Please keep the other posts on topic. Use this for talking about whatever you want to talk about.
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Alan
6 years ago
Razib, please talk more about Ydna R2(a2a1b2c3). It’s common in West Bengal, in telegu people, and Sinhalese.
Also, what do you know about mtdna M49? It’s common in Khasi tribes, an Austro Asiatic speaking tribe that are shifted towards the tibeto burmese and closely related to the Garo tribe. Are Khasi a sub group of the Munda?
AP
6 years ago
I might have missed this elsewhere, but what is the approximate Steppe/Iranian Farmer/ASI ratio in Dravidian speaking groups like the Telugus and Kannadas (across castes). Thanks!
It really looks like they’re trolling, after Razib went to the trouble of labeling the open thread “Brown Pundits” 🙂
Santosh
6 years ago
I was waiting like anything for an Open Thread!
I read somewhere this idea that the Dravidian practice of cross-cousin marriage system and the caste system may be linked in their origins. There they imagined that early Dravidian-speaking neolithic (farming plus rudimentary artisan) populations developed an intense cross-cousin marriage system to avoid admixture with high-AASI people. Caste also looks similar somewhat to me, as it also seems to have indications of ancient apartheid and things like high Iran_N in historical upper castes and high AASI in historical lower castes. So that is my first question.
Then, I read this idea somewhere that at least some of the professions that were associated with erstwhile fifth-varna-caste endogamous groups, like working with animal skins, butchery, etc. did not have the stigma attached to them in the most ancient of early historic India and only came about quite a bit after and because of the genesis and spread of the Shramanic religions of Buddhism and Jainism which emphasised non-violence in a somewhat extremist manner. How plausible is this idea? This is my second question.
I sincerely hope you knowledgeable guys respond! Thanks to y’all very much!
Which genes steppe/farmers had and what is their age? Txs.
Rehan
6 years ago
In regards to the question asked by these guys (kinda strange lol):
The ydna is an Iran_N haplogroup which entered India along with ydna L, possibly J2. They, after mixing with AASI gave rise to ASI and the Indus vally civilisation was in motion. As the Steppe people came, R2 carriers were either ‘forced’ to head east and south across the Ganges or as the Indus Valley and sarwasawti river dried up, R1a Steppe carriers joined R2 carriers and both headed east across the Ganges explaining its equal niches in aforementioned areas.
As for the Khasi, they were an austroasitic people who perhaps branches off from the Munda as the munda headed south. They then mixed with the tibeto burmese groups in Meghalaya and Assam etc which explains their clustering with the tibeto burmese Garo tribe.
Razib, please confirm or adjust; only true population geneticist can unmuddy the waters. M49 mtdna does seem to be associated with the Khasi. I’m I right guys?????
This Razib Khan, the bastion of south Asian population genetics and the pride of Bangladesh still hasn’t answered the association of mtdna M49 with the Khasi. Imma bout to revoke his desi card.
I don’t know but the answer would be once forever. It would stop all further discussions and many useless and baseless assertions. The argument has been going for 200 years, one short answer probably would resolve all questions but, it seems, someone’s interest is that this question remains open without any resolution. It would be enough only one day to resolve the most of questions it would not be needed to have genetics every week.
Milan: “You are not going to the Italian, Russian, or French front. You are going into battle against a new enemy – dangerous, tough, fearless and sharp. You are going to the Serbian front and Serbia. Serbs are people who love their freedom, and who will fight to the last man. Be careful this small enemy does not cast a shadow on your glory and compromise your successes.” was said about actual Serbs – what do you think you gain with this “Alexander the Great was a Serb” crap?
Silva, Serbia is one of the world’s greatest ancient civilizations. I would write more about it and add it as a Darshana of Sanathana Dharma; but I don’t know enough. There are many who come to Bharat from the far west in the ancient narrative story histories. Some of them are probably Serb. But I am not sure which ones are.
Serbian history and records were destroyed and distorted by Islamist Jihadis and the Church.
Milan, who were the ancestors of the ancient Greeks say 4000 years ago? Were they Serb?
Where did the Serbs adopt 360 degrees in the circle from? Where did Serbs adopt 7 days in the week from? To what degree did Serbs use procession of the equinoxes for measures of time?
Saurav, I have many genetics questions. I want every day to be genetics day so that I can learn.
Simon
6 years ago
Well done Rehan for giving a very detailed answer to Alans’s question on mtdna M49, the origins of the Khasi and ydna R2.
We are all dieing for Razib to add that Midas touch to put Alan’s question to rest. Perhaps, Razib has met his match with this set of questions? I am beyond upset to say the least. The above questions are something that all of the commentators want answered by Razib; Ydna R2, mtdna M49 and the Khasi tribe. Razib must answer these questions in order to maintain his status as the most acclaimed desi pop geneticist in science, otherwise, I’m giving the title to Rehan who gave an answer that a true pop geneticist would be proud of.
Thanks Razib, I am merely a spectator from Singapore but was on the verge of suicide when I thought you would never answer Alan’s question or affirm/deny Rehan’s answer. Just to read my desi brethren dieing from thirst, not for clean water that desiland needs, but a thirst for knowledge; to know the truth behind the infamous ydna R2, the mysterious mtdna M49, and the Khasi.
India/Pakistan/Bangladesh must be satiated not by food but this very knowledge that my fellow brown pundits are dieing due to the lack of.
I believe that the answer on my question, because of its high profile and all previous history, would be a Nobel prize caliber. At least, it would be a world premiere and heard in every corner of the world what would significantly increase the commercial value of BP (if sold).
Kurgan
6 years ago
Hey guys, it’s literally 1:30 am in Tokyo right now; I’m in Shibuya. Razib, just do an article on this thing- it’s all these guys have commented on. May I suggest you do a section on ydna R2a2, the brother/cousin of R1a1; section on mtdna M49 which, looking at the comments seem to be common in Bangladeshi folks, and a section on the Khasi tribe, we all know enough about Munda influence, but I think for Bengali people, the Munda signal may have come from the Khasi, which might have acted as an avenue for not only the Austro Asiatic signature in Bongs but since the Khasi have admixed with tibeto burmese people on the NE Indian plain, they may have been the vehicle by with the tibeto burmese, and hence the greater portion of East Asian influence was mediated to Bengalis.
I hope this clears everything, and guys, chill out with all the begging, Razib has a family to attend to. But I wish for the sake of our brown community, his wider family to which he owes his allegiance, to whom we owe our loyalty; Razib it is your responsibility to answer the questions posed by our brothers- R2a2, mtdna M49 and the Khasi.
This article will be much more hotly anticipated than the rakhigarhi article, for we have been a people waiting for years. The rakhigarhi publishers has kept our people waiting for years to only now reveal, In piecemeal, but by bit, things about R1a1 which we already knew! But Razib will hasten to reveal to us things about ydna R2a2, a thing which we know little, NAY! But he will elucidate the mysteries, not of the sintashta people we know so much about, but the Khasi and their associated mtdna M49!
I just noticed this site, had been a reader of Razib Khan’s (the genetics, history, and reviews), started reading from the start, love what I saw, and think a bunch of you’d have great stuff to add there (they have their own scary-smart commenters). Thanks for the attention. (I think doing this in the Open Thread is fine – right?)
If I understand, it is not possible that one gene originates independently in two distant places. It originates in one place and disperse from there. The age of R1a1 will say if this gene moved from Balkan to Caspian Sea (and Iran and India) or in opposite direction. The most prevalent assertion in SA is that one stream of no name ‘steppe/farmer’ people moved to Balkan/Europe and the other stream (in same time?) moved to Hindustan…We are getting there…Nobel is smiling…it will be a big explosion…
Saurav
6 years ago
I humbly petition Razib to prove the Mundas as well as Dravidian as invaders to the subcontinent. So that we can all have a Dravidian invasion theory and continue our circle jerk.
Only what I can see here is a deep frustration. Not lees deep frustration is giving you his heart for every your comment. But, it is ok. In this Thread was on agenda very important readers’ questions to Razib as trained geneticist. From the depth of your subconsciousness you suddenly dug Lesander Karanovic (i.e. Alexander the Great). This is also ok, I was briefly writing about him in the past. I don’t know what is your intention or question. I can present (and I will) what is my knowledge of Alexander if there is some interest although I am trying to present topics which are common for EU and SA history.
I am clear about my statements, about my background and my motivations. What about you?
Re: Alexander – if not a Serb, who was he? Can you tell us what your background is? You do not need to tell us (probably no one is interested except your heart donor) why you accepted my assertion from the past so personally and so primitively?
So, it does seem there is a push towards synthetic fuels albeit from Biomass. As is usually the case, all of these should have been done decades ago if not earlier.
“Around 30 million tonnes of paddy stubble is generated each year in Punjab and Haryana in October and November.”
And “A tonne of paddy straw generates 112 kg of CNG..”
Also from the link, the investment required to set up a plant processing 10,000 tonnes a year is around Rs. 20 crore. Putting all the math together…
The investment required to set up the plants to process all of the 30 million tonnes of agri waste will be around Rs. 60,000 crores and the biomethane produced will be 3 million tonnes or around 3 bcm (billion cubic metres; at 0.9 kg/cubicmetre). India’s annual consumption at present being 50 bcm. So, essentially a drop in the bucket. Maybe a little more than a drop but tiny nevertheless. On the positive side, Rs. 60,000 crore isn’t that big of an investment considering it costs some 25,000 crores to subsidize fuel prices by Rs. 1 or the returns on selling the natural gas at market prices, selling the fertilizer or biomass briquettes that will be obtained as a side product, reducing the major cause of pollution in the national capital region and of course the usual benefits of jobs, additional income for farmers, reducing import bill etc. This is just for 2 states. It could be extended to others (also taking into account that its hardly possible to collect all of the agri waste).
D
6 years ago
Part 2
The push for bioethanol might be more impactful. Brazil seems to have some success (40% mixed with fuels at the pump) and the modest goal of 10% set by India is not unachievable.
Finally, this epic rant by Gadkari shows he has the right instincts perhaps. Though one does wish at least some portion of the money he spend on doubling or tripling roads were invested in BTL/BTG (Biomass To Liquid fuels/ Biomass to Gas) infrastructure instead.
Razib, please talk more about Ydna R2(a2a1b2c3). It’s common in West Bengal, in telegu people, and Sinhalese.
Also, what do you know about mtdna M49? It’s common in Khasi tribes, an Austro Asiatic speaking tribe that are shifted towards the tibeto burmese and closely related to the Garo tribe. Are Khasi a sub group of the Munda?
I might have missed this elsewhere, but what is the approximate Steppe/Iranian Farmer/ASI ratio in Dravidian speaking groups like the Telugus and Kannadas (across castes). Thanks!
High AASI, moderate Iranian_N, little Steppe.
That was a great question Alan, hopefully Razib can tell us more. I can’t wait to read what he says.
I second that Roshi, that was an awesome question by Alan. I can’t wait for Razib to respond.
are you guys for real?
It really looks like they’re trolling, after Razib went to the trouble of labeling the open thread “Brown Pundits” 🙂
I was waiting like anything for an Open Thread!
I read somewhere this idea that the Dravidian practice of cross-cousin marriage system and the caste system may be linked in their origins. There they imagined that early Dravidian-speaking neolithic (farming plus rudimentary artisan) populations developed an intense cross-cousin marriage system to avoid admixture with high-AASI people. Caste also looks similar somewhat to me, as it also seems to have indications of ancient apartheid and things like high Iran_N in historical upper castes and high AASI in historical lower castes. So that is my first question.
Then, I read this idea somewhere that at least some of the professions that were associated with erstwhile fifth-varna-caste endogamous groups, like working with animal skins, butchery, etc. did not have the stigma attached to them in the most ancient of early historic India and only came about quite a bit after and because of the genesis and spread of the Shramanic religions of Buddhism and Jainism which emphasised non-violence in a somewhat extremist manner. How plausible is this idea? This is my second question.
I sincerely hope you knowledgeable guys respond! Thanks to y’all very much!
Open Threads are weekly.
If you are already there…
Which genes steppe/farmers had and what is their age? Txs.
In regards to the question asked by these guys (kinda strange lol):
The ydna is an Iran_N haplogroup which entered India along with ydna L, possibly J2. They, after mixing with AASI gave rise to ASI and the Indus vally civilisation was in motion. As the Steppe people came, R2 carriers were either ‘forced’ to head east and south across the Ganges or as the Indus Valley and sarwasawti river dried up, R1a Steppe carriers joined R2 carriers and both headed east across the Ganges explaining its equal niches in aforementioned areas.
As for the Khasi, they were an austroasitic people who perhaps branches off from the Munda as the munda headed south. They then mixed with the tibeto burmese groups in Meghalaya and Assam etc which explains their clustering with the tibeto burmese Garo tribe.
Razib, please confirm or adjust; only true population geneticist can unmuddy the waters. M49 mtdna does seem to be associated with the Khasi. I’m I right guys?????
This Razib Khan, the bastion of south Asian population genetics and the pride of Bangladesh still hasn’t answered the association of mtdna M49 with the Khasi. Imma bout to revoke his desi card.
I’ll give you a ‘plus’ for the effort but you haven’t tried to answer my question – steppe/farmers genes?age? language (optionally)?
All Serbs
I don’t know but the answer would be once forever. It would stop all further discussions and many useless and baseless assertions. The argument has been going for 200 years, one short answer probably would resolve all questions but, it seems, someone’s interest is that this question remains open without any resolution. It would be enough only one day to resolve the most of questions it would not be needed to have genetics every week.
The (totally deserved) troll is strong in this one.
I am sorry, is this comment related to me? Could you please elaborate? Or maybe you are geneticists too and can answer my questions?
Milan: “You are not going to the Italian, Russian, or French front. You are going into battle against a new enemy – dangerous, tough, fearless and sharp. You are going to the Serbian front and Serbia. Serbs are people who love their freedom, and who will fight to the last man. Be careful this small enemy does not cast a shadow on your glory and compromise your successes.” was said about actual Serbs – what do you think you gain with this “Alexander the Great was a Serb” crap?
Silva, Serbia is one of the world’s greatest ancient civilizations. I would write more about it and add it as a Darshana of Sanathana Dharma; but I don’t know enough. There are many who come to Bharat from the far west in the ancient narrative story histories. Some of them are probably Serb. But I am not sure which ones are.
Serbian history and records were destroyed and distorted by Islamist Jihadis and the Church.
Milan, who were the ancestors of the ancient Greeks say 4000 years ago? Were they Serb?
Where did the Serbs adopt 360 degrees in the circle from? Where did Serbs adopt 7 days in the week from? To what degree did Serbs use procession of the equinoxes for measures of time?
[weeping intensifies]
We should have like genetics day or something, people will be allowed to ask questions on genetics on that specific day only
Saurav, I have many genetics questions. I want every day to be genetics day so that I can learn.
Well done Rehan for giving a very detailed answer to Alans’s question on mtdna M49, the origins of the Khasi and ydna R2.
We are all dieing for Razib to add that Midas touch to put Alan’s question to rest. Perhaps, Razib has met his match with this set of questions? I am beyond upset to say the least. The above questions are something that all of the commentators want answered by Razib; Ydna R2, mtdna M49 and the Khasi tribe. Razib must answer these questions in order to maintain his status as the most acclaimed desi pop geneticist in science, otherwise, I’m giving the title to Rehan who gave an answer that a true pop geneticist would be proud of.
i’m busy today. will get to it later….
Thanks Razib, I am merely a spectator from Singapore but was on the verge of suicide when I thought you would never answer Alan’s question or affirm/deny Rehan’s answer. Just to read my desi brethren dieing from thirst, not for clean water that desiland needs, but a thirst for knowledge; to know the truth behind the infamous ydna R2, the mysterious mtdna M49, and the Khasi.
India/Pakistan/Bangladesh must be satiated not by food but this very knowledge that my fellow brown pundits are dieing due to the lack of.
Kind Regards
Kalana
Why all the sucking up? Not that it’s not kind of amusing….
It’s some weird banter..
Sorry, just to add…
I believe that the answer on my question, because of its high profile and all previous history, would be a Nobel prize caliber. At least, it would be a world premiere and heard in every corner of the world what would significantly increase the commercial value of BP (if sold).
Hey guys, it’s literally 1:30 am in Tokyo right now; I’m in Shibuya. Razib, just do an article on this thing- it’s all these guys have commented on. May I suggest you do a section on ydna R2a2, the brother/cousin of R1a1; section on mtdna M49 which, looking at the comments seem to be common in Bangladeshi folks, and a section on the Khasi tribe, we all know enough about Munda influence, but I think for Bengali people, the Munda signal may have come from the Khasi, which might have acted as an avenue for not only the Austro Asiatic signature in Bongs but since the Khasi have admixed with tibeto burmese people on the NE Indian plain, they may have been the vehicle by with the tibeto burmese, and hence the greater portion of East Asian influence was mediated to Bengalis.
I hope this clears everything, and guys, chill out with all the begging, Razib has a family to attend to. But I wish for the sake of our brown community, his wider family to which he owes his allegiance, to whom we owe our loyalty; Razib it is your responsibility to answer the questions posed by our brothers- R2a2, mtdna M49 and the Khasi.
This article will be much more hotly anticipated than the rakhigarhi article, for we have been a people waiting for years. The rakhigarhi publishers has kept our people waiting for years to only now reveal, In piecemeal, but by bit, things about R1a1 which we already knew! But Razib will hasten to reveal to us things about ydna R2a2, a thing which we know little, NAY! But he will elucidate the mysteries, not of the sintashta people we know so much about, but the Khasi and their associated mtdna M49!
Now back to Tokyo!
Kurgi how u doin broz?
I’d like to link to an awesome article by a fantastic writer, about civilizational processes, with South Asia not on focus but already commented on:
https://www.ecosophia.net/america-and-russia-part-one-stirrings-in-the-borderlands/ .
I just noticed this site, had been a reader of Razib Khan’s (the genetics, history, and reviews), started reading from the start, love what I saw, and think a bunch of you’d have great stuff to add there (they have their own scary-smart commenters). Thanks for the attention. (I think doing this in the Open Thread is fine – right?)
the time of r1a1a-z93 is precious. r2 dasus…
If I understand, it is not possible that one gene originates independently in two distant places. It originates in one place and disperse from there. The age of R1a1 will say if this gene moved from Balkan to Caspian Sea (and Iran and India) or in opposite direction. The most prevalent assertion in SA is that one stream of no name ‘steppe/farmer’ people moved to Balkan/Europe and the other stream (in same time?) moved to Hindustan…We are getting there…Nobel is smiling…it will be a big explosion…
I humbly petition Razib to prove the Mundas as well as Dravidian as invaders to the subcontinent. So that we can all have a Dravidian invasion theory and continue our circle jerk.
pay me for my emotional labor, kufar dasus!
TO: Silva
Only what I can see here is a deep frustration. Not lees deep frustration is giving you his heart for every your comment. But, it is ok. In this Thread was on agenda very important readers’ questions to Razib as trained geneticist. From the depth of your subconsciousness you suddenly dug Lesander Karanovic (i.e. Alexander the Great). This is also ok, I was briefly writing about him in the past. I don’t know what is your intention or question. I can present (and I will) what is my knowledge of Alexander if there is some interest although I am trying to present topics which are common for EU and SA history.
I am clear about my statements, about my background and my motivations. What about you?
Re: Alexander – if not a Serb, who was he? Can you tell us what your background is? You do not need to tell us (probably no one is interested except your heart donor) why you accepted my assertion from the past so personally and so primitively?
This is a follow-up to the comments on synthetic fuels here https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/09/17/open-thread-9-17-2018/#comment-10039
So, it does seem there is a push towards synthetic fuels albeit from Biomass. As is usually the case, all of these should have been done decades ago if not earlier.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/energy/oil-gas/bio-cng-incentives-to-usher-paddy-stubble-based-green-projects/articleshow/66075576.cms
“Around 30 million tonnes of paddy stubble is generated each year in Punjab and Haryana in October and November.”
And “A tonne of paddy straw generates 112 kg of CNG..”
Also from the link, the investment required to set up a plant processing 10,000 tonnes a year is around Rs. 20 crore. Putting all the math together…
The investment required to set up the plants to process all of the 30 million tonnes of agri waste will be around Rs. 60,000 crores and the biomethane produced will be 3 million tonnes or around 3 bcm (billion cubic metres; at 0.9 kg/cubicmetre). India’s annual consumption at present being 50 bcm. So, essentially a drop in the bucket. Maybe a little more than a drop but tiny nevertheless. On the positive side, Rs. 60,000 crore isn’t that big of an investment considering it costs some 25,000 crores to subsidize fuel prices by Rs. 1 or the returns on selling the natural gas at market prices, selling the fertilizer or biomass briquettes that will be obtained as a side product, reducing the major cause of pollution in the national capital region and of course the usual benefits of jobs, additional income for farmers, reducing import bill etc. This is just for 2 states. It could be extended to others (also taking into account that its hardly possible to collect all of the agri waste).
Part 2
The push for bioethanol might be more impactful. Brazil seems to have some success (40% mixed with fuels at the pump) and the modest goal of 10% set by India is not unachievable.
https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/EvPfxXnADM6WPEVuGH7eoJ/Opinion–Biofuels-are-a-sensible-option-for-India.html
Finally, this epic rant by Gadkari shows he has the right instincts perhaps. Though one does wish at least some portion of the money he spend on doubling or tripling roads were invested in BTL/BTG (Biomass To Liquid fuels/ Biomass to Gas) infrastructure instead.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/gadkari-blames-dependence-on-oil-imports-for-economic-crisis/article25124973.ece
The state of academia.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/new-sokal-hoax/572212/