Punjabi parties or parties that seek support from Punjab, or they seek the protection of Pakistani (Punjabi) army, which in recent days have inducted a proportional amount of Pasthuns and Sindhis. So all in all, TB takeover of Afghanistan is just good news for Pakistan as at the very least, they are not that receptive to hosting India.
Right now, TB has bigger concerns because what I am hearing is that a lot of the fighters don’t like this general amnesty for all Afghans that the top leadership has announced.. More radical elements in TB want retribution.. so there is a lot of discontent, that will show up when the victorious euphoria dies down.
I believe we won’t really know how much or if taliban has changed until some months down the road, once all these settle down. There are still western citizens in Kabul, and Afghanistan”s assets are still on freeze. And taliban are still to be recognized. Lot of factors are up in air.
https://twitter.com/moeednj/status/1429877827567034371?s=21
“ Mir Mohammad Ali Khan, a geo-strategic analyst argues that with the US exit from Afghanistan this region is now ready to emerge as a powerful economic block creating new challenges for the US and Indian strategy “
@prats I found ur Pakistani version ??
“A safe passage through Afghanistan for all the countries connecting it to Gwadar and a safe passage through the Central Asia countries and Iran all the way to Turkey, connecting Western Europe to these countries. $92 trillion dollars of the world GDP and 56% of it being locked within these countries and first time in modern history a combined trading block. And none of it could be done without Pakistan and its deepwater port’
?
https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/wont-rest-until-those-behind-my-ordeal-are-punished-severely-else-there-will-be-countless-harish-bangeras-who-pay-a-price-for-just-being-hindu
“Won’t Rest Until Those Behind My Ordeal Are Punished Severely. Else There Will Be Countless Harish Bangeras Who Pay A Price For Just Being Hindu”
What is the possibility of Pak finally getting into the fatf black list, now that it has lost at least some of it’s leverage over US and there is a lot of anger against it due to the Afghanistan debacle
None whatsoever. Infact Pakistan just got a $2.75 billion payout from the IMF today
https://www.aaj.tv/news/30265318/
It comes with a thank you note from IMF Managing Director Kristalina Georgieva, who has sent a note of thanks to Prime Minister Imran Khan, expressing gratitude over the “safe and swift evacuation” of its staff from Afghanistan
” | wish to offer my deep and sincere gratitude on behalf of the International Monetary Fund and its staff for Pakistan’s assistance, in the safe and swift evacuation of Fund personnel and their families from Afghanistan,” reads the letter dated 23 August 2020, as shared by the PM Office on Tuesday.
The IMF head especially appreciated the “instrumental roles” played by Pakistan’s ministers of Foreign Affairs, Finance, and Defence, as well as the Governor State Bank of Pakistan.
“Pakistan’s efforts at the highest levels, amid immensely difficult and complex circumstances, to help the Fund by securing a corridor to the airport and arranging the convoy that included our staff, were absolutely critical to this successful evacuation,” she said.
“Thank you very much, from the bottom of my heart,” she said.
https://www.app.com.pk/top-news/imf-chief-thanks-pakistan-on-staffs-safe-swift-evacuation-from-kabul/
https://www.livemint.com/technology/tech-news/make-in-india-iphone-supplier-announces-big-expansion-of-india-business/amp-11629794890781.html
‘Make In India’: iPhone supplier announces big expansion of India business
As part of the deal with contract manufacturer Wistron, Optiemus will invest roughly $200 million to ramp up electronics manufacturing in the next three to five years
https://www.firstpost.com/india/americas-leading-hindu-advocacy-group-on-warpath-against-big-ticket-virtual-event-seeking-to-dismantle-global-hindutva-9900671.html
“America’s leading Hindu advocacy group on warpath against big-ticket virtual event seeking to ‘dismantle global Hindutva”
New topic 🙂
How do you find joy in all this negative stuff?
All this “negative events” really do is to act as revanchism for Hinduism back home. Creates asabiyah for more-Hindu people. Pushes Less-Hindu people to choose sides.
What’s not to get happy about…
Hindutva needs to rebrand as “communism with Dharmic characteristics”
https://www.yahoo.com/news/york-couple-allegedly-calls-police-163048076.html
Awful
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/how-india-lost-ground-to-pak-in-export-of-footballs/amp_articleshow/85609459.cms
How India lost ground to Pak in export of footballs
https://youtu.be/9Oy2dAjrUL0
Video about Reliance Jio’s rise
@Prats
Will the Internet really democratise in the future. I have read in a couple of places that it could fragment
https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes.com/amp/news/renewable/us-based-ohmium-launches-indias-first-green-hydrogen-electrolyzer-gigafactory/85587245
US-based Ohmium launches India’s first green hydrogen electrolyzer gigafactory
https://theprint.in/opinion/theres-indian-amnesia-about-those-behind-partition-its-time-to-call-out-the-ashrafs/721345/
There’s Indian amnesia about those behind Partition. It’s time to call out the Ashrāfs
Will the Internet really democratise in the future. I have read in a couple of places that it could fragment
I don’t know about democratization. A lot of people bullish on blockchain seem very utopian that it will fix everything. I am not so sure.
There are a few trends I see wrt the internet:
1. Internet is fragmenting already with different regulations in China, Europe, India than the US. The diversification will travel down the stack. I don’t think we’ll ever reach a place where these operate on completely different protocols that don’t speak to each other but we’ll start to see variations. That’s only natural.
2. Professionalization of content – most of the content creators were amateurs like people here on BP who do it for the joy of it. But now everything is being monetized, which means everything will also eventually be regulated, which means less subversion probably.
3. We are also for the first time seeing things like Cloudflare banning websites for holding certain political views.
4. People are spending more and more time and money on a certain set of apps and less on the open web.
3 and 4 basically mean that the ‘openness’ of the internet is going away anyway even without non-US countries doing anything.
I do think there’ll come a time when the internet in different parts of the world will look very different.
—–
I’ll also take this chance to address @IsThisReal ‘s point about Indian tech companies receiving a rush of capital infusion of late.
This is solely because of Tiger Global going on a spending spree in a climate of cheap money.
I have a more sober view on the tech sector in general. Things like logistics, B2B e-comm etc are going to become commodities very soon. They will reach every single market. Every smart investor realises that. That’s why you see even Pakistani startups raise money.
This is why the returns on tech by traditional hedge funds have started to become competitive with that by VCs. The tech sector is much more predictable now.
The point being, that capital was going to come into India in any case as India is a large-ish market and someone would have got funded. This doesn’t really indicate any kind of cutting edge innovation by Indian entrepreneurs nor does it mean it will provide India with any sort of advantage over other countries in the long term.
India still lags behind in sectors where the new venture money is headed – biotech, spacetech, EVs, batteries etc despite the slew of announcements that have been made recently in the latter two.
So it’d be prudent to not get over-excited by the unicorn boom. Those who will make money from this – good for them. Rest should keep their heads down and continue working.
Could you list out the reasons you are so pessimistic about India. I’m asking because you didn’t seem so a few months ago so want to know what all must have changed in the economy, is it mainly because of the second wave?
I wrote part of it in jest as writing practice to mimic the typical desi neoliberal like Mihir Sharma or someone.
I am not pessimistic on India but I do sometimes think we tend to underestimate Pakistan, which annoys me. So I try to balance it out. The growing differential between Pakistan and India is not a given. And India’s relative growth is not because we are doing something spectacularly great.
We have just been fucking up less than them and we have some bright spots where ambitious people can still do productive work. The size of the market ensures that we receive capital. That’s about it.
From this vantage point, I think India has been disappointing and we have the potential to do much more.
Not sure why u think we are fucking up less than them. The differential has decreased only in the last year, which has to do with covid lockdown which India implemented and Pakistan didnt, and frankly no one knew how things will turn out.
I mean India registered higher growth rate even after demonitization. That too on a larger base. I would say starting this year u will see India’s growth rates being higher than Pakistan again.
Pakistan has great potential to succeed – it’s ideologically more coherent than India, less linguistically and religiously diverse hence easier to govern in theory (FATA aside), has less crushing poverty, is more compact and lastly due to its more martial leanings is more likely to be swayed by a strongman figure if such a leader were to set his mind to develop the country into an economic powerhouse rather than a terror factory.
Maybe chaiman Xi could make still something of them, after all.
He will. Pakistan embracing China is smart. They can’t run their own show well. This has been demonstrated over and over again. Xi will run it better, no doubt. And they will make Pakistan very strong. It is in their interest to do so.
It is in their interest to see India maybe doing marginally better. But a moderately weak India pretty much sums up what they want.
India fucked itself by not getting economically stronger. It starts and ends with the economy. China is winning because of its economy. Very little else matters. USSR fell because of economy. Economy is what matters most.
All these things have been true for Pakistan from the start but it’s where it’s now. Pakistan homogeneity is enough to make it hybrid dictatorship but not a full fledged one like China. Plus it will always have bout of strongman which will push the country back ( mushraff, zia) as there will be strongmen who push it forward (ayub). Add to that enough democratic spoilers like PPP etc which will make the country more democratic at the cost of growth.
So all in all its growth has had spurts and decline. That’s the cycle it has been following since 90s.
Cool bike ride thru Kochi during lockdown. Somewhat clean and developed, which is nice to see. India still needs to do so much in terms of urban planning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxJxfSnRvWU
the “memorial” where Harris placed her flowers, positioned at the site of the crash, was intended as a tribute to the Vietnamese defenders who captured the pilot – not the American who’d crash-landed in their lake after already bombing their country 22 times, likely killing multiple innocent civilians along the way. A plaque at the crash site indicates as much:
https://twitter.com/cspan/status/1430488580602925059?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/india/uttar-pradesh-to-start-manufacturing-brahmos-missiles-soon/amp_articleshow/85592222.cms
Uttar Pradesh to start manufacturing BrahMos missiles soon
https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/palm-oil-cultivation-biodiversity-health-7470982/lite/
The dangers of India’s palm oil push
Pakistan “overtaking” India is even more ridiculous than India overtaking China.
Neither will happen.
Pakistan is going to keep on growing at it’s own pace. India will just keep on growing faster.
Pakistan will require 15-20 years to be at the level where India is NOW. By then India will have gone on further.
Pakistan’s per capita income and HDI is where India’s was in the late 2000s and mind you India’s growth rate at both is much much faster.
Pakistan also has a population growth rate of 2% (something that India had in 1990) compared to India’s 1% so they will have to grow their GDP faster than India by a percentage point to keep up at the same rate and more than that to close the gap.
In the last 30 years Pakistan has had higher GDP gowth rate than India’s only twice – 2000 where they had 4.3% vs 3.8% and 2020 due to Covid. Their economic fundamentals like investment and savings rates are way below India’s.
And things like economic complexity, foreign exchange reserves etc they are worse by a factor greater than 20x.
https://theprint.in/opinion/indias-economic-recovery-is-lopsided-its-firing-on-one-and-a-half-cylinders/722321/?amp
India’s economic recovery is lopsided. It’s firing on one and a half cylinders
https://www.reddit.com/r/IndiaSpeaks/comments/pbwab1/brahma_chellaney_after_helping_to_install_the/
Just lmfao. Radical leftist CCP sympathizer radical islamoapologist network is emerging