A new paper, The Genetic Ancestry of Modern Indus Valley Populations from Northwest India.
Month: December 2018
Why AMT is far from proven and why it makes no sense for Indian history
In the recent podcast and its follow-up post, an argument has been made that AIT/AMT or more specifically the steppe migration into South Asia in the 2nd millenium BC is already proven by genetics and that there is no hope for OIT. It has also been insinuated that OIT is being propogated more due to politics and that there is hardly any data or rationale behind it.
While in my two previous posts, I have shown data that supports OIT, I shall again breach this topic but I shall approach it in a different manner and also bring in a lot more data that I have not touched in my earlier posts.
I shall in this post, explain why AMT makes little sense. In the next post, I shall present archaeological and genetic data that supports OIT.
I see that a lot of people outside India can’t seem to get why Indians are so opposed to the AMT as apparently it is most ‘scientific’ and is supported by linguistics, archaeology and now genetics. Let me just put it in brief why Indians like me oppose AMT .
Many Hindus have grown up with stories from the Mahabharata, Ramayana and the various Puranas. They have been told that this is the history of their ancient forebears. Most Hindus believe that it is history and they grow up being proud of this great heritage. And this has been happening since millenia. It is since millenia that Indians have been growing up with the stories of the Ramayana, Mahabharata & Puranas and of other Vedic literature. They have in the ancient period even spread this knowledge across the vast expanse of SE Asia where the indigenous people still perform plays based on these Indian epics.
It is a well-known fact that the Puranas stop narrating history around the time when the Guptas were about to become the pre-eminent powers in South Asia i.e. around 2000 years ago. All the history narrated by Puranas is therefore of a period earlier than 2000 YBP. It is also well-known that without the help of the Puranas a lot of ancient Indian history would be still remain unknown. That the Puranas have historical information is unquestionable.
However, the Puranas date the ancient events it dates events like the ascension of Mahapadma Nanda, the Nanda emperor – a historical person, from the reference point of events mentioned in the Mahabharata like the birth of Parikshit who was born during the Great War of the epic.
The Mahabharata event is believed to have happened in the 32nd century BC and there is a very strong consistent tradition behind it. Astronomers such as Brahmagupta, for example, have said that there is a lapse of 3179 years between the Saka Era of 78 CE and the Kaliyuga Era. The Aihole inscription of the Chalukya Emperor Pulakeshin (who defeated Harshavardhana), dates the inscription in both the Saka & the Kaliyuga Era. Kalhana mentions it as well though he seems to have fallen into confusion between Kaliyuga Era and the period of the Pandavas.
All traditional histories, whether it be the very ancient narratives of the Puranas or it be Kalhana’s Rajataringini (of Kashmir) or be it the Gopala Rajavamshavali (of Nepal) date their histories in reference of the Era of the Pandavas and the Kaliyuga.
And if that is not enough, as per the Epics and the Puranas, there are scores of Kings and leaders who preceded the kings of the Mahabharata period. In the Suryavamsha (the Solar Lineage), there is a list of 95 successor kings from the time of the Great Father of All, Manu Vaivasvata. Manu or Manusha is cognate with the father of Germanic people, Mannus. Therefore even his name is of IE origin.
Megasthenes, around 320 BC, relates and Indian tradition, which is no longer extant, according to which 6451 years and 154 kings have elapsed between the 1st Indian king, whom Megasthenes calls Dionysus, and Sandrocottus or Chandragupta. This Dionysus was none other than Prthu Vainya, who is said to lived even earlier to Manu Vaivasvata in the 6th epoch, while Manu Vaivasvata is the father of all mankind in the 7th epoch. Manu Vaivasvata is also the same person who is known in the Semitic tradition as Noah or Nuh (Arabic).
So all of this gargantum ancient tradition which is believed to be several thousands of years old and which has been handed down to Indians for millenia is to be thrown away ? Based on what ? What exactly have the Europeans shown that disproves of discredits this ancient tradition ?
William Jones in the late 18th century, laid the groundwork to bring down the great antiquity claimed by the Indians for their own history. He did this guided by the very ‘scientific’ belief of the enlightened Europeans of his age that Earth was only 6000 years old, so how the hell can the Indians claim such absurdly ancient dates for their history !
So in William Jones’ time began the effort by the British to cram down all of the ancient history claimed by the Indians from the time of Manu, in a timeframe not older than 2000 BC. It is in following this great tradition set by Jones, that Max Muller pulled out the date of 1500 BCE for the arrival of the Aryans. Ofcourse, in all of the ancient Vedic and Puranic or Epic tradition, which talks of great ancient events and personalities of importance, there is never a single mention of Indo-Aryans coming into South Asia from Central Asia or from anywhere else. Their sacred home and their sacred places are all in South Asia.
So, you want the Indians to believe that all of their ancient historical traditions which they have been handed down from their forefathers for thousands of years are of exaggerated antiquity and that they are in actual fact of much later time period and whats more so, the progenitors of this great cultural tradition of yours only came to South Asia in 1500 BC. Before that they were not here and all of your tradition that claims otherwise is worthless. It also does not matter that there is no mention of such migration in Indian tradition anywhere.
One may accept such a extraordinary proposition if it was based on some concrete data such as archaeological evidence. But where was archaeology in the late 18th and most of the 19th century when these theories were proposed ? Even after that, where has archaeology produced evidence of Indo-Aryan migration into South Asia ?
According to JP Mallory, who along with David Anthony is the leading proponent of the steppe theory,
The archaeological evidence for an expansion from the steppelands across historical Iran and India varies from the extremely meagre to total absence: both the Anatolian and the Kurgan theory find it extraordinarily difficult to explain the expansion of the Indo- European languages over a vast area of urbanized Asian populations, approximately the same area as that of Europe.
And,
This is indeed the problem for both the Near Eastern and the Pontic-Caspian models and, following the logic of this analysis, the Bouckaert model appears to be in the same boat. All of these models apparently require the Indo-European languages (including their attendant agri- cultural vocabulary) to be superimposed/adopted by at least several major complex societies of Central Asia and the Indus… In any event, all three models require some form of major language shift despite there being no credible archaeological evidence to demonstrate, through elite dominance or any other mechanism, the type of language shift required to explain, for example, the arrival and dominance of the Indo- Aryans in India… But all theories must still explain why relatively advanced agrarian societies in greater Iran and India abandoned their own languages for those of later Neolithic or Bronze Age Indo- Iranian intruders.
An archaeological supplement with a recent aDNA paper informs us thus –
This survey of the archaeological and biological record of southern Central Asia yields four important findings. First, contacts between the sedentary food-producing populations of the Namazga culture populations residing in Kopet Dagh piedmont and Geokyur oasis of southern Turkmenistan who likely established the outpost at Sarazm had little to no contact with populations residing in the southern steppe zone. Second, contacts between Bronze Age steppe populations and NMG V and BMAC populations appears to have been one in which the dynamic of cultural influence was stronger on the side of the well-established sedentary food- producing populations, and this resulted in the partial assimilation of these initial newcomers to the region both culturally and, to a lesser degree, biologically as well. Third, not all of those who emigrated from the north turned to farming but may have continued a semi-nomadic existence in the highlands, which were unsuitable for the kind of intensive farming practiced in the BMAC homelands or in the regions of Khorezm. Fourth, if there was any Central Asian influence on South Asian populations, that influence likely long predated any development of Iranian, let alone Indo-Aryan, languages, and most likely occurred during the late NMG IV to early NMG V period (ca. 2800–2300 BCE) and even earlier during the Eneolithic from Kelteminar culture groups (4000–3500 BCE).
So we have zero archaeological evidence of the so-called steppe migration of Indo-Iranians into Iran & South Asia and even in Central Asia, the interactions between the steppe people and BMAC was such that the former were assimilated into the latter groups (which would have led to them adopting the BMAC language(s)), yet we are to accept that the whole region from Iran, Central Asia and South Asia having some of the most densely populated and advanced civilizations of their time, simply just switched over to the languages of the steppe nomads (who are archaeologically invisible) in such a comprehensive manner that not a trace of the earlier languages of these advanced civilizations exist and what is ubiquitous today all across this vast region is only the language of these invisible steppe nomads. How Incredible !
To give you a perspective, around the same time, the IE Hittites and Mitanni ruled over vast kingdoms in Anatolia & Syria respectively, and that too for many centuries. Where are these Indo-Europeans now in the Near East ? Not a trace of them exists. Yet in South Asia (where the civilizational expanse was much vaster than in the Near East), where the steppe nomads are not even archaeologically visible, we are to believe that the IVC language became invisible while the steppe language reigned supreme.
So we have no archaeological evidence of even a trace of migration from the steppe when we would require a very substantial migration from the steppe to make such a major cultural, religious and linguistic impact on the IVC to make them totally adopt the steppe language and forsake their own languages. And we do not even have any mention of a migration in any of the ancient Indian texts which on the contrary claim a much greater antiquity of IE culture and tradition within South Asia. So why should we people of South Asian origin be compelled to accept this hopeless theory ? There is very good reason to believe that our history is being misinterpreted and our real history is being robbed from us. So why should we lie down and let them walk all over us ?
It may be noted that the very reason the Europeans started archaeological digs in the late 18th & early 19th century in the Near East which lead to the discovery of the great Bronze age civilization of Mesopotamia & Egypt was the mention of ancient Great civilizations in the Bible. So the historical memory preserved in religious texts is very important and not to be dismissed lightly. Moreover, the Bible and Torah are Semitic books written originally in a Semitic language that preserved a memory of Semitic people in Bronze Age Near East. We now know that Semitic speakers were widespread in Bronze Age Near East.
Similarly, the historical memory from ancient Indian texts can help us a great deal in reconstructing the early history of Indian civilization. According to the Vedic literature, the Saraswati region around Haryana and parts of Western UP was the Vedic homeland, and we may note that some of the earliest Early & Pre-Harappan sites such as Kunal, Bhiranna, Farmana, Rakhigarhi etc are now known from Haryana. The fact that this ancient memory of Indian civilization is preserved in an IE language (Sanskrit) should also give a clue that IE languages have a deep history in South Asia intimately connected with the IVC. This is just plain common sense. Or else, we would have to argue that the deep history of Indian civilization was noted by the IVC inhabitants in a Dravidian or some other unknown language and then with the invasion of the Indo-Aryans, they translated that knowledge into Sanskrit which is a bit of a stretch and is also unsustainable because the earliest figures of Vedic literature such as Manu are also early father figures in other IE tradition such as Germanic.
Finally, it may be argued that however dicy the arguments of AMT are and however little evidence there is to support it through archaeology or Sanskrit texts, genetic data has still managed to prove AMT.
Well, that is also not really proven.
We have aDNA from South Asia (dozens of them) that date only from 1200 – 300 BC i.e. well after the so-called AMT and they are mostly from North Pakistan.
We only have 3 Bronze Age samples designated as Indus_Periphery and that too not from South Asia but from Eastern Iran and Central Asia.
These 3 samples do have steppe-related ancestry but they have it less as compared to the Swat samples and many of the modern IE speakers from South Asia.
It has not however been proved that Steppe_mlba related ancestry was absent in Indus_Periphery and came into South Asia only after 1500 BC. It has only been proved that steppe_mlba related ancestry is found in greater proportion among Swat samples and among many of the modern IE groups.
But how does that prove that the extra steppe-related ancestry only came from the Steppe_mlba ? Especially when the y-dna marker of steppe_mlba groups R1a-Z93 is so clearly lacking in all the Swat samples.
And by no stretch of imagination can be assume that the 3 Indus_periphery samples are an accurate representation of the enormous genetic diversity that would have existed in the Indus civilization. Yet the research explicitly makes this assumption that Indus_Periphery captures the genetic diversity of the IVC. However, realistically, in all likelihood, there would have groups in the Indus civilization whose steppe-related ancestry was much higher than those of Indus_periphery. Therefore unless we make sure that such is not the case, how can one argue that the extra steppe-related ancestry in modern South Asia and in ancient Swat was because of a steppe migration,
-a migration for which there is no archaeological evidence,
-there is lack of steppe marker R1a-Z93 in Swat.
There is also little genetic evidence of steppe impact on BMAC and of BMAC genetic impact on South Asians.
All things considered, there is every reason from Indians and South Asians in general to be very skeptical of the AMT.
The Pakistani Myth that made us Great-
At our podcast over the weekend I expressed some reservation about genetic testing of ancestry. I do find that there is a peculiarly Indian & Hindu interest in ancestry and genetics that is otherwise absent.
I was struggling to articulate my precise hesitation until I read this wonderful piece on Ambedkar (I imagine Arundhati Roy is a direct descendant of this powerful tradition of dissent against South Asian classism).
Read what Ambedkar wrote on why Brahmins started worshipping the cow and gave up eating beef
The clue to the worship of the cow is to be found in the struggle between Buddhism and Brahmanism and the means adopted by Brahmanism to establish its supremacy over Buddhism.
Earlier in the book, Ambedkar introduces the concept of Broken Men, whom he describes as follows:
In a tribal war it often happened that a tribe instead of being completely annihilated was defeated and routed. In many cases a defeated tribe became broken into bits. As a consequence of this there always existed in Primitive times a floating population consisting of groups of Broken tribesmen roaming in all directions.
He also makes the assumption that
“Untouchables are Broken Men belonging to a tribe different from the tribe comprising the village community.”
Ambedkar’s third assumption is that
“Broken Men were the followers of Buddhism and did not care to return to Brahmanism when it became triumphant over Buddhism”
Now the genetics data sort of tells us that caste (and untouchability) precedes Buddhism to the arrival of the Aryans. I do believe that any community needs myths, as well as its history, to overcome its present. Continue reading The Pakistani Myth that made us Great-
Major General Akbar Khan
From Dr Hamid Hussain. A short note on Major General Akbar Khan (of Kashmir Jihad and Rawalpindi conspiracy fame)
Akbar Khan (1912-1994) was a Pathan from Charsadda area of Khyber-Pukhtunkhwa. He was from the pareech khel clan of Muhammadzai tribe that inhabits the village of Utmanzai. Akbar was from the last batch of Indian officers commissioned from Royal Military College Sandhurst in February 1934. Lieutenant General B.M. Kaul ‘Bijji’ was his course mate at Sandhurst and they became friends during their service. Officers commissioned from Sandhurst were called King Commissioned Indian Officers (KCIOs). Akbar joined 6/13 Frontier Force Rifles (FFRif.). This battalion is now One Frontier Force (FF) Regiment of Pakistan army. He fought Second World War with 14/13 FFRif. (now15 FF). This was a new war time battalion raised in April 1941, at Jhansi. In new war time raised battalions, officers and men were posted from different battalions, usually from the same regimental group. Lieutenant Colonel Arthur Felix-Williams, DSO, MC of 1/13 FFRis. was the first Commanding Officer (CO). There were fourteen officers in the battalion and Akbar at the rank of Major was the senior most of the four Indian officers of the battalion. Lieutenants H. H. Khan, Fazl-e-Wahid Khan and A.K. Akram were other Indian officers (Wahid won MC). Battalion was part of 100th Brigade (other battalions of the brigade included 2 Borderers and 4/10 Gurkha Rifles) of 20th Division commanded by Major General Douglas Gracey. Continue reading Major General Akbar Khan
Defending Hindu Honour from Liberalistanis
hi @sabizak I am a Pakistani. Let's talk about Islam's shitty and retrograde attitude towards women especially minority women like Asia Bibi. No "Liberalistani" will dare attack Islam, the cause of most problems in Pakistan. Very cheap shot at Hinduism btw
— Zac X (@XerxestheMagian) December 4, 2018
I have to go but I’m sharing about how I got schooled by Vikram on Twitter. This Pakistani lady made some derogatory remarks about Hinduism and initially I defended her right to do so.
However after a few messages with Vikram (I’m reflexively a TNT loving Paknationalist at my deepest core) I realised this lady was being munafiq.
At least Muslim culture doesn’t have visible markers of male ownership such as the sindoor or mangal sutar.
— Sabahat Zakariya (@sabizak) December 3, 2018
If Ms. Zakariya made the same tweet: “Islam is a primitive and backward religion for allowing Hazrat Asia to rot in jail” then and only then should she be allowed to make such derogatory attacks on India & Hinduism.
How nice it is to have a brown slave girl.
https://twitter.com/shonfaye/status/1069933893917270016?s=21
In all the regional news gags – the only one that features a PoC and white man is where she is giving him a shave. https://t.co/d8mq6V7gY9
— Zac X (@XerxestheMagian) December 4, 2018
I am going to write a short but important post about silent racism. This is the picture on Twitter about the “Piers Morgan revenge.”
- Nish Kumar has made waves in Britain because he talks about unconscious bias. Don’t call him Patel constantly. My name is Nish Kumar – so please stop calling me Nish Patel
- This has happened to me in the climbing club; I was mistaken for the only other Pakistani in it even though we looked totally different.
- After my Gandhi in the train moment last week I have realised the need for integrated coloreds to start speaking up and sharing their experiences.
- This not about moaning and whining as model minorities are trained not to do (especially in Britain- I can’t speak for trans-Atlantic brethren).
- There are two groups of coloreds in Britain; the Dharmic and Abrahamics. The Abrahamic colored population (Muslims) overdose on picking out injustices and have a penchant to fight the wrong battle (hijab is not a sign of feminism). The Dharmic minorities (Chinese, Hindu & Sikh) are only looking at getting on top of the economic pole. Both have taken extreme position in getting ahead.
- Now back to the picture on top. The gag is that Piers Morgan (a local British provocateur) tends to overrun and interrupt the local news channels so each of them made a gag about it.
- I’ve put the Moment thread after the jump but the only one to feature a coloured presenter is the one where she is shaving a white man. The rest of is white women (the only white men are Piers and the shaved chap).
- Now people might be saying that Zach you are simply over-reacting but this is what my Gandhi on the train moment taught me that no matter how posh, educated or rich one becomes there is a silent racism that weaves our society.
- The two are “co-presenters” why wasn’t it shown him doing her hair as an example..
- Now it’s not obvious nor is it all that pernicious but it is invisible because now people don’t say Paki anymore (I’ve never been called a Paki fwiw) but they think it. I’m not Orwellian, I’m not interested in people’s thoughts except inasmuch as it affects my life and then only then will I call it out.
- The reason I’m sympathetic to the right is that they at least vocalise their pride and racism so it’s actually much healthier to have a conversation with them. It’s the left that internalises it and then time & time again they need white male saviours to bind them together (Beto O’Rouke, Jeremy Corbyn, Justin Trudeau).
- In an increasingly multi-polar world the West needs the goodwill of its colored minorities to increasingly act as bridges to the rising civilisations of the East (India & China).
- Why do I applaud Priyanka Chopra (and I approve of all the 4 celebrity weddings in Bollywood this year except S. Kapoor’s frankly she could have done better but she’s simply too nice). but condemn the picture above? That’s because Priyanka has gamed the system by marrying a famous Hollywood star 10 years her junior. But I still note that it was the blonde blue-eyed Sophie Turner who captured the headlines because she danced the bhangra and wore an Indian suit.
Open Thread – Brown Pundits
Please keep the other posts on topic. Use this for talking about whatever you want to talk about.
Notes the emergence of “Indic civilization”
Note: This post is a supplement to the podcast below.
People get hung up on particular words a lot. This post is to clarify some terminology from my own perspective. It needs to make clear here that I am a semantic instrumentalist. Words don’t have power or meaning in and of themselves but point to particular concepts and patterns. If we disagree on words while agreeing on the concepts and patterns, the disagreement is semantic.
To give an illustration about the “power of words,” I have read works on “Western history” which begin the narrative in Egypt and Sumeria. As the centuries proceed, the focus moves north and west, and eventually, the Near East is excluded from the West. Clearly, most people can agree that the Near East is, and became, very distinct from what we term “the West,” but if our history is to deal with Northwestern Europe, it will start with the Roman period, and its roots clearly owe something to the earlier Near East. The reality is that the West that the histories outline developed much later (arguably after the fall of the Western Roman Empire), but its roots are diverse and broad, inclusive of Near East antiquity.
When I use the world “Indic,” please keep in mind that I am focused in particular on the civilization which had crystallized by the Gupta period across South Asia. The civilization which gave rise to concepts which form the basis of the Dharmic family of religions. Moving forward, and moving backward, this is the reference cluster of characteristics.
Continue reading Notes the emergence of “Indic civilization”
Let Shiva’s Holy Lingam come back to Mecca before we talk of syncretism
As a Pakistani I think Muslims can & should be more magnanimous to their host society sensitivities.
— Zac X (@XerxestheMagian) December 2, 2018
Interesting thread on Ayodhya with Ms. Gogoi, who is a Nehruvian.
Since Hazrat Asia is still in hiding my natural empathy for Pak, Islam & the Mughals is on the ebb. I won’t forgive Pakistan for this until they disproportionately compensate her and her family publicly for this illegal sentencing
I use to be like Ms. Gogoi arguing for the Mughal and Muslim legacy in South Asia. But these matters aren’t really very difficult to solve; let Hindu gods, rituals and ceremonies creep back into Muslim Holy Sites.
While I was waiting for last night’s podcast (which is proving to be very popular mA) to start I was listening to some nice Urdu music (to curate for the Sherbert Socialites) and listened again to Afreen Afreen. To be honest it’s not my cup of tea (I was especially moved by Kapil Sharma’s rendition of a sad Punjabi folk melody; the Persian in me yearns art to be always melancholic, tragic & nostalgic) but the first line in it is about the spectacular caves of Ajanta. I was a bit taken aback but the only way forward for a true Decolonisation of the Subcontinent is bringing back syncretism on both sides (Shiva Lingams have a place in Allah’s Abode before Mohammed smashed the idols).
Brown Pundits – Episode 3, genetics
The latest BP Podcast is up. You can listen on Libsyn, iTunes and Stitcher. Probably the easiest way to keep up the podcast since we don’t have a regular schedule is to subscribe at one of the links above.
Thanks to everyone who reviewed the podcast! Please leave more 5-star reviews. If this podcasts interests enough people I’ll be getting us on other platforms.