As a minority, it is the everyday discrimination that hurts me most
In a campaign led by a few other residents, the Hindu family was refused their basic right of acquiring the property. It was claimed that instructions to prevent Hindus from acquiring apartments had come from an army office located near the building, based on the so-called belief that all Hindus are Indian spies. That claim was later found out to be false.
Personal conversations revealed that the bigoted residents were actually really concerned about the family setting up idols in their home as part of their religious rites. There were some other, more rational residents, who suggested that what the Hindu family did in their home was their private business, but the voices of sanity were silenced.
The article is written by a Pakistani Christian and is couched in the language of engrained fear. No Pakistani minority will dare lash out in the same manner that Indian Muslims do.
I eagerly await Kabir Bhai and his fellow Pakistani liberals to lecture us:
(1.) Pakistan is a Muslim state so that there is absolutely nothing we can do about this.
(2.) India does the same thing with vegetarian colonies.
The Roots of Hindu Rage are very simple. They are seeing their Hindu kin being turned into second-class citizens all over the Muslim world, while the Indian Muslim minority flaunt (and exploit) their privileges in India. Compared to the Muslim minority in Myanmar, China or even Israel; Indian Muslims have it exceptionally easy.
AR Rahman and Adnan Sami were holding court like demi-gods in the Voice yesterday; I cannot think of a single society where Muslims & Islamicate culture hold so much prestige.
If the same thing had happened to India to a Muslim family; the Nehruvians, post-modernists and NGOs would make sure it’s front page news.
Nehru India as the “Deep State”
The Deep State of India is Nehruvian India, which is driven to ensure that the post-Independence constitutional settlement endures. The inane constitutional settlement ensures that India will always be a fractured nation and therefore will need a “Dynasty” to wield power.
Would HinduRashtra split India?
Hindu India would not lead to a fractured India because most of the Hindu states and population are anyway strongly Hindu. The only non-Hindu states (Punjab, some of the seven sisters) would be able to safeguard their own local traditions in the same manner Tamils have done with regards to Hindi; they are not pan-Indian ethnicities. There is only one minority that will screech and battle every step to Hindu Rashtra and that is the Muslim minority. They will never sing Vande Mataram or appease the Hindu majority. Babri Masjid need not have been destroyed; Hindus are not a vengeful people and Ram idols in the building would have turned it into another Balaji site.
What is happening is that Hindu Rage at Muslim behaviour is instead being deflected towards Islamicate culture (and the odd riot) and therefore Allahabad pays the prices for Allah refusing to share the limelight with Hindu deities.
Rahul Gandhi in context with the rest of the global Left
There is nothing miraculous about Rahul Gandhi’s resurgence; it is the same syndrome you see in progressive parties all over the world.
Rahul Gandhi is Jeremy Corbyn, Beto O’Rourke, Justin Trudeau and even Macron. The diverse left needs a straight white male figurehead/kingmaker to hold its coalition together whereas the right can experiment with different leaders (May, Merkel, Modi, Marine Le Pen).
Nehru India as the Brahmin bulwark against a Shudra HinduRashtra
The upper caste urban vote bank of the BJP feel their guilt expiated when they are able to vote for a OBC like Modi; it may be a reason why Advani (a Sindhi Brahmin) never made it as PM. Maybe the Brahmins of the BJP aren’t able to maybe fight tooth and claw or as hard their Shudra counterparts?
It also raises an interesting question that if Hindu India’s best dynasties were actually Shudra (Gupta, Mauryas), then is the Mughal-British-Nehruvian Deep State of India committed to Brahmin rule by the Nehru-Gandhi clan as opposed to Shudra Rule by the BJP?
The Vijaynagar Empire and the saving of the Hindu Majority
It is interesting how Indian history is taught in a very misleading way. Akbar and the Mughals are presented as Indian (which is questionable since their eye-watering opulence, the Peacock Throne apparently cost twice as much as the Taj) but the Vijaynagar Empire is seen as a footnote (there is an important twitter thread on it, which I can’t find).
The Vijaynagar Empire probably did save Hinduism from Islam by keeping South India structurally and absolutely Hindu. It is interesting that Northwest and north east India are majority Muslim (when one includes Pak & Bangladesh into it) but that South India, the other great wing of India, is 90%+ Hindu. There is no reason why South India & the Deccan, relatively far from the Brahmanical and Sanskrit core of UP, should not have had a substantially Muslim contiguous belt like the Punjab and Bengal.
There are different reasons as to why the Punjab and Bengal became Muslim but by the time the Muslim dynasties had infiltrated the South, there was an intellectually and ideologically resilient Hindu population.
I would also hazard that though the Deep State is optically secular-Hindu but structurally Mughal & British.
Part-Partition – the worst of all worlds
It explains why Nehru and Gandhi agreed to a “worst of all worlds” with a part-partition when they should have either gone for No-Partition or a Full Partition.
They could have made false promises to Jinnah, keep India united, wait for Jinnah to die and then set about their true scheme- that was the modus operandi of Jinnah and Iqbal to lie compulsively, promise everything and never settle except for what they wanted. Pakistan is only following the blueprint set by Jinnah and Iqbal.
Otherwise in a “Full Partition” Gandhi and Nehru should have insisted on a full and final exchange of populations in the mode of Greece & Turkey. Even though Greece and Turkey have a bloody history; it is not as tortuous as India and Pakistan. This is because India & Pakistan had an incomplete partition by Nehruvian-Gandhian design. Gandhi was assassinated on his way to advocated for the rights of Pakistan.
South India as the only “structurally” Hindu society
It is only South India and Bali that are structurally Hindu societies (is it any wonder that the great architectural monuments in the South are Temples and in the North are Mosques) but these thoughts are either for another post, my journal or my locked blog (sometimes my writings can be eye-watering controversial and I prefer them somewhere safe but private).
Nehru-India is an Open State not a Deep one.
Good write up Zack. Humorous but striking major points politically.
Brahmins ended up with an artificially amplified presence in the public space due to the British education system that wanted clerks for the Raj. Otherwise the gunas (qualities) of Brahmins do not tend well for holding reins of political power, not in the way it is today which is unprecedented. Yes the great Shudra dynasty like Mauryas did have a Kautilya whispering into the ear of the ruler. That is different from actually holding and executing power.
The real Brahmins of India are at this point abdicating political power back to the ones that have been bred for statecraft. The fake ones will hold on for short sighted self preservation. And the Nehru-Gandhi clan is seriously lost and cannot even claim Brahmin jaatitva at all. Indira’s late husband was a Parsee, Raul’s mom is an Italian of nil academic/scholarly background. They can pander all they want about janeudhari etc lol, they are past their date.
What is very scary for me is the fact that the Mahathugbandhan gives Mamata Banerjee a legitimate shot at becoming PM.
“Brahmins ended up with an artificially amplified presence in the public space due to the British education system that wanted clerks for the Raj. Otherwise the gunas (qualities) of Brahmins do not tend well for holding reins of political power, not in the way it is today which is unprecedented. Yes the great Shudra dynasty like Mauryas did have a Kautilya whispering into the ear of the ruler. That is different from actually holding and executing power.”
Truer words have never been spoken. You can add creating & running businesses to that list as well. The way Brahmins clamor for menial govt. positions especially in UP & Bihar only to have a small steady income and responsibility free jobs, shows they lack the cultural ethos to survive in the modern world. Nehruvian economics made the Brahmin caste survive for longer than it would have otherwise.
Brahmin ethos is also the worst enemy of Hindutva and Hinduism in the modern world. No wonder a lot of educated Indian Brahmins and those influenced by this Brahmin ethos are to be found opposing Hindutva in India. Just take a look at the castes of the Communist party’s top leadership or the Professors from JNU.
IMO, the current ‘gunas’ of Brahmins are a degraded version of the culture which may have once existed. A culture which pursued intellectual and technical achievement and expected the material world around it to support it in return for enriching the society. Sort of like an ancient (hereditary) tenure system.
No wonder a lot of educated Indian Brahmins and those influenced by this Brahmin ethos are to be found opposing Hindutva in India.
Don’t necessarily disagree with you about the degenerate Brahminical ethos and the lack of ambition and enterprise that inculcates, but the above is just silly. You’ll find Brahmins overrepresented in Hindutva circles too (probably exceeded only by the merchant classes.)
Of course Brahmins are represented in Hindutva circles as they are represented in every facet of urban Indian society. I am talking general trends and not specific instances.
Brahmins haven’t really made a success of Hindutva for themselves or for the movement. How many Brahmins for all their theological knowledge and English education have been able to come up with a good intellectual framework for Hindutva which might work in the modern world?
I would argue that Brahminical culture and ethos finds greater congruence with Socialist doctrines. Dislike of business and money making, aversion towards manual labour and exercise are very much ingrained in Brahminical attitudes. This makes it very easy for Brahmins to join Leftists and start denouncing ‘rapacious’ traders and capitalists.
It wasn’t just his western cambridge education and exposure to Fabian socialism which made Nehru and his ilk (V K Krishna Menon for instance) great admirers of Communism. The fact that they came from Brahmin families had something to do with it.
Hello Janamejaya, just a very minor factual correction – the Malayalam surname menOn is not a Brahmin surname as far as I know; it falls under the Nair category if I’m not wrong. I’m extremely sorry for intruding and also possibly assuming any erroneous things that you did not imply.
Happy to be corrected Santosh.
Menon indeed is not a Brahmin surname.
I blv the point about Nehru’s priors still stands though.
Brahmins of UP and Bihar have not even done well the one thing they are supposed to do – knowledge creation.
If you look at the faculty list of top national colleges, it is filled with South Indian, Bengali, some Marathi, and possibly Kashmiri Brahmins.
You might find more Shrivastavas, Kalras and Jains than you would Shuklas and Dubeys inspite of the demographic difference.
That is indeed true.
UP and Bihar Brahmins are over represented in govt. jobs of the civil service, PSUs, Banking PSU types.
As I said the ethos encourages them to find a job with no responsibility. Becoming a faculty at IITs/IIMs is not easy. You have to have a PhD from a reputed college. And getting a PhD is more open ended (and hence risky) than mugging up for a Civil Service exam.
Its changing a bit now though. But not by much.
I have someone in my extended family, who is Btech from AMU and MTech from IIT-Roorkee, both in electrical engg. Currently working in Bihar govt. electricity board. And preparing for what else but the IAS exam. Such a waste of knowledge and effort.
That’s indeed sad. I too have some talented friends wasting away the prime of their lives like that.
No amount of convincing can change their mind.
The biggest change in the last couple of decades is the massive influx of baniyas into education.
Baniyas are the new Brahmins and unlike Brahmins they are not completely useless in other areas, like business.
Its also a problem of wrong incentives IMO.
Living in India is much easier and comfortable for an IAS officer than for a high achieving engineer or even a well paid Doctor in the pvt. sector. You have immense power to lord it over your subject and enjoy extremely good perks.
Its an easier effort becoming an IAS officer and once you get it you can just relax. A Doctor or an engineer on the other hand has to keep up the effort throughout his life. The fact that an IAS is a glorified clerk and contributes zero to the society’s productivity is of no consequence in this strange system. They really are the true inheritors of our Mughal and British overlords.
Generally as a govt. employee accessing other govt. services is much easier than if one is working in the pvt. sector. At officer level in any govt job, one doesn’t have to stand in line for getting a passport or a driver’s license or getting some property registered. One generally knows someone in those departments who will get the job done for an equivalent favor from you.
It is more a problem in UP and Bihar than other parts of the country because people have no opportunity or exposure.
I was travelling by train in UP last year and there was this group of civil engineering students going from Rampur to Meerut for some exam. None of them were interested in the stuff in their books. Trying to learn definitions by rote.
“What do you mean by strength?” asked one and then the other person mindlessly tried to repeat a definition, made an elementary error because he was obviously uncomfortable with English.
They soon chucked the books. The most ambitious person in that group was a guy whose uncle had a coaching institute and he already had a decent paying teaching job lined up there after graduation. The rest were going to prepare for bank or some such exam.
Contrast this with Karnataka where students even in the lowest ranking of colleges will take up learning JavaScript on the side so they can hunt for a decent paying job at a startup. That hustle and dynamism is missing.
“Otherwise the gunas (qualities) of Brahmins do not tend well for holding reins of political power, not in the way it is today which is unprecedented.”
This is obsessive compulsive Brahmin bashing routinely parroted in Ambedkarite circles, but is it founded in facts? Has anyone bothered to read late medieval Indian history before making such superficial comments? Do you know that Nanasaheb Peshwa directly or indirectly ruled more territory and more Indians than any other Hindu emperor since Chandragupta Vikramaditya? Do you know that British acquired fifty million new subjects just by defeating the last Peshwa Bajirao II?
Brahmin history is brushed under the carpet for obvious reasons. They are numerical not significant enough in an electoral democracy.
And is it even meaningful to talk about castes of Chandragupta Maurya and Chanakya who lived almost 2.5K years ago? If you are not aware, I recommend you read the works of MN Srinivas for a primer on castes. He has amply demonstrated the fluidity of Indian caste structures. To suggest that Brahmins and Shudras of 2.5K years ago were the endogamous groups of same name of today is ridiculous. For all that we know, during Mauryan times Brahmin could just be a designation, applicable to any literate person. In fact caste endogamy hadn’t even set in till the end of Gupta empire.
It explains why Nehru and Gandhi agreed to a “worst of all worlds” with a part-partition when they should have either gone for No-Partition or a Full Partition.
Based on what I’ve read, Nehru thought Partition would eventually be reversed, when the Muslims, especially the League separatists, saw the error of their ways. Of course, the bloodbath during Partition (and especially in Punjab) and the dispute over Kashmir put paid to that.
A Full Partition would have been impossible on the time scale the Congress had set out (and eventually Mountbatten) for Independence. Congress was ideologically committed to getting the British out ASAP, and I think Jinnah secretly concurred, because chances are many of the Muslim separatists might have had second thoughts about the necessity of Partition the longer the drama played out.
Those who favored partition wanted the English out fast.
Those who favored a united India (like me) should have favored a more gradual English departure. A conditions based departure based on Indian merit, capacity, competence. The world would have been far better off under this scenario. India would have had to solve most global Jihadi Islamism, Pakistan and Afghanistan rather than the world as a whole. India would have had to take on the Gulfie establishment.
I agree with AnAn. Dragging out the Independence by few years by making the British wholly responsible for delivering united India and making all minority and majorities in the proposed Pakistan area and India areas discuss vigorously what are their interests and how will it be best served , would have been a productive process, even if indeed Pakistan could not be avoided.
Nehru and Gandhi became prisoners of their own slogans for 30 years , Quit Now. They did not show strategic flexibility .
To be fair Gandhi changed in late 1945 and wanted the English to leave more gradually. Gandhiji pleaded with legislative councils elected in 1946 to dissolve themselves, forcing the English to call new elections and delay their departure.
The English were not willing to listen. The English wanted to run away as soon as possible. To their shame and disgrace.
The last Commander-in-Chief, India (commander of the British Indian Army) General Sir Claude Auchinleck is someone I greatly admire and respect. To quote from wikipedia:
“On 1 June 1946 he was promoted to field marshal, but he refused to accept a peerage, lest he be thought associated with a policy (i.e. Partition) that he thought fundamentally dishonourable.[69]”
No muslim separatist were having any second thought. The die was cast. Specially the election of 46 , it was just the modalities being iron out. I mean just read about the laughable solutions provided by the hindu side (apart from Congress), for the Pakistan issue (i dont blame the muslim separatist after reading that), it had things like “Hardayal solution” (still very prevalent in hindu nationalism circles, the whole “Akhand Bharat”) which proposed mass conversion of Punjab and Bengal back to Hinduism. I mean what is this? Some 10th century Russia or what. LOL
Numinous
No muslim separatist were having any second thought. The die was cast. Specially the election of 46 , it was just the modalities being iron out. I mean just read about the laughable solutions provided by the hindu side (apart from Congress), for the Pakistan issue (i dont blame the muslim separatist after reading that), it had things like “Hardayal solution” (still very prevalent in hindu nationalism circles, the whole “Akhand Bharat”) which proposed mass conversion of Punjab and Bengal back to Hinduism. I mean what is this? Some 10th century Russia or what. LOL
Saurav, my understanding is that muslims would remain muslim. They would just be treated as Hindu muslims.
Hinduism has many Darshanas inside it such as Buddhism, Jainism, Chaarvaaka. De facto I would add Bon, Sikhism as well. I also believe that Zorastrianism and Toaism should be formally added.
The Hinduttva and RSS crowd wanted to add Christianity and Islam as two additional Darshanas inside Hinduism. Muslims would still remain authentic muslims, believing and practicing whatever they want. They would just simultaneously be authentic Hindus.
Eastern philosophy has no concept or understanding of “religion” as modern global academia understands it. And especially does not understand exclusivity. Why can’t someone be authentically and truly many things at once? Why does someone have to choose?
Let me quote the eastern and my own understanding of “religion” from Swami Vivekananda. Vivekananda use to say that samadhi (mystical absorption beyond thought where there is no observer, observed or process of observing) is where religion starts:
“The fact that one man ever reached that state (Samadhi) proves that it is possible for every man to do so. Not only is it possible, but every man must, eventually, get to that state, and this is religion.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=865&v=nOM8wKLVKUk
Saurav, when emotion flows . . . beauty comes . . . sweet serenity with love all around, love only. Theism drops away. Aham (I am) Nirvikalpa, Nirakara Rupo (no quality, no form, no pattern). Atheism
For me religion, spirituality, science, secularism, atheism are all extensions of the same thing. “Religion” and “religions”. Singular and plural. Diversity and unity at once. Differences complement and unite religions.
Dialogue requires understanding. If you want what you write to be understood by those from an eastern philisophical background, you need to understand them. And they need to understand you. Without understanding there can be no adjustment. With understanding adjustment is automatic.
Part of the issue is that almost no non Pakistani understands Pakistan. Even most Pakistanis don’t understand Pakistan. This leads to a commedy of errors and misunderstanding in all global relations and interactions with Pakistanis. This video is a great primer on how Pakistan works (you might need to rewatch a few times to understand segments):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wrSSPPg5_E
Is it time for Brown Cast [specifically Zach] to interview Hussain Haqqani and Prof Christine Fair?
If this kind of topic is of interest, please indicate this in the comment section.
“The Deep State of India is Nehruvian India, which is driven to ensure that the post-Independence constitutional settlement endures. .”
In the wikileaks published around 2008-09 , Rahul Gandhi made a profound statement to the american high commissioner that Congress is like the default Operating system of India. And people will always revert back to them once they have their fling occasional with another party. So there will be times when they will not be in power, but like the Pakistani army they will always be in power.
“There is only one minority that will screech and battle every step to Hindu Rashtra and that is the Muslim minority.”
Its funny you say that because as noted by Kabir the hindu nationalist are more concerned of the “heretic” rather than the “heathen”. The heathen can be taken care of later , but the heretic has to be purged to maintain uniformity. The problem is the heretic is shooting from the shoulder of the heathen and now he is caught in the crossfire even if he doesn’t want to.
https://scroll.in/article/831693/the-fear-of-hindu-rashtra-should-muslims-keep-away-from-electoral-politics
“A segment of Hindus hates the very sight of Muslims,” he said. “Their icon is Narendra Modi. But 75% of Hindus are secular. Let them fight out over the kind of India they want.”
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” and therefore Allahabad pays the prices for Allah refusing to share the limelight with Hindu deities.”
This is just the start for hindutva. In Ram-Babri case there are still allegations and counter allegation whether there was a temple or not. But what happens when there are clear markers of a temple destroyed and a mosque built. This is just getting started.
https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/chariots-of-fire/220967
“Prof Irfan Habib of the Aligarh Muslim University (AMU): “A temple was destroyed to build the mosque in Mathura. There are no doubts on that. ..”
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“The upper caste urban vote bank of the BJP feel their guilt expiated when they are able to vote for a OBC like Modi; it may be a reason why Advani (a Sindhi Brahmin) never made it as PM.”
Advani was never PM becasue he has no votebank . But yeah Modi is probably the only OBC leader ever in India’s independent history who can command upper caste vote at will. Like i feel Congress can put a Shankracharya on the ticket and even the brahmins would still vote for Modi. Lol.
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“The Vijaynagar Empire probably did save Hinduism from Islam by keeping South India structurally and absolutely Hindu.”
I dont think the people who are the inheritors of that empire tamils , kannadigas and telegu folks see it that way. The literature which has come from that areas is mostly cosmopolitan in nature about that era. They themselves dont see it as hindu-muslim issue. The problem rises when either ethnicity(North/South and East) tries to construct and form a uniform “Indian” history based on their own history and superimposing them on others.
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“Otherwise in a “Full Partition” Gandhi and Nehru should have insisted on a full and final exchange of populations in the mode of Greece & Turkey.”
Ambedkar and Jinnah both proposed it. Congress rejected it, but during partition the Hindu/Sikhs groups became amenable to it and then Jinnah got cold feet understanding the magnitude of his earlier proposition, sort of reneged on it even before Congress could reconsider their stance (which they wouldn’t have anyway).
Sauravji, you are describing people I have never met. Have you ever met a Hinduttva type person who didn’t love Swami Vivekananda and who didn’t deeply revere statements like this?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_sQBT-cpyA
If you have, please share.
What is heretic? What is heathen? Do these concepts exist in the east? The east has saucha and suchi. But these have different meanings.
What a wonderful piece of article, it captures a lot of areas in a few statements. Let’s spread the message ‘vasudaiva kutumbakam” at the same time holding ones own cultural aspects and mutually respect one another keeping the hatred that our ancestors had. we should evolve to be better humans.
What hatred did our ancestors have?
Actually Marylou Andrew’s piece makes the issue of ensuring minority – including Muslim – rights in India more urgent. This is truly a case where Gandhi’s dictum of “An eye for an eye makes the world go blind” rings true.
“i like to be polemical” – zach
🙂
That writer makes the point in Pakistan “generalisations people made about Christians (they cannot read or write Urdu, they are usually dark, ” , ust exposes how in Pakistan religious prejudice , skin colour prejudice reinforce each other.
BTW AR Rahman was born a Hindu. After his father died, his family fell into hard times and were converted by a Muslim pir. No one in India had taken objection to AR Rahman converting to Islam and some Hindus even say ‘if his spiritual progress needed conversion, so be it’ . Can any Pakistani Muslim renounce Islam and still be a part of the society , leave alone an outstanding success admired by all. When that day comes, Pakistan has come of age. Otherwise Afghanistan wannabee.
Renouncing Islam is forbidden for Muslims. This is not a Pakistan specific issue.
That is a cop-out. It is due to legal and social pressure. Anybody can do anything including renouncing a religion or any religion.
According to some Orthodox Muslims, the penalty for renouncing Islam is death. You can understand why people in Muslim societies would keep quiet about their lack of belief.
The point is that it is not Pakistan specific but rather a matter of Islamic doctrine.
Doctrine of religion is different from doctrine of running a state or society. Doctrine of Islam has prohibited interest on loans , has it prevented any Muslim from not taking mortgage
I have a suggestion for the bloggers. if you really want this blog to become popular and attract more insightful, witty and intelligent commenters, then you need to outgrow this India-Pakistan never-ending soap opera. This, and the other done-to-death Aryan-Dravidian debate occupies 90% of reading space on this blog.
There are many other interesting topics to talk about. If you are running out of ideas here are some from the top of my head.
1. Movies. Cultural and political impact of movies. Why does South Indian movie industry have such a powerful political impact but Bollywood has practically zero political value.
2. Literature. Can we have some discussion on vernacular literature of South Asia. Do we even know who are the current most popular writers in Hindi, Urdu, Bengali etc.?
3. Some posts on Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka. (there are more countries in SA apart from India and Pak).
4. I see lots of posts on Pak, but where are the discussions on its sub-nationalities? (Punjabis, Sindhis, Siraikis, Baluchis etc).
5. Sports. (or rather, the lack of it). Why do we fare so badly in Olympics?
6. Marxist movement in India. This is really one of the burning issue in India. I find total silence on this topic here.
7. Food.
In fact, don’t even bother writing posts on these topics. Just start inviting comments and I am sure more folks will start participating.
On the next Open Thread which I think will come tomorrow we can try to touch on these topics. I find that I am personally quite curious about 1, 2, 5 and 6 of your list. To all that I would also probably suggest a dedicated post to Bengaluru, its history, current affairs, etc. A post or a short event timeline in the history of American engineering covering the rapid growth of all major branches like computer science and engineering, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, etc. majorly in the last 50 yrs or so would also be helpful. But a Dr.-Razib-Khan-style masterpiece dealing with the historical development of any specific branch of the technology industry in one of the sunny vales of the mythical California would also be extremely highly appreciated. One on Indian twitter wars – the overall trends there, the culture, the languages, the junta, etc. – also might be interesting (I thank God everyday that I’m not on twitter; otherwise I would have wasted my time even more than now lol). Also, any old IIT alumni may consider writing posts on how IITs (especially Bombay and Kanpur) and their campus culture used to be before the pattern of exam changed from descriptive to objective. But above all things may be quite involved and require a lot of research perhaps.
“There are more countries in SA apart from India and Pak”– very true. I agree with you completely about moving on from the Indo-Pak squabbling and looking more broadly at the whole region.
[…] SC writes: […]
Who is defending Pakistan’s ill treatment of minorities? I’m certainly not. Housing discrimination is unacceptable, no matter who does it. Pakistan has many problems, many of which stem from its foundation as an exclusionary state. However, I don’t believe that the treatment of minorities in Pakistan justifies ill treatment of Muslims in India, despite “Hindu Rage”.
I cannot believe that supposedly rational people are advocating ethnic cleansing in 2019. “Full population exchange” is completely immoral and unacceptable. Partition was a tragic time and far too many people were killed or displaced. At least we can say that it was not state-sponsored, on either side of the Radcliffe Line. An exchange of populations would have been an acceptance of the Two Nation Theory. Surely you don’t mean to imply that Hindus and Muslims cannot live together in today’s India? If that is the case, than Kashmir should certainly be permitted to go its own way.
A couple of corrections.
> It is only South India and Bali that are structurally Hindu societies
Add Nepal and Orissa
> South India, the other great wing of India, is 90%+ Hindu.
You got this one seriously wrong. North India got rid of much of its muslim population during partition, but not South. The moplahs who rioted, the Hyderabad razaakars who fought Indian takeover – they’re all still here. From the Wikipedia article on South India: “Hinduism is the major religion with about 80% of the population adhering to it. About 11% of the population follow Islam and 8% follow Christianity.”
I think you may have it wrong here. Hindu revanchism – basically the cultural angst of the Brahmins riding piggy-back on Hindu revivalist ideas – is as much (if not more) against Islamicate culture, as it is against Islam.
Translating the Qur’an to Sanskrit and reading it in Sanskrit will be *far* more effective against Hindu revanchism than dissing Islam while promoting Urdu/Arabic etc. Think of what Romans did to Christianity – Hindu revanchists would love to do the same to Islam[*], even at the cost of becoming Muslim.
My two pence anyway 🙂
[*] Some Hindus were partially successful at this. They are now called Sikhs.
+1008
Incredibly perceptive observation by the wisest and smartest Pandit of Brown Pundits . . . Slapstik.
Why does South Indian movie industry have such a powerful political impact but Bollywood has practically zero political value.
Is the premise behind this question true? (I admit to not having followed local cinema at all since the early ’90s.)
Well sort of , but i think N-India regional industry does produce its fare share of state level politicians . I mean half of Bollywood is Hindu Punjabi where will they even win election LOL.
“Is the premise behind this question true?”
I thought it was obvious, wasn’t it? MGR, NTR, Jayalalitha and others have literally sang and danced their way to power. (Karunandhi scripted his way to power 🙂 )
You are right about southern actors gaining success in politics, something that has eluded their Bollywood counterparts. But the framing of your question seemed to indicate that the movies themselves had some impact on the political landscape. My mistake!
As for why this is the case, perhaps it is because local film industries are “rooted” in a way Bollywood isn’t. (Saurav indicates above that North Indian movie stars do see success at regional politics.) Indian politicians need to be able to communicate in the vernacular to stand a chance.
If we are branching out into other topics, I’m happy to talk cricket if anyone is interested. 🙂 (at the risk of pissing off the Americans on this blog.)
Does the sport really even have a future outside the subcontinent ?
Cricket doesnt really fit the entertainment template due to its non-Markovian nature. Players have to take decisions considering the future, and this just does not lend itself to the action-a-minute template of modern sporting entertainment.
I agree with Snake Charmer that there are so many more topics to write about.
But do want to comment on the current post which references the Dawn op-ed about treatment of non-Muslims in Pakistan. One of the stories in that op-ed is how a Hindu family was refused permission to buy an apartment due to various biases of the other tenants.
The reverse is also common in Bombay / Mumbai and in Pune. I can mention two personal experiences both of housing societies in Pune. At one, where I was resident, I was taking a walk with one of the managing committee members when he casually mentioned that the committee had long ago taken an informal stand that “…those kind of people” will not be allowed in. It was not difficult to guess what he meant. The second conversation was similar. I know from my own personal information grapevine that this is a common story. For instance, one of my wife’s friends who works in advertising was in tears about how difficult it had been for her to find an apartment in Mumbai. Once the apartment owner came to know her name, he would backtrack and find some reason to refuse. I think couple of years back, the scriptwriter Anjum Rajabali had faced similar issues.
This is not to say that the Muslim story in India is the same as the non-Muslim in Pakistan. They are not but the petty day to day humiliations and demonstrations of bias are common here too.
Zach wanted a link to the twitter thread on Vijayanagar . I think this is it https://twitter.com/shrikanth_krish/status/1094442243333734400
Not sure if the post is serious or just meant to get reactions since there seem just so many ‘baity’ things to react to.
Exactly. Housing discrimination exists in both India and Pakistan. Both are majoritarian societies. India is at least still formally a secular state while Pakistan makes no bones about being for Muslims first.
Apart from religion, there are of course other important institutionalized dimensions of differences with other Indians such as language, culture and of course caste. Given all this, in my opinion India is still not yet a majoritarian society but in a process of transition to one (unless the current political tides are overrun). Things can go South rapidly of course (Exhibit A: the USA), and the BJP has made inroads in regions where it traditionally fared badly, be it the North East or the South so we can only wait and watch.
In what specific way has the USA gone south?
K-12 education system?
Intimidation and violence against nerds and geeks?
Post modernism?
Growing physical health challenges (including but not limited to obesity), mental health challenges, intelligence challenges?
Challenges to competence, capacity and merit?
Values (I would include this under mental health)?
Are you critiquing America from another perspective?
I was referencing the fact that the Trump administration has managed to make it legit to be openly racial. And the Trump Administration followed the Obama administrations when it is possible people thought that with a black president, perhaps America had genuinely turned a new page. Perhaps they have, in the long run, but at the moment, it seems very regressive to me.
How does housing discrimination exist in India? What specific districts or states are you referring to?
The comment above mine gives examples of the difficulties Muslims face in renting apartments in Bombay and Pune. Petty discrimination against minorities exists in both countries.
Anan, housing discrimination is hugely evident in even the most cosmopolitan cities of India. It isn’t just a religion thing. The majority of hindus are from traditionally meat-eating castes and they are often excluded from renting in certain buildings.
Prejudice against Bengalis is pretty common in western India as far as renting is concerned.
Bevivek, are you certain about what specific people they did not want in? For example there are many Hindu Muslim marriages in India. How would they be treated?
Is the worry about terrorism or something else? Did they distinguish between Hindu tilted Sufi/Irfan vs convervative Sunni?
Mumbai has a large affluent successful muslim community. How representative of Mumbai can this be?
I don’t know as much about Pune (except that it is rapidly becoming rich and has lots of non Marathi people).
AnAn,
I know only from personal & anecdotal experience that this happens in Bombay, Pune and Ahmedabad (about this last I heard from an ex Ahmedabad wasi about which more anon).
It is true that Bombay / Mumbai has a large Muslim population. Bombay has always been a combination of culture / religion areas and cosmopolitan ones. Thus the Mohammed Ali Road – Byculla belt traditionally had a large Muslim population, Dadar – Parsi, Bandra – Christian, Matunga / King Circle – Tamil, Sion – Gujarati etc. This has changed somewhat in recent times based on land price movements and new areas opening up. In all these culturally / religiously homogeneous places would in general discourage the ‘other’ so that is to be expected.
But around all this certain areas were more cosmopolitan such as most parts of South Bombay, Bandra, Andheri, Chembur, New Bombay areas such as Vashi, Nerul, etc. I am talking of Muslims single or couple trying to get an apartment for rent or ownership in these general areas and facing issues.
Only recently (last 2-3 decades) has Pune acquired a less Maharashtrian population partly due to it becoming a manufacturing and IT hub.
Re Ahmedabad, it has been communally polarized for a while. Two of my friends, he is Hindu (Menon) and she is an Ismaili, rented an apartment. Perhaps because of his surname they didn’t face an issue. But when they came to know it was a mixed religion marriage, it became hostile. Their son Sahil got beaten up when he went down to play. They moved out some time later.
bevivek, this is shocking. Is this a lower middle class thing, middle class thing, or upper middle class thing?
What is the cause? Fear of terrorism?
And what types of muslims are discriminated against? Many Ismaeli are quite Irfan Sufi (which usually means interfaith) and or cosmopolitan and or non practicing. Only an idiot wouldn’t know the difference between sixer and Wahhabi, for example. Guess India has many idiots.
I am surprised to hear about Ahmedabad. What is the cause of tensions in Ahmedabad? In the last national election about 40% of muslims voted for the BJP in Gujarat. Isn’t this widely known? Surely a BJP voting patriotic Indian muslim isn’t likely to commit terrorist acts.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
“I was referencing the fact that the Trump administration has managed to make it legit to be openly racial. And the Trump Administration followed the Obama administrations when it is possible people thought that with a black president, perhaps America had genuinely turned a new page. Perhaps they have, in the long run, but at the moment, it seems very regressive to me.”
Can I ask what parts of the US are you most familiar with? Can your share your perspectives of them? The US is arguably the second most diverse country in the world after India (India is far more diverse). I am sure there are towns and counties with challenges in the USA. I don’t have experience with these towns and counties.
To be honest I can’t remember a single racist thing directed against me or Asians (that I observed) in the US. This is not to say it never happened. But rather that I regarded it as so irrelevant not to remember it.
A black friend recently told me that Asians have the best stereotypes of any American. Asians are considered nerds, geeks, geniuses, easy to get along with, low crime, hard working. This is a great assist to Asians (compared to caucasians, blacks and Latinos) in school, careers and business. And in dealing with police officers (who automatically assume that Asians are the victim or innocent.) Note that there are entire years where the US police do not kill a single armed Asian. And America has 21 million Asians. Statistically Asians are far less likely to be subject to police violence, incarceration, or commit crimes than caucasian Americans. For this reason police officers and Asians are friends in America. Asians are also considered “wimps”. Perhaps partly because the vast majority of violent crimes against Asians are committed by non Asians, Asians usually want more police protection.
Don’t get me wrong, I have seen many Asians get beaten up. But I attributed that to very intense American anti nerd and anti geek sentiment and jealousy rather than to racism. A ton of nerd and geek Jewish kids and nerd caucasian kids get physically assaulted too.
The large majority but not all the bigotry I have seen among Americans is anti Jewish. And it isn’t all simply jealousy. Asians are rich and successful too; but suffer less hatred from other Americans. Anti Jewish sentiment in the US appears to be rising.
I personally consider this a massive threat that needs to be dealt with. Otherwise the Americans who don’t like Jews will eventually turn on the Asians too.
The second biggest source of American bigotry after anti Jewish sentiment I have personally observed is male mysogeny against woman. Most of it subtle. I don’t want to elaborate on it now. I think males need to spiritually evolve to deal with it.
There is a problem with anti muslim sectarianism in the US as well. But it mostly manifests in the form of backing Islamists against moderate, atheist or ex muslims; calling people with muslim heritage Islamaphobes and so forth. Fortunately America is making progress in this.
Justin Trudeau and leading Canadian liberals warmly greeted Mohammed al-Qunun in Canada. [Until recently the left would have denounced her as Islamaplobe sectarian racist.] Another great example is the way that islamist leaning Linda Sarsour is becoming persona non grata among Hollywood actresses, starlets and the me too movement.
It helps that Keith Ellison and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar were and remain unapologetic liberal muslims who support reform, liberal, minority and ex muslims the world over.
People such as Maajid Nawaz, Irshad Manji, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Tarek Fatah, and ex muslims are growing in popularity and acceptance among the American and Canadian left. Note that the North American left and North American liberalism have bifurcated and are now quite different.
By contrast the Indian left remains far more regressive and anti muslim than the American left.
America also has a problem in how it treats black Americans. And it does not only come from the baizuo. There is a hard bigotry of low expectation. A continuous insinuation that blacks lack agency, power, intelligence and privilege. Some people cover this with the pretense that blacks need “help” and that they want to provide this “help” to blacks. But what lies under it is dark.
I have not met a single black American that was not opposed to the baizuo or caucasian intelligentsia. Sadly many Latinos and Asians are not that much better.
For example why is President Trump not demanding that black kids academically perform better in elementary school? How much of this is because of the bigotry of low expectations?
In many cases in the US, high academically performing black students are attacked by baizuo (caucasians) for being nerds, geeks, white, uncle toms, white washed, coons, and for betraying African culture (for wanting to become a hot shot computer coder versus getting a PhD in African studies).
The baizuo try to systematically attack authentic legitimate black leaders such as Glenn Loury and John McWhorter and rather use their power to portray baizuo collaborator blacks as the “real” and “authentic” leaders of blacks. The baizuo will put a black face in front of the effort for appearances sake.
However many black African Americans are standing up to them. Including many self described left, liberal, moderate and conservative black Americans.
This needs to be elaborated on later.
An An, I do not know if the communal bias in Ahmedabad and even Gujarat is a lingering residue of the past, because Gujarat was among the boundary states caught in the wars between the Islamic North and the more Hinduized kingdoms below (Marathas, perhaps Vijayanagar). This could also be a simplistic take since a lot of syncretic stuff did happen in such states (Bill Aitken’s Travelling in the Deccan points to some of that). But even in the 80s when I did part of my schooling in Baroda and was aware of goings on in the city and Ahmedabad to the north, there would be sudden curfews in these cities because of ‘communal incidents’ as the issue was delicately put in those days. Today I would presume it is mostly driven by the middle class but I cannot say for certain.
Thanks for your long post on racism in the US. I am not resident so I went by a lot of the comment originating from the US, from both left and right as well as press reports on increase in hate crimes. I was not particularly looking at crimes or racist bias against Asians but race related stuff in general. Some of these reports say that these are anti-semitic or anti-black such as https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46189391 . This corresponds to what you had also written I think.
Have written about this quite a bit. Including this one on American crime:
https://www.brownpundits.com/2018/06/04/is-american-culture-sharply-increasing-crime/
Written several about anti Jewish bigotry too. But that I am sure you know all about.
Why do you think anti Jewish anger and hatred is rising around the world? [India probably loves and respects Jews more than any other country. May Allah bless Bharat for this.]
Erratum in my reply. Bill Aitken’s book is Divining the Deccan and not Travelling in the Deccan.
“the Peacock Throne apparently cost twice as much as the Taj”
Nadir Shah carried off the Peacock throne but couldn’t take away the Taj.
Just goes on to prove investment in real estate is safer than investment in gold
LOL