All white people are racist. America is racist. To deny this isn’t just racist, it’s irrational. https://t.co/2K2Kj9fnh0
— saira rao 🍉 (@sairasameerarao) November 16, 2018
I personally believe we are all racist, classist and *bigoted* to some extent.
It is our evolutionary makeup that prefers our *tiny* tribe to the whole mess of humanity and only something as powerful as religious belief binds us into a larger consciousness.
The West has been secular for a good century (maybe even longer) and the Western left has adopted a curious mix of neo-Puritanism and Platonism.
They want straight white men to constantly purge and guard their inner thoughts against any type of “ism.”
Thankfully our Brown pallour acts as a sort of shield since frankly the larger society isn’t particularly interested in what we have to say and furthermore we can’t be accused of privilege yet.
I see Western civ consuming itself over absurdities (even now a centre-right individuals knows how to police one’s thoughts on certain topics) while the Rest begin their long march onward and upward.
While angry and vocal Muslim minorities mingle with these left reaction; the Eastern powers (Chindia) are only growing by the day.
It may be small, it may be imperceptible leaps but the day will come when Lewis Hamilton will have his visa revoked for making such comments about India’s poverty.
China has already abandoned Western ideological scaffolding and gone back to some hybridised Confucian ideal of government.
It will only be a matter of time when India sheds so much of this false & imported secularism and adopt a Hindu framework of tolerance.
India’s majority greviance is that the Hindu majority are constantly making concessions to a Muslim minority while across the border Pakistan is reshaping itself. 5 more years of Modi and the Overton window will shift where Rahul Gandhi will have to cast himself a pukka and proper Hindu instead of some Nehruvian secularist/socialist.
Rahul Gandhi already has to visit temples and go on about his Brahmin credentials. Congress thinks the only way to compete with BJP is through “soft Hindutva”.
Secularism is one of humanity’s greatest achievements and it would be a shame to roll it back.
What exactly is a “Hindu framework of tolerance”?
I think Hinduism has a unique approach to tolerance; live and let live.
“Caste” while abominable in certain parts actually provides a good model for several different interlocking but segregated communities.
If Pakistan can be so brutalistic and tribal in the name of Islam; why should India reassert her ancient Hindu culture.
Pakistan should not be anyone’s role model (I say that as a Pakistani).
The caste system is disgusting (sorry I have to use strong language). People cannot be forced to stay in certain categories simply because of their birth. This is unacceptable in the 21st century. People can say that that is not what “varna” and “jaati” originally meant. But in practice, that is what it means today.
Is this an example of “reasserting ancient Hindu culture”?
https://scroll.in/latest/902406/hindu-mahasabha-asks-uttar-pradesh-cm-to-rename-meerut-after-nathuram-godse
Let’s name cities after Gandhi’s assassin! Because Pakistan and Muslims suck! You cannot be serious.
“People cannot be forced to stay in certain categories simply because of their birth. ” — But it’s enshrined in the indian consitutition. Tribes could change (and have changed ) their status in the past , now all want the backward tag.Given the benefits of reservation ,free education in IITs,IIMs , i doubt people would want to move to General Category. Today , i m aware of Only one SC community that wants to move out of SC (They are called Devendra Kulla Vellalars or Pallars in Tamil Nadu. They used to agriculturalists ,some even owned land and were wlabelled as ‘Depressed classes’ by the British which later became Scheduled castes. They were recently protesting in front of British embassy for unfairly labeling them as Depressed classes lol)
Sorry Zack, but the caste system is an abomination that has been and continues to be a blight on Indian civilization. If India really wants to take its place among developed world powers, caste has to go.
Indo-Carib, does caste exist in the Caribbean and Latin America?
Kushal Mehra (one of Hinduism’s greatest Atheistic thought leaders) says that part of the Indian problem with caste is that caste mostly does not exist among the middle class and urban areas. Being very self focused, they don’t realize or know that caste does exist among poor people and rural people. This is part of India’s disjointed irrational discussion about caste.
From what I’ve heard from both my family and Razib, caste no longer exists in the Caribbean (or at least in Trinidad).
A caste system absolutely does exist in Latin America, but considering there are few South Asians in Latin America, I think the point is moot. Unless you’re referring to Suriname?
I think caste can transform..
Zach, the post modernists are encouraging caste through affirmative action.
As long as this continues, caste will steadily worsen.
Do you favor eliminating all affirmative action except based on socio economic circumstances? [I would add affirmative action for sub-Saharan African immigrant students but that is another issue.]
Zack, tell me how ? I already wrote that it’s the govenment which is distributing caste certificates not some shankracharya from any hindu Mutth. If you ablish caste certificates, the SCs and OBCs will be the first to revolt. We have now Christians asking for reservations of Scheduled Castes converts within them. It seems that everyone commenting here lives outside of india (except me) and hence i see terms like “abolishing caste”, “immoral” etc.
td
+ 1008
Best comment of the day.
Caste is immoral in the 21st century.
“5 more years of Modi and the Overton window will shift where Rahul Gandhi will have to cast himself a pukka and proper Hindu instead of some Nehruvian secularist/socialist.”
I think you are over-estimating the change. Also, it will be pretty reversible. The present government hasn’t altered the education policy much. So it will continue to be the source of the next generation of liberals and their attendant little white lies about syncretism, secularism etc.
And since Modi’s whole popularity is based off economic growth, he can’t afford to piss off the posh Bombay, Bangalore, Gurgaon crowd that provides most of the money needed to run the country.
So some sort of compromise would be reached, as usual. RG might proclaim himself a pukka Hindu in UP but you might also have popular trans-eco-feminists-communists from South Bombay.
Essentially, a widening of the Overton Window.
Let’s hope that is all it is. Once secularism is destroyed, the genie can’t be put back in the bottle. Learn something from your neighbor’s experience.
>I think you are over-estimating the change. Also, it will be pretty reversible. The present government hasn’t altered the education policy much. So it will continue to be the source of the next generation of liberals and their attendant little white lies about syncretism, secularism etc.
On the contrary, the present government has been very keen on altering textbooks and education, which has been a long running policy for the BJP and RSS at this point. It turns that that those ‘little white lies about syncretism and secularism’ you’re talking about aren’t actually true and that the present government is very interested in pushing its own dogma in textbooks. https://scroll.in/article/901001/bjps-major-achievement-in-rajasthan-rewriting-schools-textbooks-in-the-rss-worldview
>And since Modi’s whole popularity is based off economic growth, he can’t afford to piss off the posh Bombay, Bangalore, Gurgaon crowd that provides most of the money needed to run the country.
He’s not going to piss them off, smooth brain. Economic growth can work in tandem with any type of nationalism, like it’s done all across the world. It’s a given that the moneyed class won’t be affected by any of those policies. They’ve tolerated the last 4 years of the spiral downwards to nationalism. They’ve even tolerated demonetization, so your idea that Modi’s reputation and popularity on economic growth is also questionable.
>I think you are over-estimating the change. Also, it will be pretty reversible. The present government hasn’t altered the education policy much. So it will continue to be the source of the next generation of liberals and their attendant little white lies about syncretism, secularism etc.
Actually, the present government is very interested in changing textbooks and the education system, which has been a long running policy for the BJP and the RSS. As it turns out, those ‘attendant little white lies about syncretism, secularism etc.’ you’re talking about are being swapped by the present government to push it’s own dogma on Indians.
https://scroll.in/article/901001/bjps-major-achievement-in-rajasthan-rewriting-schools-textbooks-in-the-rss-worldview
>And since Modi’s whole popularity is based off economic growth, he can’t afford to piss off the posh Bombay, Bangalore, Gurgaon crowd that provides most of the money needed to run the country.
How the hell will he piss them off? Economic growth can work perfectly in tandem with any form of nationalism as it has done all over the globe. If the posh crowd was going to get pissed off by Modi, they had plenty of time to do so over the last few years. But turns out, they don’t care. In fact, they don’t seem to care if their pockets are slightly stung because neither demonetization nor corruption dented Modi’s popularity. Turns out you’re wrong on that assumption too.
Mir bhai, Union HRD minister Prakash Javedkar himself said that not a single chapter in history books is rewritten in the past 4 years (so, the changes were made in the local school board books by the Rajasthan Governmemt not the Central Government)
https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/story/prakash-javadekar-new-education-policy-1350662-2018-09-27
Troll.in would find a hidden RSS hand even if they get diarrhea lol.
+21 td
Almost no text books (K-12 and college) have been edited. They are still full of post modernist marxist content.
td, what parts of India would you recommend a tourist visit?
AnAn, the north indian cities are having very high levels of PM2.5 at this time. If you are used to clean air of the west then visiting north indian cities during winters is definitely not good.
Besides, what are you looking for during your visits ? Hill Stations ? Slums ? Cultural Heritage (Temples, Mosques, monastaries etc) ?
Wow! When you disparage Scroll.in like that, you really reveal your own politics and then there is nothing further that can be said to you.
Yeah, i am getting now that i am at the wrong place. Nearly all commentators here are South Asians settled in the west. Their knowledge about internal affairs of india is very weak(not that mine is any strong 🙂 considering i don’t seem to understand the ‘culture’of most parts of India ).
There are plenty of people here who hate Scroll.in as much as you do. There are even Hindu Right inclined people on this forum. I however am not one of them.
Kabir Mian, i don’t really hate scroll.in but i do find nearly most Delhi/Mumbai based english language news outlet(left,right, whatever) are not exactly honest/grounded in their news reports. I find vernacular newspapers to be much better (e.g something like Dainik Jagran )
Referring to the news outlet as “troll.in” certainly suggests you have strong feelings about it.
States tweaking the syllabus here and there don’t matter. National Education Policy, RTE etc are what influence education policy majorly.
“He’s not going to piss them off, smooth brain.”
I admire the level of omni-science you’ve attained through your rigorous perusal of Scroll.
I really appreciate your deep concern for liberal values in India. It is hard to imagine the pain you must be going through at their gradual erosion over the last 4 years or so. Fascism must be fought!
If you do ever want to join in on a dharna at Jantar Mantar to protest the Assam registry or illegal construction on tribal land in Odisha, I’d be happy to connect you to the right people.
@Mir
So it seems I got carried away. Usually try to stay away from snarky comments but this is internet after all. Not very productive.
Just want to emphasize that there are various currents in India. ‘Spiral down towards nationalism’ is just one of them and it is not as linear as it seems. There’s federalism as represented by Mamata and Chandra Babu Naidu and there is localism as represented by Kejriwal. There is a strong western inspired liberal/cosmopolitan streak. There is obviously also a socialist/communist one as represented by Maoists and their sympathisers around the country, though it is on the decline. There are neoliberal cliches and there are capitalists as represented by startups, corporates etc.
One of them may seem to be ascendant at the moment but it is not necessary that it will win in the long run. I don’t know where you live or what you do but you seem to weigh one of these much more heavily than others. If your main source of news on India is Scroll or Wire then that seems like a natural narrative you’d lean towards. Or is it because of concern for your co-religionists?
Would like to understand why you have the PoV that you have.
For all that matters, the biggest fault-line may not be communal but regional. Consider the GDP/capita and HDI in the east vs north, west and south. Or caste based. Consider the recent movements by Jats and Patels.
Pak desert cultooz concerned about Indian liberal erosion LOLcopter.
Obv lot to show for in their own neck of the woods 😀
“5 more years of Modi and the Overton window will shift where Rahul Gandhi will have to cast himself a pukka and proper Hindu instead of some Nehruvian secularist/socialist.”
Hinduism isnt Islam or other monotheisms or even ideologies like fascism or communism or neo liberalism., It took 70 yrs to get this far(post independence,many centuries before that), it wont turn back in 5 yrs.
It isnt about learning from experience. It is about, “who are we”?.
> It took 70 yrs to get this far(post independence,many centuries before that), it wont turn back in 5 yrs.
Hold on a sec, weren’t you telling me yesterday that Hindus have chosen Hindu nationalism over sickularism and that’s actually a good thing? What made you change your mind?
Must be difficult to honestly debate for likes of you. Those who see and vote good and chose good and see it fail chose otherwise now , not so that they have now chosen to become scum, but to deal with them . Definition of good is to reach out for peace first before choosing the alternatives. That has been done already. If congress/left can honestly change and become honest brokers and address their concern, they might win again. As I said earlier, it is in nature of left to never admit to its failures. And judge everyone who rejects them as acting from bad faith.
Hindutva /RSS / BJP or what is derively called ‘Hindu right wing’ don’t have any serious alternative to the secular constitution of India . Hindu Mahasabha on the eve of Independence and in spite of large scale Hindu-Muslim bitterness , in which it was deeply involved wanted these Fundamental Rights – as reported by then US Communiques to Washington – recently declassified
http://contrarianworld.blogspot.com/2017/10/declassified-us-papers-shed-light-on.html
A communique dated January 3rd 1945, subject “Annual Session of the Hindu Mahasabha held at Bilaspur”. This communique details the new office holders of Hindu Mahasabha, Savarkar and Moonje were amongst 6 vice presidents. The communique enclosed “an article from the Hindustan Times of December 28th 1944, entitled “Fundamental Rights in Free India”.
The ‘Fundamental Rights’ that the Hindu Mahasabha enunciated sounded a lot like the Bill of Rights of US constitution. Sample these:
1. Citizens shall be equal before law and shall enjoy equal civic rights. There shall be no law of discriminative nature.
2. No citizen shall be deprived of his or her liberty of person except in due process of law.
3.All citizens shall enjoy the right of free expression of opinion as also the right pf assembly of peacefully.
4.All citizens shall be subject to public order of morality, enjoy freedom of conscience, and free profession and practice of religion and protection of culture and language.
5.The provinces of Hindustan may, where necessary, be redistributed on a linguistic basis. Religion, language and culture of minorities shall be respected and guaranteed.
6.The press shall be free and no measures shall be taken to hinder publication, sale and distribution of any writing or newspaper subject to the rules of morality and public order.
Even the much maligned “Hindu Right” even at it’s most emotional period opted for a secular regime
The Hindu right want to push for ancient Hindu secularism. Or loving, honoring and respecting all peoples, religions, theisms, philosophies. In fact they go further and say all religions are true or may be true.
“Ancient Hindu secularism”– what a laugh! Secularism is a modern Western philosophy rooted in Enlightenment Europe.
Proposing naming a city after Gandhi’s assassin is really secular. We should all trust the Hindu Right to look out for India’s minorities.
European Enlightenment classical liberalism is in many ways an offshoot of Chaarvaaka Darshana of Sanathana Dharma. In many ways it was a globalization philosophy versus an Arya one, since the ancient Sumerians (who most do not consider Arya) also had a similar free market capitalist limited government and rule of law system focused on freedom of art, business and thought.
The idea to limit freedom of art, business and thought; and to justify big intrusive government came from Abrahamic concepts of blasphemy, what today is called hate speech limitations, and divine rule.
European Enlightenment was a return to a type of global philosophy that was common in Europe, North Africa and Asia for thousands of years until the Church took over the Roman empire. It took a long time for liberals to transform Christiandom and Islamism into what we have today.
[Today most muslims do not favor imposing Islam on society (Islamism).]
Yeah sure, the Hindus invented separation of church and state. You really live in your own world, which has no relation to reality.
Kabir, Hindus have no “church”. In fact Brahmin Varna are frequently strongly discouraged from participation in Kshatriya Dharma (politics, national security, governance) because of the grave danger that poses to society. Brahmins are also suppose to live a life of poverty and not engage in business. Brahmins are suppose to focus on spirituality, education (including of the entire society), health care (of the entire society) alone; and leave business to Vaishyas and leave governance/politics/security to Kshatriyas.
Religion, spirituality and philosophy are suppose to be kept out of government and state.
Of course a Kshatriya or Vaishya might decide to become a Brahmin on the basis of effort, competence, capacity and merit. But in that case they are encouraged to renounce wealth, business, governance, politics and security. Similarly a Brahmin who chooses Kshatriya Dharma is suppose to stay out of religion, spirituality.
Parashurama [6th Avatar of the divine], although born a Brahmin acted as a Kshatriya. This caused major challenges and wiped out 21 generations of Kshatriyas.
One of the major reasons Varnas came to be was precisely to encourage separation of Church and State.
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“Separation of Church and State” to a large degree only makes sense in an Abrahamic framework. The issue doesn’t compute in most other major global civilizations, cultures and societies.
The definition of secularism is separation of church and state. I don’t know what you are going on about but it is not secularism.
“I personally believe we are all racist, classist and *bigoted* to some extent.”
Everyone is racist, classist and bigoted except for spiritually evolved people such as:
—Báb
—Bahá’u’lláh
—Fatimah and Ali; Hassan and Hussein
—Elijah, Elisha, Mary, John the Baptist, Jesus
—Nanaka and Gareeb Nawaz
—Buddha, Lao Tsu, Mahavira, Zaratutra, Krishna
Eastern philosophy believes it is possible to transcend all theisms (become atheist) and be free
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“It is our evolutionary makeup that prefers our *tiny* tribe to the whole mess of humanity and only something as powerful as religious belief binds us into a larger consciousness.”
There are many layers of theism far more subtle and pernicious than that. In the eastern way of thinking there are many levels of thoughts, or subtleties of thought. Our surface thoughts are not who we are. There is the subtle thought from which the surface thought comes (we only have the illusion of freedom and choice at the surface level since we are limited by the surface level thoughts available to us to focus on). There is the even more subtle thought from which the subtle thought comes. And so it goes on in many layers of subtly. These are the many levels of meditation, the many “heavens.” The Holy Koran broke this down into 7 heavens. Most ancient religions describe these seven subtleties of thought. Some (including the Buddhists) further break this down and find even more layers of subtleties of thought.
Only by transcending all the levels of thought (atheism or self realization or Moksha or Nirvana or Satori or Shunya or Tao or Kaivalya or self actualization or freedom . . . the word chosen to describe the concept does not matter) can we truly be free. Only then can our responses and reactions to external stimuli not be predictable . . . but truly fresh and new. Since we are aware and conscious every moment.
This is why to me atheism, religion, spirituality, secularism are all extensions of the same thing. When we grow in one we grow in all.
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“They want straight white men to constantly purge and guard their inner thoughts against any type of “ism.””
This can only happen through the spiritual, or religious, or atheist or secular thought. First understanding than adjustment. With understanding adjustment is automatic. We need deep understanding. This applies to all homo sapiens, not just caucasian males.
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“Thankfully our Brown pallour acts as a sort of shield since frankly the larger society isn’t particularly interested in what we have to say and furthermore we can’t be accused of privilege yet.”
“the larger society isn’t particularly interested in what we have to say” True that!
“our Brown pallour acts as a sort of shield” Not in North America. In North America only native Americans and black females or black LBGTQ have a sort of shield. Everyone else is an oppressor. In 2012, Latinos were promoted to oppressor in America. Asians are considered oppressors too.
“we can’t be accused of privilege yet.” I have lost count of the number of times I have seen Asians being accused of privilege, mostly by caucasians. The boat sailed on this long ago.
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“I see Western civ consuming itself over absurdities (even now a centre-right individuals knows how to police one’s thoughts on certain topics) while the Rest begin their long march onward and upward.”
True that!
Brown Pundits per har roze ayk hee khichRi paktee hay. Maza nahin aa raha. Kabhi kuch lazeez morgh shorgh bhi banaya karayn mohtaram…
“While angry and vocal Muslim minorities mingle with these left reaction; the Eastern powers (Chindia) are only growing by the day.”
I just saw a clip from the lion of the Pakistani diaspora (of Islamic heritage) Ali Rizvy. He said and I am paraphrasing . . . when European liberals fought for liberal values they were called the European enlightenment . . . when we [darkies of Islamic heritage] fight for liberal values you call us Islamaphobes.
English nonmuslims have backed Islamists againt moderate and atheist English muslims for a long time. This is immoral, wrong, and needs to stop ASAP:
http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/02/26/why-do-english-nonmuslims-treat-english-muslims-so-badly/
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“It may be small, it may be imperceptible leaps but the day will come when Lewis Hamilton will have his visa revoked for making such comments about India’s poverty.”
What happened to Lewis Hamilton?
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“China has already abandoned Western ideological scaffolding and gone back to some hybridised Confucian ideal of government.”
True. Zach, we need a series of articles on China at BP. I have so many other ones in process, that I would rather not write them. Razib could write them but appears busy writing other stuff. Can anyone else volunteer to write them. China is transforming the world in so many ways. And their philosophy, culture and religion is vastly better than post modernism.
It will only be a matter of time when India sheds so much of this false & imported secularism and adopt a Hindu framework of tolerance.”
Hindus do not believe in tolerance. Hindus believe everyone is divine (maybe not all the Chaarvaakas and Ajivikas). Hindus believe in accepting, loving, honoring and respecting everyone. “Tolerance” is a dirty word for Hindus. Hindus do not believe in the concept of “religion” or “theism”. Rather an open source open architecture platform on which all theisms, philosophies, thoughts and people thrive.
But yes it would be amazing if India gets free speech, free art, free thought.
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“India’s majority grievance is that the Hindu majority are constantly making concessions to a Muslim minority”
I think the large grievance is with the post modernists. Many say that India is the only place where Sufis and Shiites can practice their religion and live freely (I would add the US and Canada). Indians “LOVE” Sufis.
There has been simmering upset about the four ways India has backed Islamists against moderate muslims since 1947 (the short term objective was to stop millions of Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis from being killed in riots):
—LBGTQ (India kept restrictions on them to avoid charges on sectarian Islamaphobia) although India is finally moving on this
—triple Talat (India is slowly moving on this)
—Sharia law that harms Indian muslim females and Indian muslim LBGTQ (India is slowly moving on this)
—The First Amendment to the Indian Constitution that limits free speech to avoid offending religious (Islamic and Christian in practice) sensibilities)
India changing these four policies will do a lot to pacify the Hindu right.
One can go far in politics with good looks and an affable personality. Saira Rao has neither.
Harsh..0