Please keep the other posts on topic. Use this for talking about whatever you want to talk about.
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SDutta
5 years ago
Razib,
Did you see Tony Joseph’s twitter spat with the Indiafacts guy? It started with this review of Joseph’s book: http://indiafacts.org/journalist-attempts-to-revive-aryan-invasion-myth-using-discredited-genetic-research-book-review/
I thought the review was a mix of OIT special pleading, Hindu nationalist conspiracy theory, and Western liberal progressiveness, in which the reviewer all but stops short of calling David Reich a Nazi, referring to the January 2019 NYT article on ancient DNA research. The reviewer challenged Joseph to a podcast debate which Joseph declined.
HM Brough, Buddha said that 10-11 saints composed, sang and founded much of Sanathana Dharma, including the Vedas and Samkhya. [In reality I would say 10-15 saints and their families/paramparas. Sanathana Dharma appears to have been mostly formed from a small number of individuals.]
When you use the word “Aryan” do you mean the 10-15 saints? Or do you mean “Arya” as in nobility? Or do you mean something else?
One possible meaning is a group of Jatis. But if so, which Jatis are being referred too? Chandra Vamsha? Surya Vamsha? Kashyapa Gotra? Gotras from other great saints? If so, which ones?
Do you have any thoughts about when these 10-15 saints might have lived or composed the early parts of Sanathana Dharma?
The article was nothing but Hindu-right wing whining.
The only valid criticism in it was Reich and his team monopolizing ancient DNA studies, but this doesn’t have anything to do with whether the studies are true or not.
Aryan Invasion/Migration is basically a fact now. Especially in light of the Rakhigarhi results.
The beginning of the era of energy without fuel relates to 1903, when Serbian scientist Nikola Tesla found a resonant transformer, and received at the output energy that is many times greater than the input. Using only one turbine, a Nigerian power plant and a power transmission system without conductors, Tesla could supply electricity to the whole country.
The journalist asked Tesla: “Where is the energy taken from?”
Tesla simply replied: “The energy is taken from the ether, I am cooling the ether and I turn it into electricity.”
After the journalists spread the news that any amount of energy could be taken from the vast area and could be transported without any distance at any distance, no coal, no oil or gas was used, an urgent session of the US government was held and bankers took a part.
In the books was noted that banker Bernard Baruch spoke to Morgan saying: “The newspapers write about Tesla, who wants to sell virtually free energy. If things happen, we will lose monopoly.”
This was an alarm after which it was decided to ban Tesla’s technology, and his patents were withdrawn from the libraries. The scientist was out of the media overnight, the families of Rothschild and Rockefeller were involved, who at the academies of science of various countries created commissions for “fighting with pseudo-science” that still hinder the development and introduction of technology without fuel.
Many physicists have died under strange circumstances, such as Anne Poenkare, Rusa Filipova and Pilchikova. In the end, it is planned to delete the term “ether” from physics. Photos (1min 44sec): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zImpBjzd4Ww
A project called “special theory of relativity” was created and they only needed a physicist to do it. And it happened through their cousin Oppenheimer.
Albert Einstein’s mother worked as a nannie in his family and he knew that her son was a physicist. She was concerned about her son’s scientific career and finally found a job that he had successfully accomplished.
The special operation for the introduction into the science of Einstein’s theory of relativity has been successfully realised. The incompatible concepts, such as space and time, are mixed together, what is the worst philosophical error. Theory of relativity applied on one point only when there is no speed really works because it is a theory for one point when the velocity is zero. At the same time, they generalised theory for any speed and again an error was made.
There is already evidence that the speed of light is not the greatest, there are particles moving faster, what scientists have already proved. It breaks the theory of relativity at the root and to some extent confirms the version that it has been consciously introduced and promoted to direct physics to the wrong direction.
The theory of relativity is an ordered theory and the main goal of this theory was not the truth, but the attempt to ban the concept of ether in physics and not to give the opportunity to develop a technology that would use Tesla’s inventions. Any country with enough free energy would be truly independent and a group of bankers who were striving to build new world order would lose their power. Together with dominance, they would lose some of their control, because oil and gas also represent the power.
Mostly typical Hindu names along with a few regional Punjabi ones.
Sikh names have completely changed in modern times. They are all called Jaspreet, Manpreet, Gurpreet or Jaswinder, Manvinder, Gurvinder. I have personally come across a Germanpreet and a Vigyaanjeet Singh. Dunno who started this strange trend of having all names use only a few suffixes and prefixes.
When hindu names started changing to more sanskritized abhishek, kunal, sachin, janamejaya sikh names started changing to the eet’s and nder’s. cuts both ways this.
In old Serbian language (e.g. Russian dictionary from 11c.AC) ‘Sing’ means ‘white’. The name SING was present in today’s Serbia in ancient times. During the Roman Empire the name of Belgrade was Singidunum. Some companies and cultural institutions still use this old name. This name was changed to the modern version Beo-grad (eng. Belgrade) with the same meaning – White City. Some names from the list sound familiar, e.g. names starting with Bhag and Jivan (modern version in Serbia is Zivan).
Sikhs were pretty much just a sect within Hinduism till 1920s. It was only after the Gurudwara reform movement and subsequent Sikh Gurdwaras Act, they started to insist on a separate ideintiy from Hindus.
Incidentally, Hindu-Muslim rift which was pretty much insignificant till 1920 burst onto the social fabric of India suddenly in 1920s. Hindu-Muslim riots, which were extremely rare aberrational events till 1920s became a regular feature of Indian socio-political life after 1920s.
Is it a coincidence that these schism in Indian populace suddenly appeared just after the Punjab disturbances and Jalianwala Bagh massacre of 1919 and Gandhi’s first mass movement (non-cooperation movement) of 1920.
Divide et impera! Long live the Queen!
🙂
Parallel Universe
5 years ago
Exaggerated? Think not.
The Savarkarite Resurgence in Three Paragraphs:
“But then you sent me yet another series of messages…..a series of WhatsApps about how “Muslims are the biggest threat to the well-being of India”. I couldn’t believe……. I actuallyasked you if someone was playing a distasteful prank with your phone. You told me in all seriousness that you were the sender.
You then sent me a long message explaining in painstaking detail how dangerous Muslims are, and how they are the root cause of India’s problems. At which point, I blew a fuse and asked you, “What happened to all those books you keep reading and recommending on spirituality, peace, and positive thinking?” To which you replied, “Spiritual things are different. One has to be practical.”
For the next few days, you sent me daily videos and messages trying to convince me how the BJP and Modi are India’s only hope and how they are the only ones who can “solve the Muslim problem”. “
Just wanted to point out that the Elamo-Dravidian or Zagrosian hypothesis is not part of mainstream linguistics by any means and is very much in the infancy of being developed (AFAIK, by 2 linguists (apart from probably some from the long-range-comparisonist Russian school)) currently.
(Okay now I’m a bit more peaceful after writing that extremely cringeworthy comment on the other thread previously. I had inadvertently subjected myself to some very flaming flashes of examples of India’s religious diversity and extremities online and simply could not deal with that and required somewhere to vent.)
The genetics do seem to make sense perhaps but the linguistics might not and importantly, need not. The Early Neolithic-Iran ancestry (which is as old as 9000-10000 years) may connect as different and diverse a language family as Sumerian, Hurro-Urartian, Elamite, Dravidian, Burushaski (possibly), etc. But the most important point is that it is probably extremely difficult to actually establish to any meaningful degree all these language families as deeply related because that has to be done through linguistics only and without new language data discovered in the future helping these proposals, it likely cannot be done. It is best in such circumstances to think of Iran_N as just Iran_N and not as some kind of union of Elamite+Dravidian+some_others, etc. I think such associations – especially those for which there is low amount of scholarly support – can be made of course but there has to be clear declarations that these are so speculative and not established in the scholarly community currently.
It also certainly appears disingenuous to me when people use Brahui to their benefit like that however they please, without telling the full story. I would at least mention the other view held by many respected linguists that Brahui may have been a migrant to its current area from western-central India much later than the initial Proto-Dravidian expansion. Especially if it’s the dominant view currently even though there is a strong possibility that it may change in the future. (Yes I know about Brahui genetics and yes I also think more work has to be done on the North Dravidian side both by linguists supporting more traditional viewpoints and those having quite radical views like the Elamo-Dravidian hypothesis, at least in the most dominant formulation of which Brahui even ceases to be Dravidian and becomes a closer sister of Elamite!)
St. Andrew First Chosen (i.e. Andrey Prvozvani) is the first Jesus’s follower. Together with his brother, St. Peter, went to Serbia for his first ‘barefooted’ preaching assignment. St. Peter founded the first Christian diocese in Sirmium, Serbia. After that he went to Rome (where he was later hanged in the Emperor Neron’s home garden) while Andrew went to Kiev. Founded Constantinople’s patriarchy. Later, he was also crucified. He is a patron of Russian and Serbian royal families, Romanov and Karadjordjevic. His day is celebrated as a day when Belgrade was liberated from Turks.
Razib,
Did you see Tony Joseph’s twitter spat with the Indiafacts guy? It started with this review of Joseph’s book:
http://indiafacts.org/journalist-attempts-to-revive-aryan-invasion-myth-using-discredited-genetic-research-book-review/
I thought the review was a mix of OIT special pleading, Hindu nationalist conspiracy theory, and Western liberal progressiveness, in which the reviewer all but stops short of calling David Reich a Nazi, referring to the January 2019 NYT article on ancient DNA research. The reviewer challenged Joseph to a podcast debate which Joseph declined.
You have a link to the Twitter spat?
My God, why do people obsess so much about Aryan Invasion…might as well obsess about Ostsiedlung…
This is a corner stone of the world history. The current official (wiki-vatican) version of history was falsified.
HM Brough, Buddha said that 10-11 saints composed, sang and founded much of Sanathana Dharma, including the Vedas and Samkhya. [In reality I would say 10-15 saints and their families/paramparas. Sanathana Dharma appears to have been mostly formed from a small number of individuals.]
When you use the word “Aryan” do you mean the 10-15 saints? Or do you mean “Arya” as in nobility? Or do you mean something else?
One possible meaning is a group of Jatis. But if so, which Jatis are being referred too? Chandra Vamsha? Surya Vamsha? Kashyapa Gotra? Gotras from other great saints? If so, which ones?
Do you have any thoughts about when these 10-15 saints might have lived or composed the early parts of Sanathana Dharma?
Thanks for the link. While I read half of the article, it has valid points and can´t be brushed aside as Hindu nationalist Rightwing whining.
The article was nothing but Hindu-right wing whining.
The only valid criticism in it was Reich and his team monopolizing ancient DNA studies, but this doesn’t have anything to do with whether the studies are true or not.
Aryan Invasion/Migration is basically a fact now. Especially in light of the Rakhigarhi results.
AFAIK the Rakhigarhi results aren’t out yet.
It was leaked last year that the sample didn’t have any Aryan DNA, which pretty much confirms Aryan Invasion/Migration.
tony joseph should have accepted the challenge.
https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/backlash-after-royal-kiss-and-tell/cid/1343537
Hell hath no fury …
The beginning of the era of energy without fuel relates to 1903, when Serbian scientist Nikola Tesla found a resonant transformer, and received at the output energy that is many times greater than the input. Using only one turbine, a Nigerian power plant and a power transmission system without conductors, Tesla could supply electricity to the whole country.
The journalist asked Tesla: “Where is the energy taken from?”
Tesla simply replied: “The energy is taken from the ether, I am cooling the ether and I turn it into electricity.”
After the journalists spread the news that any amount of energy could be taken from the vast area and could be transported without any distance at any distance, no coal, no oil or gas was used, an urgent session of the US government was held and bankers took a part.
In the books was noted that banker Bernard Baruch spoke to Morgan saying: “The newspapers write about Tesla, who wants to sell virtually free energy. If things happen, we will lose monopoly.”
This was an alarm after which it was decided to ban Tesla’s technology, and his patents were withdrawn from the libraries. The scientist was out of the media overnight, the families of Rothschild and Rockefeller were involved, who at the academies of science of various countries created commissions for “fighting with pseudo-science” that still hinder the development and introduction of technology without fuel.
Many physicists have died under strange circumstances, such as Anne Poenkare, Rusa Filipova and Pilchikova. In the end, it is planned to delete the term “ether” from physics. Photos (1min 44sec):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zImpBjzd4Ww
A project called “special theory of relativity” was created and they only needed a physicist to do it. And it happened through their cousin Oppenheimer.
Albert Einstein’s mother worked as a nannie in his family and he knew that her son was a physicist. She was concerned about her son’s scientific career and finally found a job that he had successfully accomplished.
The special operation for the introduction into the science of Einstein’s theory of relativity has been successfully realised. The incompatible concepts, such as space and time, are mixed together, what is the worst philosophical error. Theory of relativity applied on one point only when there is no speed really works because it is a theory for one point when the velocity is zero. At the same time, they generalised theory for any speed and again an error was made.
There is already evidence that the speed of light is not the greatest, there are particles moving faster, what scientists have already proved. It breaks the theory of relativity at the root and to some extent confirms the version that it has been consciously introduced and promoted to direct physics to the wrong direction.
The theory of relativity is an ordered theory and the main goal of this theory was not the truth, but the attempt to ban the concept of ether in physics and not to give the opportunity to develop a technology that would use Tesla’s inventions. Any country with enough free energy would be truly independent and a group of bankers who were striving to build new world order would lose their power. Together with dominance, they would lose some of their control, because oil and gas also represent the power.
Name of 21 Sikh soldiers who died at the Battle of Saragarhi
1. Havildar Ishar Singh (regimental number 165)
2. Naik Lal Singh (332)
3. Lance Naik Chanda Singh (546)
4. Sepoy Sundar Singh (1321)
5. Sepoy Ram Singh (287)
6. Sepoy Uttar Singh (492)
7. Sepoy Sahib Singh (182)
8. Sepoy Hira Singh (359)
9. Sepoy Daya Singh (687)
10.Sepoy Jivan Singh (760)
11.Sepoy Bhola Singh (791)
12.Sepoy Narayan Singh (834)
13.Sepoy Gurmukh Singh (814)
14.Sepoy Jivan Singh (871)
15.Sepoy Gurmukh Singh (1733)
16.Sepoy Ram Singh (163)
17.Sepoy Bhagwan Singh (1257)
18.Sepoy Bhagwan Singh (1265)
19.Sepoy Buta Singh (1556)
20.Sepoy Jivan Singh (1651)
21.Sepoy Nand Singh (1221)
Mostly typical Hindu names along with a few regional Punjabi ones.
Sikh names have completely changed in modern times. They are all called Jaspreet, Manpreet, Gurpreet or Jaswinder, Manvinder, Gurvinder. I have personally come across a Germanpreet and a Vigyaanjeet Singh. Dunno who started this strange trend of having all names use only a few suffixes and prefixes.
When hindu names started changing to more sanskritized abhishek, kunal, sachin, janamejaya sikh names started changing to the eet’s and nder’s. cuts both ways this.
In old Serbian language (e.g. Russian dictionary from 11c.AC) ‘Sing’ means ‘white’. The name SING was present in today’s Serbia in ancient times. During the Roman Empire the name of Belgrade was Singidunum. Some companies and cultural institutions still use this old name. This name was changed to the modern version Beo-grad (eng. Belgrade) with the same meaning – White City. Some names from the list sound familiar, e.g. names starting with Bhag and Jivan (modern version in Serbia is Zivan).
Sikhs were pretty much just a sect within Hinduism till 1920s. It was only after the Gurudwara reform movement and subsequent Sikh Gurdwaras Act, they started to insist on a separate ideintiy from Hindus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_Gurdwaras_Act,_1925
Incidentally, Hindu-Muslim rift which was pretty much insignificant till 1920 burst onto the social fabric of India suddenly in 1920s. Hindu-Muslim riots, which were extremely rare aberrational events till 1920s became a regular feature of Indian socio-political life after 1920s.
Is it a coincidence that these schism in Indian populace suddenly appeared just after the Punjab disturbances and Jalianwala Bagh massacre of 1919 and Gandhi’s first mass movement (non-cooperation movement) of 1920.
Divide et impera! Long live the Queen!
🙂
Exaggerated? Think not.
The Savarkarite Resurgence in Three Paragraphs:
“But then you sent me yet another series of messages…..a series of WhatsApps about how “Muslims are the biggest threat to the well-being of India”. I couldn’t believe……. I actuallyasked you if someone was playing a distasteful prank with your phone. You told me in all seriousness that you were the sender.
You then sent me a long message explaining in painstaking detail how dangerous Muslims are, and how they are the root cause of India’s problems. At which point, I blew a fuse and asked you, “What happened to all those books you keep reading and recommending on spirituality, peace, and positive thinking?” To which you replied, “Spiritual things are different. One has to be practical.”
For the next few days, you sent me daily videos and messages trying to convince me how the BJP and Modi are India’s only hope and how they are the only ones who can “solve the Muslim problem”. “
https://thewire.in/politics/letter-to-a-friend-who-happens-to-be-a-modi-supporter
http://www.seenunseen.in/episodes/2019/3/18/episode-112-early-indians
Tony Joseph (dont think i need to add more 😛 )
Just wanted to point out that the Elamo-Dravidian or Zagrosian hypothesis is not part of mainstream linguistics by any means and is very much in the infancy of being developed (AFAIK, by 2 linguists (apart from probably some from the long-range-comparisonist Russian school)) currently.
(Okay now I’m a bit more peaceful after writing that extremely cringeworthy comment on the other thread previously. I had inadvertently subjected myself to some very flaming flashes of examples of India’s religious diversity and extremities online and simply could not deal with that and required somewhere to vent.)
But the genetics make sense.
The genetics do seem to make sense perhaps but the linguistics might not and importantly, need not. The Early Neolithic-Iran ancestry (which is as old as 9000-10000 years) may connect as different and diverse a language family as Sumerian, Hurro-Urartian, Elamite, Dravidian, Burushaski (possibly), etc. But the most important point is that it is probably extremely difficult to actually establish to any meaningful degree all these language families as deeply related because that has to be done through linguistics only and without new language data discovered in the future helping these proposals, it likely cannot be done. It is best in such circumstances to think of Iran_N as just Iran_N and not as some kind of union of Elamite+Dravidian+some_others, etc. I think such associations – especially those for which there is low amount of scholarly support – can be made of course but there has to be clear declarations that these are so speculative and not established in the scholarly community currently.
It also certainly appears disingenuous to me when people use Brahui to their benefit like that however they please, without telling the full story. I would at least mention the other view held by many respected linguists that Brahui may have been a migrant to its current area from western-central India much later than the initial Proto-Dravidian expansion. Especially if it’s the dominant view currently even though there is a strong possibility that it may change in the future. (Yes I know about Brahui genetics and yes I also think more work has to be done on the North Dravidian side both by linguists supporting more traditional viewpoints and those having quite radical views like the Elamo-Dravidian hypothesis, at least in the most dominant formulation of which Brahui even ceases to be Dravidian and becomes a closer sister of Elamite!)
https://twitter.com/JardindAcclim/status/1107564508007092224
And so goes Holi too…
Baloch Liberation Army attacks Chinese assets for 3rd time since Aug 2018
Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/68664144.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
New York Post cover featuring Ilhan Omar quote infuriates Democratic colleagues
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/11/politics/new-york-post-cover-9-11-remarks-omar/index.html
Todd Starnes: Hey Ilhan Omar, 9/11 was about Muslims waging Jihad on America
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/todd-starnes-ilhan-omar-9-11-was-about-muslims-waging-jihad-on-america
In the mean time, a similar case of verbal diarrhea from the Indian far left.
https://www.timesnownews.com/elections/article/you-can-block-me-but-you-won-t-be-able-to-block-130-cr-indians-gautam-gambhir-hits-back-at-mehbooba-mufti/398580
Russian award ‘Order of St Andrew the Apostle’ for Modi
https://www.deccanherald.com/national/russian-award-order-of-st-andrew-the-apostle-for-modi-728306.html
St. Andrew First Chosen (i.e. Andrey Prvozvani) is the first Jesus’s follower. Together with his brother, St. Peter, went to Serbia for his first ‘barefooted’ preaching assignment. St. Peter founded the first Christian diocese in Sirmium, Serbia. After that he went to Rome (where he was later hanged in the Emperor Neron’s home garden) while Andrew went to Kiev. Founded Constantinople’s patriarchy. Later, he was also crucified. He is a patron of Russian and Serbian royal families, Romanov and Karadjordjevic. His day is celebrated as a day when Belgrade was liberated from Turks.