The government in Kashmir has fallen. What’s next for this troubled province?
As an aside my own preference is the LOC is a soft border between India and Pakistan. I don’t want any redrawing of the map whatsoever. I would rather Fawad Khan and Mahira Khan be able to act in Bollywood and Pakistani players play in the IPL. I can understand that for some Kashmir is a hot topic but I’m far too invested in Rising India as it is.
However if I see this post degenerate into low quality jingoism on either side; I’ll arbitrarily delete comments.
Comments are free but facts are sacred. If I see unnecessary emotionalism I’ll just remove it- the BP threads have turned into an Indo-PAK flame war and I have stayed my hand but in my own threads I’m going to be much more pro-active.
Here is a dispassionate analysis by Siddharth Varadarajan, the Editor in Chief of The Wire.in, on what the BJP-PDP coalition managed to achieve (or not achieve) and what today’s developments mean. He just lays out all the facts. He can’t be accused of being pro-Pakistani. He’s not even Muslim. It’s a 15 minute video. No further comments from me, because the facts speak for themselves.
https://thewire.in/politics/watch-whats-next-for-jammu-and-kashmir
Manoj Joshi in The Wire (he is from the Observer Research Foundation and definitely not a “pro-Pak” voice):
“A major reason for the BJP’s latest posture is that it has nothing to offer by way of a political dialogue, because it does not believe that autonomy is an issue. Actually, it believes that J&K deserves less autonomy than it has at present. To compound this is its messy Pakistan policy which has lurched from Modi descending on Lahore to wish Nawaz Sharif for his birthday, to ordering disproportionately heavy artillery barrages along the LoC. Instead of engagement, all we have seen with regard to Islamabad in recent years is a lot of global posturing on the need to fight terrorism.
Since the BJP runs the Union government at the Centre, it had a special responsibility for the state. For this reason, its participation in the coalition in Srinagar was a good thing. Now that it has pulled out, one this clear: From partial responsibility, the BJP now has full responsibility for the affairs of the state. But the big question here is: Does the party have anything more in mind than a straightforward military operation in the Valley? Or does it want to use Kashmir as part of its election strategy for the next Lok Sabha elections?
As things stand, the state could well be headed for an even greater tragedy than the one it has been afflicted by in the past 30 years.”
https://thewire.in/politics/bjp-has-scuttled-the-kashmir-coalition-but-it-cannot-escape-blame-for-the-tragedy
Nothing will really change on the ground. BJP was loosing ground in Jammu,PDP in Kashmir. Its a way to claw back support in their respective strongholds, presenting BJP as a “nationalist force” in Jammu to keep out Congress, and PDP as a martyr keeping put NC. That’s the plan.
What I read on Facebook from people living in the Valley is that this is a way to impose direct military rule and crush Kashmiri Muslims once and for all. Dark days are ahead in the Valley.
My father is in indian army and has been posted in kashmir since last 2 years. He believes that fear of guns will stabilize the situation. They won’t dare to throw stones at army as army kills unlike crpf. He was also posted in kashmir during peak insurgency in 1990s.He has kashmiri muslim friends in army who support pak and even they want azaadi. Jammu muslims r very nationalistic and believe in idea of india unlike kashmiris.
Thankfully we dont live under army rule
Let’s see what happens. PDP should have quit this coalition long ago. They should never have allied with BJP in the first place. How can a Kashmiri Muslim party ally with a Hindu nationalist party that actively hates Muslims? It was an unnatural coalition to start with. But the fact that the BJP broke it and not Mehbooba doesn’t reflect well on PDP.
Is BJP anti-Muslim?
Is BJP anti-Muslim?
Is this a serious question? They say nothing when Muslims are lynched, they applaud when the Indian Army ties Kashmiri Muslim men to trucks etc. The BJP is a horrible fascist party. There are no words to describe how evil they are. There was a BJP leader who spoke of “Ramzadas” and “haramzadas” (meaning Muslims). This party is out to destroy Nehruvian secularism and so far they are succeeding admirably.
Not to be funny but the BJP are more liberal than Pakistan’s liberal parties.
Not really. Pakistan People’s Party participates with Pakistani Hindus in Holi and Diwali. They would never call Pakistani Hindus “bastards”. Even Nawaz Sharif greets Pakistani Hindus at Diwali and he is quite right of center.
We are an Islamic Republic but we are not being ruled by a fascist party.
Zulfiqar included the Ahmadi amendment.
No political party seriously considers that the Pakistan should be a people’s republic etc.
Aasia Bibi?
That has to do with where the center is in respective countries. BJP would be more like PMLN (not JI) still, but PPP is no Congress.
The Ahmadi amendment was not ZAB’s finest hour yes.
PPP is not really a “liberal” party especially under Zardari. But it is the most liberal Pakistani party. Noon League is actually trying to be quite centrist. PTI etc are insane. No one actually votes for the religious parties.
It is true that no one who wants to rule Pakistan will ever suggest that “Islamic” be taken out of the country’s name. But BJP wants India to be a Hindu Rashtra. This constant comparison is very tiresome. Both countries are awful to their minorities.
A small anecdote on the ahmedi amendment. During the passing of the objective resolution, couple of hindu congress MP objected to its religious clauses. Zafrullah Khan rose to defend each and every religious clauses included in the resolution and asked the congress MP not to “worry” and they will be “taken care off”.
Karma is a bitch
>Not to be funny but the BJP are more liberal than Pakistan’s liberal parties.
Yes, the party which has leaders committed to a Hindu rashtra and subject themselves to ‘performance reviews’ by the RSS are more liberal than the ANP, AWP and MQM.
Saurav,
The Objectives Resolution is also very problematic. I’m not a blind Pakistan defender. However it was just the preamble to the Constitution and had no actual legal meaning. It was just a statement: “Sovereignty belongs to Allah alone”. It was General Zia who made it a substantive part of the Constitution. This happened during the dictatorship.
In case you haven’t guessed, I hate General Zia. I think Lord Voldemort is India’s General Zia. Except you all democratically elected him, ours was forced on us.
‘We are an Islamic Republic but we are not being ruled by a fascist party’
But what’s the ground reality, mate? Any comparison of the treatment of religious minorities in both countries is only going to go one way, and I think we both know which way that is.
Even a cursory glance at the number of people killed through lynchings, bombings and gun attacks in Pakistan in just the last few years is enough to give one the shivers
https://m.timesofindia.com/world/pakistan/a-dossier-of-the-persecution-of-minorities-in-pakistan/amp_articleshow/62379220.cms
I genuinely wasn’t aware that there’s a blasphemy law in Pakistan! Is this common knowledge to other commenters here?
Obviously, there is a blasphemy law in Pakistan. It is very badly abused. And Governor Taseer was murdered for saying that it should be amended. But you cannot insult the Prophet of God (peace be upon him) in an Islamic Republic.
Pakistan has deep-seeded problems. I wish it were a secular state, but it’s not up to me.
But if you think that justifies turning the Republic of India into a Hindu Rashtra, you are really dumb.
“The BJP is a horrible fascist party. There are no words to describe how evil they are. ”
Kabir’s ignorance continues to be a blot on this otherwise very valuable blog.
If “ignorance” is defined as an opinion that differs from yours than OK. But that is not the definition of ignorance in the English language.
I read the Wire.in and Scroll.in daily. I have plenty of evidence about the evil nature of the BJP.
Kabir this is exactly what people say about Islam- I think we should desist from such highly inflammatory language and respect the sentiments of our co-commentators.
Even if they support the BJP it doesn’t mean that they are fascists.
We all come to BP to learn not argue.
No, @Kabir, what is ignorant is your seemingly pathological tendency to make broad generalizations that are entirely unsubstantiated by facts of any kind. That you read Scroll or Wire is utterly meaningless, as is the fact that you have a liberal arts background (as you never fail to remind us).
What is the definition of “fascist”? What is your definition of “evil”? What metrics are you using to support your arguments? Look, assuming you get into the graduate program of your choice, you will have to learn how to construct proper arguments.
Here is a template: “I believe that the *insert party name* is fascist. Fascism as a political movement has historically been defined by X, Y, and Z. Here is the evidence that this party meets the criteria defined. Therefore *party name* can be properly identified as a fascist political party.”
See, not so hard, is it?
I may be accused of bias BUT:
Kabir calling the BJP fascist is his opinion however you are personalising it tbh.
I could be wrong / I agree that K can be quite provocative at times and I will call him out going forward but over here I find it hard to disagree with him.
I’m not thrilled with the BJP either it doesn’t mean there is something wrong with me.
>I genuinely wasn’t aware that there’s a blasphemy law in Pakistan! Is this common knowledge to other commenters here?
How are you genuinely surprised when even your bastion of secularism has laws to punish people who hurt others religious sentiments? It’s my turn to be shocked – at the cluelessness of Indian commentators here.
@Zack, you are missing the point. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just don’t see the point in such bloviation on a forum presumably meant to stimulate productive, intelligent discussion about South Asia at large. If I wanted to read such comments, I’d just scroll through the comment thread on India-Pakistan cricket videos on Youtube. Brown Pundits is meant to be a more enlightened forum. Assuming that this is the case, the moderators should do more to uphold the mission of this space.
This should not be construed as directed towards any particular viewpoint. I just believe that if someone is going to share their views, those views should be substantiated. Otherwise no one benefits.
My views are perfectly substantiated.
A party which talks about “Hindu Rashtra”, tells Muslims to “go to Pakistan”, stands by and lets Muslims be lynched, etc etc. is a fascist party.
If you can’t see that, it is your problem and not mine. You want Nehruvian Secularism destroyed, go for it. But then Bharat Mata will truly become a shithole.
Don’t ever question my intelligence. I think we all know who would win in that contest.
“This should not be construed as directed towards any particular viewpoint. I just believe that if someone is going to share their views, those views should be substantiated. Otherwise no one benefits.”
People say shit about Islam and Pakistan on this forum every day without ever “substantiating” their views. If there is “ignorance” on this blog it is from Hindu nationalist STEMMIES, not from me. I am probably much more educated on Social Science matters than the vast majority of you. At least I actually read India’s newspapers. You people seem to be incapable of keeping up with the discourse in Pakistan before commenting on that country.
Karan, thanks for sharing your wisdom and insights. What do you you think about Kashmiri Shiites and Sufis? How does the Indian Army protect Kashmiri Shiites, Kashmiri Sufis and Kashmiri liberal Sunnis from Islamist Jihadis without allowing Jihadis to claim that Kashmiri Shiites/Sufis/liberal Sunnis have betrayed Islam?
Many Kashmiri muslims oppose both the Islamist Jihadis and Indian Army; although they oppose and fear the Islamist Jihadis more. These Kashmiri muslims put up with the Indian Army without really liking the Indian Army. What is your perspective on them?
Sikhs ruled Kashmir until the English sold Kashmir to Maharaja Gulab Singh in 1846. How do Kashmiris view Sikhs now?
The Sikhs conquered Kashmir from Afghanistan. What do Kashmiris think about the Afghans who ruled Kashmir for many years.
Kashmiri Muslims dislike all the people who ruled over them. Among the most evil was the Dogra dynasty. They should rule themselves instead of being ruled by Hindus in Delhi.
Kashmir was an independent nation until it was conquered by Akbar. It should be an independent nation again. “India” is a totally artificial entity.
So is Pakistan – Not to get polemical but Kashmir doesn’t get an exception.
All provinces in The Subcontinent have strong national identities / I do think there is a huge “unity premium” to the fact that India is 50 nations welded into one.
Look at Africa if it had been one national continent it would have been a dominant world power.
All nations are artificial to some extent. Pandit Nehru promised the Kashmiris the right to self-determination in front of the United Nations.
India is killing Kashmiri Muslims as we sit at our computers and write. We will have to agree to disagree on this. I think Hindu India needs to leave the Muslim Valley. That is the only solution. Or give Kashmiri Muslims enough autonomy that they don’t care that they are Indian citizens.
“India is killing Kashmiri Muslims as we sit at our computers and write.”
Are you going to just sit on your ass and do nothing while India brutalizes your Kashmiri Muslim brothers and sisters? You are 32, in the prime of your youth, and yet instead of joining the Jihad in Kashmir you are thinking of going to UK for graduate studies. Go join LeT and cross over to Indian Kashmir dude. Whats the use of waxing so eloquent on the Kashmiri issue if you yourself are never going to take any action? Hypocrite much!!
BTW the chances that you will get killed while infiltrating the border are extremely high but atleast you would have cost India the price of a bullet. Right now you are worse than useless.
Janmejaya,
Your comment is so offensive. But for the sake of clarity, I have not now or ever believed in “jihad”. I believe in a non-violent and diplomatic solution to the problem reached through talks between India, Pakistan and Kashmiri Muslims. But that would require you to first recognize that there is a problem, which people like you are perhaps intellectually incapable of doing.
+1008 Zack!
All of Africa being super Wakanda 🙂 Yay!
There may be a “unity premium” but you cannot keep parts of your country with you using military force. What is happening in Held Kashmir is basically an Occupation. It is not technically an Occupation because– unlike the West Bank, which no country recognizes as Israeli territory– the international community treats Kashmir as a dispute between India and Pakistan. But you ask Kashmiri Muslims and they will tell you that the Indian Army is an Army of Occupation. There are signs all over Srinagar saying “Go India, Go Back”. This situation has now existed for 30 years. Murdering Burhan in 2016 was the point of no return for many Kashmiri youth.
Even if Pakistan were to somehow give up its claim on the territory, Kashmiri Muslims in the Valley will continue to fight Delhi. Delhi either needs to give them reassurances that Kashmiri Muslim culture will not be diluted by Hinduism or it needs to let them go. Dealing with Pakistan is a separate issue.
you cannot keep parts of your country with you using military force
Actually, we can; we have ample military force to hold the Valley. We had a short conversation on this a couple of weeks ago (sorry, I wasn’t able to follow up, as I have a day job can only intermittently check comments.)
Indians are just not in a place (psychologically and security-wise) where they will start to accept the idea of parts of the country breaking off, especially those that have been part of Indic civilization since prehistory (as Kashmir has, and the North-East hasn’t.) Kashmiris rebelling the way they are right now is only going to entrench Indians in their positions. And Pakistan supporting militancy (rhetorically or materially) only makes Indians more extremist when it comes to Kashmir.
I have to note that the Kashmiri secessionist cause is a curious one: it is rooted purely in an abstract right to self-determination (the equivalent of no-fault divorce among states.) There is absolutely nothing in the Indian arrangement or in practice that is oppressive to Kashmiris. No one is trying to suppress their culture or their language, or even their autonomy in framing local laws (to the extent a state in the Indian union is permitted to do so.) Yes, I understand that Army rule is oppressive, often brutal, and is treated as an occupation by the locals, but such occupation happened as a result of an out-of-control secessionist movement. There was no oppression to begin with, but militancy/rebellion has led to some oppression, as it would anywhere on the planet. Bangladeshis and Tamils in SL had many more causes of grievance against their respective states. There’s no core apparent “reason” why Kashmiris want to separate. If they stopped rebelling and if Pakistan started to mind its own business, the Indian Army and security forces would leave the valley with alacrity.
I say this as someone who is agnostic on the Kashmir question; I don’t mind if they eventually want to separate as long as they do not become a base for Pakistani or Chinese (quite likely for a weak Central Asian country) military activity. But Kashmiris will have to learn to be Indian before Indians will be willing to give them the choice of not being so.
The issue is not whether you are capable of keeping the Valley through military means. Obviously, you are. The issue is if this is moral. My contention is that it isn’t. Feel free to disagree.
“But Kashmiris will have to learn to be Indian before Indians will be willing to give them the choice of not being so.”
This statement of yours is the root cause of the whole problem. Kashmiri Muslims do not and have never wanted to be “Indian”. I am ethnically a Kashmiri Muslim, I know this for a fact. Even Sheikh Abdullah, “the lion of Kashmir”, only went with India because he was promised he could be Prime Minister of Kashmir. That autonomy was soon diluted and now Kashmir has a Chief Minister like every other place in so-called “India”. The Sheikh himself was jailed when he pissed Nehru off.
Mehbooba was just forced to resign. Everyone knows the Valley is ruled remotely from Delhi. Sorry, you cannot paper over the shit that you are doing to Kashmiri Muslims. Reality is a bitch.
I understand that if the Republic of India lets Kashmir go than many other parts of India like the Northeast will also want out. However, Kashmir was the only place where your tallest leader, Pandit Nehru, promised the entire international community that no one would made to be “Indian” at gunpoint. Sad to see that promise not being honored.
@Kabir:
Thanks for your response.
This statement of yours is the root cause of the whole problem. Kashmiri Muslims do not and have never wanted to be “Indian”.
Can you articulate precisely what the problem is with being Indian? (And let me clearly state that I’m no Hindutvavadi.)
You can (somewhat plausibly) make the argument that Kashmiri Muslims cannot feel Indian in a self-consciously Hindu nationalist India, but such an India has not existed until a couple of years ago (and even now I’d argue that the country is not Hindu nationalist by a long shot, and economic considerations drive elections far more than cultural ones. But that’s a separate conversation.)
Kashmiris were militating when the Congress (and assorted lefties) were firmly entrenched in the corridors of power, when the Hindu nationalists didn’t have a prayer of getting even a few seats in Parliament. If Kashmiris were so dissatisfied with being Indian during the times of Nehrus and Gandhis (who removed the hated Rajas from power, no less), what exactly is it that would satisfy them?
If your argument is based purely on the two-nation theory, then that’s not going to fly with Indians as our side never bought into that theory. We accepted Pakistan as a one-time compromise to keep the peace (and boy, were we optimistic!) We don’t want to keep doing it over and over again. If Muslims throughout India can feel Indian, what’s special about Muslims in Kashmir? Clearly, it’s not just a cultural feeling, as they mostly seem to have given up their Kashmiri language for the pan-Indian Urdu language.
Like I said earlier, you can demand a no-fault divorce if you want. But I can also demand an explanation and a justification.
Numinous,
Kashmiris just don’t want to be “Indian”. Many of them wanted to go with Pakistan in 1947. Hari Singh wanted an independent kingdom. When his hand was forced (the tribals invaded), he turned to Pandit Nehru for help. Pandit Nehru said “I can only help you if you sign the Instrument of Accession” so he did. Sheikh Abdullah chose India because he didn’t like Mr. Jinnah and he believed in Nehru’s land reforms. That’s pretty much it.
My argument is that a Dogra non-Muslim Raja has no right to decide anything for a Kashmiri Muslim populace. If you say that in the Princely States, the ruler was to decide, then India violated that very principle when the Nawab of Junagadh chose Pakistan. A sham “referendum” was held. The Nizam of Hyderabad wanted independence and India militarily removed him. Basically, you guys are hypocrites of the highest order.
Anyway, Pandit Nehru (your tallest and best leader) promised Kashmiris in front of the entire International Community that they would choose in a referendum. That referendum has never been held because you all know you will lose badly.
Non-Kashmiri Indian Muslims chose to stay in India at Partition. They had the choice to move to the Muslim homeland. They made their bed, now they have to lie in it. Some of them are doing very well and others not so much (Sachar Committee Report).
In summary, Kashmiri Muslims are demanding “azaadi” (what you call a no-fault divorce) and will continue to do so. Even the ones who are part of the collaborator class–the Abdullahs and the Muftis– come up with “self rule” and “autonomy” formulas. If you really want to solve this problem, just give devo max or autonomy. India doesn’t have to change its borders and the LOC can stay where it is. But Kashmiri Muslims are not going to be stuck with a whole lot of Hindus. You can keep Jammu (which is Hindu-majority). The Dogras of Jammu are quite happy to be Indian. Kashmiri Muslims hate your guts and the hatred only grows the more you mistreat them.
Even if Pakistan washes its hands of the whole affair and accepts the LOC (we will never let you have Azad Kashmir and G-B), you will still have an insurgency in the Valley. That’s reality.
Kabir, I don’t want to go into history. How familiar are you with Shams-ud-Din Shah Mir? He is the first “muslim” [maybe a Kshatriya convert from Swat] to rule Kashmir. Although most Kashmiris at that time were Hindu or Tibetan Buddhist (which itself is closely connected to Shaivite Siddha Naths).
Are you very interested in Kashmiri history?
How many times do I have to say that I am ethnically Kashmiri Muslim? I have a cousin named Shahmir. His father is from Muzaffarbad. These are my people you all are pontificating about. I really don’t care about History. I care about the fact that the Indian Army is denying my people freedom.
I am done here.
AnAn,
I plan to read “Baharistan-i-Shahi” when I have more time. Right now, I am focused on getting in to graduate school.
Obviously, since i am an ethnic Kashmiri Muslim (Kashmiri-Punjabi to be exact), the history of my homeland is of interest to me.
“Baharistan-i-Shahi, a Persian Manuscript history of Kashmir by anonymous author and brought down to A.D. 1614, has served as an important reference work for historians from the 17th century to the present day. But it has been inaccessible to the non-Persian knowing scholars and historians. Its first English translation is made from a collated text of the two extant manuscripts preserved in the India Office Library and the British Museum. Exhaustive footnotes have been added to it to make it readable and useful.
The chronicle begins with a legendary account of the creation of Kashmir and a summary treatment of the Hindu period. It is followed by a detailed account of the Shahmiri and Chak Sultans of Kashmir taking the narrative to the year A.D. 1614. The historical work gives considerable attention to Baihaqi Sayyids, a group of Sayyids of Iranian origin who played a significant role in the affairs of the kingdom. Baharistan-i-Shahi is essentially a political history of mediaeval Kashmir, though a few aspects of Kashmiri society, such as its feudalistic character, group and factional alignments, communal tensions and recurrent internal power struggles can also be gleaned from it. The concluding portion of the book throws considerable light on relations between the ruling Chak Sultans of Kashmir and the Mughals, and the final annexation of Kashmir by Akbar in A.D. 1587 in somewhat confusing circumstances. The chronicle is also rich in topographical detail. ”
https://web.archive.org/web/20120811170123/http://www.kashmir-information.com/Baharistan/index.html
Kashmiri muslims hate indian army (except some muslims in border areas like gurez valley). They hide militants in their homes and help them in murdering indian armymen in cold blood. Who do you think told those terrorists about movement of Aurangzeb. A handsome, brave and humble man was killed point blank by those terrorists.His beautiful face still haunts me . I have never seen a man so humble and brave in face of death. I just hope army delivers them to jannat soon and send their bodies to pak high commision as they r most likely pakistanis.
Karan, only a small percentage of Kashmiri muslim civilians hide LeT/JeM/Pakistani Taliban “militants in their homes and help them in murdering indian armymen in cold blood.” Otherwise Kashmir would look very different.
The Pakistani Taliban would attack many minority and liberal Kashmiri muslims if they got a chance; and Kashmiris know it.
The only way violence in Kashmir could be this low is because many Kashmiri muslim civilians secretly are informing the security forces about militants.
What are your thoughts about Sufi and Shiite Kashmiris? I believe many of them have fled Kashmir. The percentage of Kashmir that is Sufi or Shiite have dropped sharply.
The face of the soldier haunts you and the face of Burhan haunts Kashmiri Muslims. That’s why they need freedom from you and you need freedom from them. Then Indian Army soldiers or beautiful young Kashmiri men will not need to die.
Lol, then kashmiris shouldn’t do jihad as indian army has much more power and can airbomb them like Pakistan does to its own civilian population. Our army is ethical but it hasn’t got infinite patience. And kashmiris can never fight indian army. We have faced much worse and will never leave kashmir. We will break article 370 and 35A and make poor people settle in kashmir and change its demography like israel. Noone can do anything. Pak will continue to whine.
And there is no comparison of indian army men and jihadists who kill for establishing nijam e mustafa. Indian army is truly pluralistic. And indian army has impeccable record as you know through history. Kashmir is our land, kashmiri muslims can live freely like jammu Muslims or leave for pak where they can kill infidels among them and become more conservative than saudi.
Kashmir is MY land. I am a Kashmiri Muslim by ethnicity. My great-grandfather is buried in Srinagar. If it belongs to anyone it belongs to me.
“Indian Army has impeccable record”–tell that to the Kashmiri women you people have raped. Two words: Kunan Pushpora. Or one more word: Gawkadal. Kashmiri Muslims know the truth about you. Your delusions won’t wash with me.
Aren’t your ancestors Interlopers to Kashmir by your own admission(by just few generations)? How does it belong to you? It belongs to Kashmir is who have roots in Kashmir itself (including KP’s).
“Secular” Indian (you are not secular):
My paternal ancestors came to Kashmir from Iran, yes. But my maternal ancestors were always in Kashmir. They probably converted to Islam from Hinduism. My Nana was born in Srinagar.
In any case, the vast majority of Kashmiri Muslims are native to the Valley. And they all hate your guts. It’s not about me. It’s about Kashmiris not wanting to be part of a Hindu country. That’s the bottom line.
Narendra modi has actually severely castigated the so called cow protectors who r blood thirsty terrorists trying to quench their thirst of blood. So your statement is untrue. He also greets minorities on their festivals. On top of that, he has eulogised prophet Mohammad much to the horrors of hindu nationalists. Our current hindu nationalist president visits mosque wearing muslim cap on eid. Bjp which is a hindu nationalist party holds iftar. Even extremist rss holds eid ul milan function. So, yes even the most rightist party is much more liberal than most liberal party in pak.
Karan, some might accuse the Hindutva of backing some muslims (Sufis, Shia, liberal Sunnis, Ahmedis) against other muslims and encouraging a muslim fitna (not that I agree). How would you respond to this allegation?
>So, yes even the most rightist party is much more liberal than most liberal party in pak.
Your public enemy number one, Hafiz Saeed came out declaring that he’d defend Hindu temples (https://indianexpress.com/article/world/world-news/will-not-allow-hindu-temples-in-pakistan-to-be-destroyed-hafiz-saeed-jud-chief-2782088/) while the BJP built its platform on an illegally demolished masjid being reconstructed as a temple in UP. By your silly logic, even an Indian-designated terrorist is more liberal than the BJP.
I think you are a Kashmiri. If you are then are you from the Pakistan’s side or from the Indian one?
Lol, hafiz saeed??? tell me are indian muslims fleeing to pak? Pak hindus and sikhs do. So who is persecuted?And there is big difference in action and talk.Rss actually holds eid ul milan and has muslim rashtriya manch. The most extremist hindu organizations in india r only capable of beating couples on valentine’s day like vhp and bajrang dal.
Exactly. After destroying Babri, these Hindu Right commenters should die of shame. But they don’t have any shame.
I loved Nehru’s India. Lord Voldemort’s India not so much. Can’t wait to see a unified opposition kick him to the curb (where he belongs) next year.
Well,i can’t wait for temple construction. Mandir wahi banayenge!And narendra modi is great political strategist, much better than he is in governance. United opposition will never be formed as there r many cases of corruption and they r going to be in jail before elections.
Good luck to you. I hope you burn in hell. You cannot destroy an actual mosque because some mythological character was supposedly born there. That is not on.
Lord Voldemort is responsible for the deaths of Muslims when he was Chief Minister of Gujarat. I don’t care how many Eid parties he attends now.
The great Kashmiri Shaivite female saint Lalleshwari had many Sufi disciples and is part of the great Kashmiriyat tradition.
https://www.dailyo.in/voices/kashmir-sufism-pellet-guns-islam-rishi-violence/story/1/19542.html
How was Kashmiriyat evicted from Kashmir post 1946?
https://scroll.in/article/883299/bjp-s-allies-are-deserting-it-but-in-jammu-and-kashmir-the-party-has-a-clear-plan-in-dumping-pdp
???our gods r mythological characters. Well therre is ample proof that a temple was destroyed to crush hindu’s beliefs. If u feel that is right, then we will do what we do. I only remember god when i am in a problem, so i am not religious, still i wouldn’t call others god mythological characters and my own as one true god. Even if he was a mythological character, he was far better character than prophet and we will make a grand temple to promote our mythological god. Jo ukhaadna hai, ukhaad lo!
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) actually existed as did Jesus Christ. Ram is made up. Sorry to break it to you. You are really an idiot.
You r no moderate or rather there r no moderate muslims in pak. I have many indian muslim frnd and we joke about religion but they never say that their god is real and ours is mythological. You r just a pak nationalist islamist who has grand delusions of what pak and kashmiris r capable of. May your real god give you subuddhi.
I never said God was real. I said the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) actually existed in History. There is proof that a man by that name lived in 7th Century Arabia, whether he was a Prophet or not. There is no proof that Sri Ram existed. The Ramayana is Literature and not History.
I’m hardly an “Islamist”. “Islamists” don’t sing Hindustani Classical Music.
Also, I didn’t grow up in Pakistan. I grew up and was educated abroad. So your assumptions about me are totally flawed.
And kunan poshpora may be actually true as is rapes of thousands of women during 1971.It may be conspiracy too as kashmiris r adept in playing victims.But your jihadis have done much more. They have gangraped, killed and mutilated many pundit women. Google sarla bhat.
This is the reason the whole world is turning right and islamophobia is rampant. This supposedly moderate muslin who called me hindutwavadi(maybe i am) and our gods mythological characters and their places donot deserve to be worshipped and thinks mosque in its place is sacred. Well, invaders destroyed 47000 hindu temples, we are not asking for breaking every mosque. But that place is very important to us. It shouldn’t have been destroyed by rss hooligans instead we should have waited for court’s permission for its destruction and construction of our ram mandir.
“It shouldn’t have been destroyed by RSS hooligans”. Thanks for admitting that. But your Mr. Lal Kishan Advani led a “rath yatra” and destroyed a minority place of worship. This does not happen in secular states. Just call yourselves a Hindu Rashtra and end this nonsense.
I don’t support “jihad”. I support a non-violent and diplomatic solution to the problem.
It is a bit off-putting that discussions on this blog post are done as if BP is a political forum.
Agreed – time to moderate
Removing all off-topic comments / if u want to retrieve ur comments message me
I’m only eyeballing them so people can email me; if they feel I’ve been unfair. Only looking for qualitative not emotional content as per the requirements of the initial post
I see my comments are missing too, so I’m sorry if they were inappropriate. I thought they were on-topic; I was commenting on as well as inquiring about the nature of the Kashmir dispute.
https://www.indiatoday.in/Terror-groups-active-in-J%26K
Terror groups active in J&K
Once these guys and their masters are crushed 95% of Kashmir riots will be down. Any rational ethnic demands of Kashmir valley people can be accommodated within Indian constitution , and this includes Kashmiri Pandits forced out of the valley
Good luck to you. They want you gone. I don’t know why this is so hard to understand.
Kashmiri Muslims do not and have never liked Hindu Indians.
An American of Pakistani heritage who thinks anything outside US/Europe is rubbish is in no position to speak on behalf of Kashmiris. Those who don’t like Hindu Indians are invited to leave India for the benefits of sharia in other countries nearby.
I think I am now mentioning for the umpteenth time (or are you people truly incapable of reading?): I am ethnically a Kashmiri Muslim. These are my people you are talking about. My claim on the Valley is stronger than yours. My grandfather was born in Srinagar. His father is buried there. I’m not South Indian like you. There are lots of ethnic Kashmiri Muslims who happen to be Pakistani citizens. The Dogra Maharaja massacred a lot of people and drove them towards Sialkot and AJK.
The land belongs to Kashmiris (most of whom are Muslim). You cannot have the land without the people. Sorry.
Vishal, my definition of fascist is the combination of:
–nationalism
–socialism (also called national socialism)
–autocracy
–religion or strong idealogy
My definition of Nazi is a combination of:
–nationalism
–socialism (also called national socialism)
–autocracy
–German Indology (German study of Sanskrit, Hinduism, Buddhism)
What are everyone else’s thoughts?
Evil is harder to explain. I don’t believe that pure evil has ever existed and that everything is at least partly good, including Lucifer morningstar Shaitan. I also believe that the divine (love, transcendent, nirvana, satori, brahman, ishwara, Tao, Shunya, Purna, the force, Yahweh, the symphony of symphanies, meta narrative that transcends all meta narratives and universalist norms, nature) transcends all–including evil and good. It is all and is nothing; and both at once. It cannot be described.
This said at an extremely low level; evil is the lack of or permutation of love. And please don’t ask me to define “love.” 🙂 What are everyone’s thoughts on “evil”?
Vishal, thanks for asking for a definition of terms. Clearly defining terminology improves communication and understanding.
“How are you genuinely surprised when even your bastion of secularism has laws to punish people who hurt others religious sentiments?”
Mir, the Indian constitution needs to be amended to remove these limitations on freedom. They were put in by Gandhi and Nehru to placate Indian muslims and post modernists.
>Mir, the Indian constitution needs to be amended to remove these limitations on freedom. They were put in by Gandhi and Nehru to placate Indian muslims and post modernists.
Really? Just Indian Muslims and Post modernists? Was this guy an evil Muslim or evil Post-Modernist? http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-gauri-lankesh-was-anti-hindu-had-to-be-killed-chilling-confession-of-journalist-s-murderer-2622768
I condemn the assassination of Gauri Lankesh.
Gandhi and Nehru reduced the freedom of Indian muslims, (including Indian muslim woman) as part of their outreach to very conservative or soft islamist muslims. This needs to end. Muslims need freedom of art, thought, intuition and feeling now; so that muslims can safely engage in dialogue with extremists and end the 14 century Islamic civil war. The whole world will greatly benefit.
The world’s nonmuslims need to stop backing Islamists against good muslims now:
http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/05/19/congratulations-sajid-javid/
Get over yourself. You are in no position to tell Muslims what to do nor to define who is a “good muslim” as opposed to a “bad” muslim.
Stick to things that you actually know about.
Muslims have the right to freedom like all nonmuslims do. All humans have this right. Nonmuslims have to stop backing soft Islamists against muslims who want freedom, love and light.
There are many good muslims. I suspect Mohammed pbuh would have really liked Razib Khan and regarded him as a good muslim [here defined as someone Mohammed pbuh thinks is cool versus the modern definition]. Razib Khan’s theology appears to be seeking the truth and speaking the truth [in addition to being very cool]. Suspect that Mohammed pbuh would have preferred authentic honest intelligent no nonsense Razib Khan to most of the “followers” who surrounded Mohammed pbuh during his life. Mohammed pbuh was known as truthful by everyone, including his enemies. Mohammed pbuh valued truth. Omar would be another good muslim by this definition. So would many of the commentators at Brown Pundits.
Whether Razib Khan and other Brown Pundit commentators would have self identified as people Mohammed pbuh regards as cool is another matter and up to them.
When I think of Mohammed pbuh I think of someone who is chill and someone who is cool. Someone completely conformable with themselves at a very deep level. A self actualized man [or prophet if you prefer that phrase].
Again, you are no one to decide who is a “good” Muslim or a “bad” Muslim. Just stop. Who died and gave you this authority? You’re not even Muslim!
Razib (Mr. Khan as I shall henceforth call him) is not a Muslim. He has said so himself multiple times.
To be Muslim, you have to believe with sincerity that ‘There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his [final] Prophet’. That is the minimal condition for being a Muslim. Muslims don’t worship false idols, but only the one true God.
Clearly, you know next to nothing about Islam.
Gauri lankesh actually called hinduism a bastard religion and was very caustic in her posts against hinduism. While most hindus wouldn’t care and r easy going , there are bound to be nutcases whose sentiments got hurt. Don’t you remember charlie hebdo? Still no hindu organization is keen to be seen with killer and r trying their best to distance themselves from him in a so called ‘hindu rashtra’. Heck,islamists in india have lynched hindus many times due to blasphemy in ‘hindu rashtra’. I wonder why only cow terrorists r highlighted?and pls dont ask for source again, i actually read indian newspapers excluding scroll and wire.
So when your sentiments get hurt, it’s OK to assassinate someone? Good to know the level of your thinking.
I have clearly stated that he is a nutcase.
“I have clearly stated that he is a nutcase”. Right, but when it’s a Muslim who does it, he’s not a “nutcase” but there is some inherent problem with Islam. Double standards much?
I don’t endorse attack on gauri lankesh. But even moderate muslims like rising kashmir editor shujaat bukhari endorsed it by saying that a line should be drawn. I support freedom of expression of gauri lankesh.
It turns out the killer of Gauri Lankesh is not acting alone. He was hired by some organization that paid him Rs. 13,000 to pull the trigger. Again this is from news paper reports.
First of all “moderate Muslim” is a very stupid term. It implies that the rest of us aren’t “moderate”.
Second, I highly doubt Shujaat Bhukari would ever call for anyone to be murdered.
> there are bound to be nutcases whose sentiments got hurt.
…Yes, Hindu nutcases. Not post-modernist. Not Muslim. Hindu. You figured it out yourself. Don’t know why you decided to reply to me, bright spark.
>Still no hindu organization is keen to be seen with killer and r trying their best to distance themselves from him in a so called ‘hindu rashtra’.
No Hindu organisation besides the one which is trying to raise funds for the killer.
https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/160618/gauri-lankesh-murder-fund-wagmare-family-says-sri-ram-sene.html
And before you start making this look like some lone wolf attack, cops already claim that the same gun used to murder Gauri was used to kill Kalburgi in 2017 and a different person carried out the first attack and that the suspects arrested in connection with Gauri’s murder were part of this one fanatical group.
More than 40 journalists have been killed in India since 1992, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists. Most of these were probably not killed by Muslims.
I just commented this on Anan’s new defensive post about the “postmodern” conspiracy to lower India’s Press Freedom ranking.
“Unless there is concurrent and uninterrupted dialogue between Delhi and Srinagar, and Delhi and Islamabad, there is not even a remote chance that any sign of sustainable peace will emerge. And if any other unholy alliance is forged, future will be bleak and a re-run of the past. The Governor is a familiar figure in Kashmir as familiar as the viceroy was in Pre-47 India. He is there always, sometimes active behind the shadows, and sometimes, like now, working out there in the open. There will be no dirge on the coalition. That had begun the day it took off.”
http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/opinion/the-end-of-mis-alliance/288403.html
If you want to know the obstacles present in the path of india to implement UN resolution on kashmir, here is a very enlightening video,
https://youtu.be/_aoYNQrOOu0
“It is a safe bet that Governor Vohra, who is a stickler for constitutionality, would have allowed her to continue governing till she was defeated in the assembly. Mehbooba could, therefore, have ruled, now no longer hamstrung by the BJP, for several more months and taken a slew of initiatives, like the freeing of stone pelters and other political dissidents, offering a general amnesty to all militants who had surrendered, or were willing to surrender arms, and opening contact with the Hurriyat and other “separatist” groups to secure their help in ending the militancy and the reign of terror in the valley.
Faced with the failure of their plan, the BJP would have been forced to take more drastic action to remove her. This would not only have exposed its Machiavellian design, but also partially restored the legitimacy of the PDP and revived a middle ground in Kashmiri politics.
If Mehbooba Mufti is wise, she will use the two months’ respite she will now have, to explain to her party and the people of the valley why she, a Kashmiri nationalist, stayed so long in the treacherous embrace of the BJP; and what she intends to campaign for in the coming months. This must be nothing less than a full return to the commitments made in 1947 and enshrined in Article 370 of the Constitution, buttressed by the Delhi agreement of 1952. This is not only a reform that is achievable, having now been endorsed by every political party including, for one brief moment in 2016, by Prime minister Modi, but it is the best guarantee of peace for not only Kashmir, but India and Pakistan as well.”
https://thewire.in/politics/the-bjps-dangerous-end-game-in-kashmir
The slaughter of Kashmiri Sufis and Shiites–which caused many or most to flee Kashmir–is a terrible tragedy.
The Dogra Maharaja slaughtered Kashmiri Muslims in 1947.
In any case, Kashmir was Muslim majority since the 15th century (Wikipedia it).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-44641930
This was suspected all along, who else has the desire to kill any independent Kashmiri journalist ?